Your rights in a PF area if you couldn't buy a 1st class ticket (aka what if only the standard ticket is available)

[.n]

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So as above, in an area that is notionally a PF area, the entire journey does have 1st class on (I think all) trains.

There is a valid ticket Saver in old parlance (so the off peak 1 month Return) - this is available as a Standard fare - I can can find out how to buy this variation.

What is the practical upshot if I travel 1st class, and want the equivalent ticket - this is not available from any obvious method, that I can can see / have checked.

Is there some form of excess formula that a guard / ticket office can apply to sell me the ticket or is it legitimate to have fares for which there are no 1st class equivalents even when there is (advertised) 1st class along the entire route.

I'll be travelling when the ticket office is closed, its not available from a ticket machine, its not available from the TOC web site or app, and its not feasible as smartcard journey either. I think I would be covered against getting a Penalty Fare

4.1.3 Travelling on a train An Authorised Collector cannot charge a Penalty Fare to a person if. 1. there were no facilities available to issue the appropriate ticket for the journey which that person wanted to make;

I would just like to know how to actually get the ticket I want and/or method or working with the guard to to how to issue my ticket
 
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Bletchleyite

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Is there some form of excess formula that a guard / ticket office can apply to sell me the ticket or is it legitimate to have fares for which there are no 1st class equivalents even when there is (advertised) 1st class along the entire route.

Yes. There are very few First Off Peak (Saver in old terms) fares across the network. If there isn't a return that suits you have to purchase singles.
 

[.n]

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Yes. There are very few First Off Peak (Saver in old terms) fares across the network. If there isn't a return that suits you have to purchase singles.

Thanks for that - sounds incredibly stupid to make so that matching fares aren't available. I do have a slightly less ideal alternate solution, so I'll just use that instead. Just seems very odd to be a position whereby you can buy a standard but not 1st class ticket.

I suppose that in reality if I had tried without knowing I still would have felt that a PF wouldn't be able to be charged, and the 2 options then would have been 1st class Off Peak single or Std class Off Peak return. I always tell the guard when getting on that I want to buy a ticket anyway, so for me the possibility of a PF was academic
 

XAM2175

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Thanks for that - sounds incredibly stupid to make so that matching fares aren't available. I do have a slightly less ideal alternate solution, so I'll just use that instead. Just seems very odd to be a position whereby you can buy a standard but not 1st class ticket.
Theoretically you could write to the TOC responsible for pricing that flow and ask them to make the ticket available. I wouldn't hold my breath for a positive answer, but "nothing ventured" and all that!
 

Haywain

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Thanks for that - sounds incredibly stupid to make so that matching fares aren't available. I do have a slightly less ideal alternate solution, so I'll just use that instead. Just seems very odd to be a position whereby you can buy a standard but not 1st class ticket.

I suppose that in reality if I had tried without knowing I still would have felt that a PF wouldn't be able to be charged, and the 2 options then would have been 1st class Off Peak single or Std class Off Peak return. I always tell the guard when getting on that I want to buy a ticket anyway, so for me the possibility of a PF was academic
Are you making a journey for which a first class fare is available? If so, that is the ticket you should be buying. If the problem is that there is not an Off Peak first class fare then welcome to the world of first class fares where Off Peak options are still somewhat out of the ordinary.
 

Bletchleyite

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Are you making a journey for which a first class fare is available? If so, that is the ticket you should be buying. If the problem is that there is not an Off Peak first class fare then welcome to the world of first class fares where Off Peak options are still somewhat out of the ordinary.

This of course is because many TOCs don't like walk up off peak tickets, preferring a choice of Anytime or Advance. However in Standard they are required to provide those off peak walk up tickets so they do. First Class pricing is entirely a commercial matter.
 

[.n]

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Are you making a journey for which a first class fare is available? If so, that is the ticket you should be buying. If the problem is that there is not an Off Peak first class fare then welcome to the world of first class fares where Off Peak options are still somewhat out of the ordinary.

Depends on your definition of available, but yes there are are least a peak and and off peak single (but at fundamentally at 10p less than I would logically expect a return to be)that I can see - there are lots of combinations available, as its a journey with a lot of routing options

This of course is because many TOCs don't like walk up off peak tickets, preferring a choice of Anytime or Advance. However in Standard they are required to provide those off peak walk up tickets so they do. First Class pricing is entirely a commercial matter.
I see. Still seem strange to me as it is a reasonable time/distance journey, and as noted above there is a 1st class off-peak single too
 

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