ZEBRA 2 Discussion

[Llandudno]

How does the Derbyshire bid qualify as rural? Only a small amount of three of those services could be classed as rural* - indeed, the Stagecoach services that are actually rural seem to be excluded from those which will be operated by EVs.

Part of my is happy that we are getting EVs here, indeed quite surprised as Chesterfield normally gets older buses cascaded, but I'm also slightly concerned as the criteria seemed to indicate previous winners would not get priority in future bidding rounds, meaning there is less chance of the actual rural network getting funding in future.

I'm interested how the timetables will change as a result of charging requirements - the distances each vehicle operates on the X17 in particular meet or exceed the range of current EVs. Will we see 'short' services or passengers having to change vehicle? Or longer layovers in Sheffield if they are able to make use of the chargers recently installed there.

* I'd say the 1 beyond Bolsover, the 77 between Clowne and Worksop, and the X17 south of Chesterfield could arguably be classed as rural. The rest is very much urban.

I guess you could throw in a couple of trips on the 65 to/from Buxton and maybe the Peak Sightseer could be ‘electrified!’

Then there are also the myriad of electric bus services promised when (if) Peak Resort at Unstone ever gets built…!

 

[padbus]

How does the Derbyshire bid qualify as rural? Only a small amount of three of those services could be classed as rural* - indeed, the Stagecoach services that are actually rural seem to be excluded from those which will be operated by EVs.

It's not in London, therefore it's rural.

 

[Hyebone]

How does the Derbyshire bid qualify as rural? Only a small amount of three of those services could be classed as rural* - indeed, the Stagecoach services that are actually rural seem to be excluded from those which will be operated by EVs.

Part of my is happy that we are getting EVs here, indeed quite surprised as Chesterfield normally gets older buses cascaded, but I'm also slightly concerned as the criteria seemed to indicate previous winners would not get priority in future bidding rounds, meaning there is less chance of the actual rural network getting funding in future.

I'm interested how the timetables will change as a result of charging requirements - the distances each vehicle operates on the X17 in particular meet or exceed the range of current EVs. Will we see 'short' services or passengers having to change vehicle? Or longer layovers in Sheffield if they are able to make use of the chargers recently installed there.

* I'd say the 1 beyond Bolsover, the 77 between Clowne and Worksop, and the X17 south of Chesterfield could arguably be classed as rural. The rest is very much urban.

Oddly the 15, 16, 48 and 49 are excluded? Those certainly have stretches that could be considered rural.

 

[Teapot42]

Oddly the 15, 16, 48 and 49 are excluded? Those certainly have stretches that could be considered rural.

From what I can tell, the 15/16, 48/49, 65/66 and 157/8/9/60 are the only ones not the be electrified. Plus the 90 but for different reasons.

I'd assume because these are Derbyshire County Council contracts rather than commercial services. Certainly their main purpose is to serve rural communities, unlike any other Chesterfield services where anything that might be considered rural is coincidental to the route.

The 90 is excluded due to a low bridge at Barrow Hill, although it looks like the E100EV is low enough to get under. Whether this doesn't have the capacity for the route, or whether it came too late to be included I don't know. It might also be that alternatives needed to be specified and it seems to be the only EV low enough to pass under.

I guess you could throw in a couple of trips on the 65 to/from Buxton and maybe the Peak Sightseer could be ‘electrified!’

Then there are also the myriad of electric bus services promised when (if) Peak Resort at Unstone ever gets built…!

I'm sure the 65/66 could be electrified, but they aren't included in the bid. They certainly could convert the open top buses to EVs, it would give a strong message as the Peak District does seem to be pushing sustainability. Now the depot is being upgraded maybe that'll come one winter soon. After all, the buses themselves are getting on so even trundling around the Peak District they can't last forever.

From what I've read the services from Peak Resort will be a contract award, however this does put Stagecoach in a very strong position as they will already have experience and a suitable depot. That said, I'm a little surprised they didn't look to relocate the depot to Sheepbridge. The current site is much too large for their requirements and would be very popular for housing. Sheepbridge has lots of empty land, good power provision from the many factories that are / used to be there and would be an ideal location for a new, modern and cheaper to run site.

Like you, I wonder if Peak Resort will ever happen. It was starting to look promising when they stuck that awkward roundabout in, but I was reading they've scaled the plans back again so who knows. Main issue I have with it is that traffic will almost certainly head to the Peak District via Cutthorpe and the back way. No matter what they 'advise', people have sat-navs which will take them the shortest way. And even then, the route through Chesterfield struggles enough on a nice summers day. We really need a bypass from the west of town to deliver traffic either to the A61 at Sheepbridge or by Wingerworth, but I can't see that happening.

Any bus provision they make will end up stuck in the same queues as there is no real scope for bus priority, which will reduce the attraction of using it over the car.

 

[station_road]

There is a definition of what qualifies as rural on the application page

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...mission-bus-funding-zebra-2#rural-eligibility

Rural areas will be defined using the government Rural Urban Classification. This classification is used to distinguish rural and urban areas and defines areas as rural if they have a population of fewer than 10,000 residents.


For ZEBRA 2, LTAs should refer to the Rural Urban Classification and Rural Urban Classification 2011 lookup tables for local authorities areas, which classifies local authority districts on a 6-point scale based on the share of the resident population that resides in rural areas.

 

[Teapot42]

There is a definition of what qualifies as rural on the application page

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...mission-bus-funding-zebra-2#rural-eligibility

Of the areas served, only Derbyshire Dales counts as rural, and very little of the mileage runs there. The last couple of miles of the X17 from just outside Matlock to Wirksworth. Chesterfield and Derbyshire Dales - which compromise the bulk of the mileage in Derbyshire, and Sheffield, all count as urban. Either they are very lax and only a tiny part needs to be rural, or someone has pulled a fast one with this bid.

Edit - and the extension to Wirksworth is only funded for 3 years by BSIP money so no guarantee anything but an hourly X17 running about 2 miles in a rural area by the time the EVs arrive.

 

[Fox192]

I’m assuming Stagecoach Hull are going for BYD/E400 and East Yorkshire are going for Volvo with mix of double and single decks.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Of the areas served, only Derbyshire Dales counts as rural, and very little of the mileage runs there. The last couple of miles of the X17 from just outside Matlock to Wirksworth. Chesterfield and Derbyshire Dales - which compromise the bulk of the mileage in Derbyshire, and Sheffield, all count as urban. Either they are very lax and only a tiny part needs to be rural, or someone has pulled a fast one with this bid.

Edit - and the extension to Wirksworth is only funded for 3 years by BSIP money so no guarantee anything but an hourly X17 running about 2 miles in a rural area by the time the EVs arrive.

The key bit of the guidance (from the link above):

"To be eligible to apply for funding for ZEBs in rural areas:

• LTAs must not have received funding from the ZEBRA scheme already
• if a unitary authority, the LTA must be classified as ‘Mainly Rural’, ‘Largely Rural’ or ‘Urban with Significant Rural’
• if an upper tier authority or a combined authority, at least one of the local authority districts or combined authority members must be classified as ‘Mainly Rural’, ‘Largely Rural’ or ‘Urban with Significant Rural’"

Following the links to the look-up tables, Derbyshire is counted as "Urban with Significant Rural" - which thus means the rural definition counts.

 

[JD2168]

I’m assuming Stagecoach Hull are going for BYD/E400 and East Yorkshire are going for Volvo with mix of double and single decks.

Stagecoach might go for the Enviro 400 EV integral as the BYD version can be short on range
.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Stagecoach might go for the Enviro 400 EV integral as the BYD version can be short on range
.

Certainly most of the Stagecoach bids were clear that Enviro 400EVs - the new design currently starting to be delivered to Oxford - were first choice (with BZLs as the second option).

 

[Eyersey468]

I’m assuming Stagecoach Hull are going for BYD/E400 and East Yorkshire are going for Volvo with mix of double and single decks.

It hasn't been decided yet what EY will buy. Last I heard Go Ahead were getting quotes, presumably they will put a bulk order in as several Go Ahead op Co's were successful with Zebra 2

 

[Teapot42]

The key bit of the guidance (from the link above):

"To be eligible to apply for funding for ZEBs in rural areas:

• LTAs must not have received funding from the ZEBRA scheme already
• if a unitary authority, the LTA must be classified as ‘Mainly Rural’, ‘Largely Rural’ or ‘Urban with Significant Rural’
• if an upper tier authority or a combined authority, at least one of the local authority districts or combined authority members must be classified as ‘Mainly Rural’, ‘Largely Rural’ or ‘Urban with Significant Rural’"

Following the links to the look-up tables, Derbyshire is counted as "Urban with Significant Rural" - which thus means the rural definition counts.

Thanks, that explains it, but also possibly highlights a problem with how it was set up. Most councils of any size are going to have some rural districts. If the funding being applied for won't serve those districts then it seems a bit of a loophole. And as mentioned, I'd imagine Derbyshire won't be able to apply again for rural funding in future, meaning actual rural operations will now be harder to decarbonise.

I do wonder however, under their new MD Stagecoach do seem to be working with DCC to extract as much funding as possible. I wonder if they are planning to expand further in to more rural services, possibly with some of the vehicles freed up once the new EVs come online.

 

[Russel]

West Midlands

Staffordshire County Council - £3.1m in ZEBRA grant for 17 EVs - 11 double decks for Arriva Tamworth route 110

Any idea what these will be?

 

[43055]

Any idea what these will be?

Logically I would say a follow on of the Electroliner's at Leicester considering there will probably be another batch going there.

 

[Russel]

Logically I would say a follow on of the Electroliner's at Leicester considering there will probably be another batch going there.

Yes you're probably right, Electroliners seem to be the current go-to choice for EV deckers for Arriva, I can't think of any ADL EVs they have outside of London.

It'll be a nice upgrade to the current E400s used which are starting to show their age.

 

[joieman]

What happens if the number of buses, etc. is altered after the funding is allocated?

 

[Snow1964]

What happens if the number of buses, etc. is altered after the funding is allocated?

My understanding is the allocation is a financial contribution of £X towards Y buses.

The operator is free to add more of its own money and increase the quantity. But can't reduce it because effectively forfeiting the grant that was applied for. Can't just take the money and only order part of quantity.

 

[Mollman]

What happens if the number of buses, etc. is altered after the funding is allocated?

There has to be a negotiation. Blackpool Transport sought to reduce the number of vehicles in its award and thus the DfT reduced the amount it was awarded - I think the £ per bus did increase slightly though

 

[buslad1988]

There has to be a negotiation. Blackpool Transport sought to reduce the number of vehicles in its award and thus the DfT reduced the amount it was awarded - I think the £ per bus did increase slightly though

Probably because the cost of vehicles has increased since they initially won the funding too. Is there a time limit on when buses need to actually come to fruition? Blackpool seem to be dragging their heels.

 

[Eyersey468]

Probably because the cost of vehicles has increased since they initially won the funding too. Is there a time limit on when buses need to actually come to fruition? Blackpool seem to be dragging their heels.

I believe the vehicles have to be ordered by July 2025

 

[Man of Kent]

Probably because the cost of vehicles has increased since they initially won the funding too. Is there a time limit on when buses need to actually come to fruition? Blackpool seem to be dragging their heels.

It was alleged in the Sunday Times that Jo Bamford was challenging Blackpool's procurement process in court

Alexander Dennis/BYD Recall

Mod note: originally posted here - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-greater-glasgow.164437/ Please remember to provide links to your sources, as well as quoting the relevant points. Thanks :) I have seen articles in online newspapers, eg. Mail o line saying that ADL/BYD vehicles...

www.railforums.co.uk

which would slow things down a bit.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

It was alleged in the Sunday Times that Jo Bamford was challenging Blackpool's procurement process in court

Alexander Dennis/BYD Recall

Mod note: originally posted here - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-greater-glasgow.164437/ Please remember to provide links to your sources, as well as quoting the relevant points. Thanks :) I have seen articles in online newspapers, eg. Mail o line saying that ADL/BYD vehicles...

www.railforums.co.uk

which would slow things down a bit.

And isn't this the second time it's been challenged, as the first award to Yutong was challenged by ADL!

 

[Edvid]

ZEBRA 2 was among the topics covered in a House of Commons debate regarding ZEBs (UK-made or otherwise) on 21 May.

Hansard link

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @Edvid to update

 

[Edvid]

The deadline for making ZEBRA 2 orders passed almost 2 weeks ago. Of the 955 buses specified, here are 139 for which manufacturers are still yet to be publicly revealed, AFAIK (ordered or not):

Liverpool City Region CA - 58
Arriva - 45
Kinchbus - 21
Truro P&R / Falmouth Town Bus - 8
White Bus - 6
Lydney Dial-a-Ride - 1

Arriva's tally doesn't include their 25 (plus 2 extra) Electroliners being rolled out at Thurmaston for Midlands routes. Both these and the Stagecoach Yorkshire E10s / E12s based at Chesterfield have started to enter service, which is quite impressive considering the winning bids were announced not 11 months ago (followed by adherence to subsidy control protocols before any orders could be signed off).

----------

Meanwhile, over 750 out of approx. 1300 ZEBRA 1 buses are now out on the roads. Incredibly, around 260 are still yet to be ordered.

National Express West Midlands - 124 buses
These were originally set to be hydrogen. According to West Midlands CA board papers, in July 2023 the deadline for full delivery was extended to May 2026 and the 24 articulated buses for Sprint routes were formally changed to electric (para. 7.3 on page 22) by the DfT; a request to change the other 100 to electric was submitted in July 2024 (BSIP Retrofit Programme commentary on page 40).

Someone with links to the WMCA (or so they've claimed) said Sprint hydrogen artics were set out for procurement by their transport arm in December 2024. I can't make sense of that given the published documents.

Blackpool Transport - 90 buses
Ah yes - the bid where not only the original order faced a legal challenge and was rescinded, the following order faced its own legal challenge as well!

The council's transport policy was updated two weeks ago, and under "Supporting transport innovation" it says the first electric buses are scheduled to arrive in 2026. This heavily implies they hadn't confirmed an order last year, as does the ongoing lack of an ADL press release for Blackpool electrics.

Arriva Yorkshire - 47 buses
These were to be ordered for Wakefield operations... and then the depot had to be permanently closed. Aside from the operational headaches that no doubt arose, goodness knows how long it'll be until the specified funding is used or reallocated elsewhere.

On a more positive note, it looks like the 27 buses that Arriva Herts & Essex previously sought will, or have been ordered by Uno. 5 BYD B12s were ordered for their Hatfield inter-campus shuttle (some were seen at Stamford Brook recently) and I'd be surprised if the other 22 (possibly B12s as well) aren't ordered if they haven't already been.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

The deadline for making ZEBRA 2 orders passed almost 2 weeks ago. Of the 955 buses specified, here are 139 for which manufacturers are still yet to be publicly revealed, AFAIK (ordered or not):

Liverpool City Region CA - 58
Arriva - 45
Kinchbus - 21
Truro P&R / Falmouth Town Bus - 8
White Bus - 6
Lydney Dial-a-Ride - 1

Arriva's tally doesn't include their 25 (plus 2 extra) Electroliners being rolled out at Thurmaston for Midlands routes. Both these and the Stagecoach Yorkshire E10s / E12s based at Chesterfield have started to enter service, which is quite impressive considering the winning bids were announced not 11 months ago (followed by adherence to subsidy control protocols before any orders could be signed off).

----------

Meanwhile, over 750 out of approx. 1300 ZEBRA 1 buses are now out on the roads. Incredibly, around 260 are still yet to be ordered.

National Express West Midlands - 124 buses
These were originally set to be hydrogen. According to West Midlands CA board papers, in July 2023 the deadline for full delivery was extended to May 2026 and the 24 articulated buses for Sprint routes were formally changed to electric (para. 7.3 on page 22) by the DfT; a request to change the other 100 to electric was submitted in July 2024 (BSIP Retrofit Programme commentary on page 40).

Someone with links to the WMCA (or so they've claimed) said Sprint hydrogen artics were set out for procurement by their transport arm in December 2024. I can't make sense of that given the published documents.

Blackpool Transport - 90 buses
Ah yes - the bid where not only the original order faced a legal challenge and was rescinded, the following order faced its own legal challenge as well!

The council's transport policy was updated two weeks ago, and under "Supporting transport innovation" it says the first electric buses are scheduled to arrive in 2026. This heavily implies they hadn't confirmed an order last year, as does the ongoing lack of an ADL press release for Blackpool electrics.

Arriva Yorkshire - 47 buses
These were to be ordered for Wakefield operations... and then the depot had to be permanently closed. Aside from the operational headaches that no doubt arose, goodness knows how long it'll be until the specified funding is used or reallocated elsewhere.

On a more positive note, it looks like the 27 buses that Arriva Herts & Essex previously sought will, or have been ordered by Uno. 5 BYD B12s were ordered for their Hatfield inter-campus shuttle (some were seen at Stamford Brook recently) and I'd be surprised if the other 22 (possibly B12s as well) aren't ordered if they haven't already been.

It's understood that the Liverpool City Region batch will be Enviro 400EVs operated by Stagecoach (Gilmoss).

A First Hampshire & Dorset Wright GB Kite has been in Cornwall recently, apparently for "driver familiarisation", which may suggest that the 7 vehicles for Truro P&R will be the same type.

Uno tendered for 22 new vehicles, in two batches (11 for the autumn, 11 for spring 2026) recently. The first five of the 27 are the BYD B12s - at least three of which have now been seen in the country and photographs seen. I'd also be surprised if the rest weren't B12s too.

Trent/Kinch have been trialling both Yutong E9Ls and Alexander-Dennis E100EVs recently in Loughborough, suggesting an order may be imminent. With the recent order for Yutong GT12 coaches (19 in total - for newly gained Flixbus work, and to upgrade the Red Arrow service), I do wonder if Yutong may gain this order...

 

[gka472l]

It's understood that the Liverpool City Region batch will be Enviro 400EVs operated by Stagecoach (Gilmoss).

A First Hampshire & Dorset Wright GB Kite has been in Cornwall recently, apparently for "driver familiarisation", which may suggest that the 7 vehicles for Truro P&R will be the same type.

Uno tendered for 22 new vehicles, in two batches (11 for the autumn, 11 for spring 2026) recently. The first five of the 27 are the BYD B12s - at least three of which have now been seen in the country and photographs seen. I'd also be surprised if the rest weren't B12s too.

Trent/Kinch have been trialling both Yutong E9Ls and Alexander-Dennis E100EVs recently in Loughborough, suggesting an order may be imminent. With the recent order for Yutong GT12 coaches (19 in total - for newly gained Flixbus work, and to upgrade the Red Arrow service), I do wonder if Yutong may gain this order...

One of the Liverpool 'Metro' liveried ones has been spotted at ADL at Camelon a couple of weeks back. https://www.flickr.com/photos/197146068@N03/54317373275

HTH

 

[47550]

Arriva Yorkshire - 47 buses
These were to be ordered for Wakefield operations... and then the depot had to be permanently closed. Aside from the operational headaches that no doubt arose, goodness knows how long it'll be until the specified funding is used or reallocated elsewhere.

Bee Network had a similar problem as they had funding for 170 BZLs for Stockport. The planned new depot hasn't materialised yet (and wont do for some years) but Bee Network have had approval to use the buses in elsewhere in Manchester. One would hope that a similar solution can be found in Yorkshire for Arriva.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Genuine question, are ZEBRA funded buses allowed to do routes not mentioned in the original bid?

 

[Hyebone]

Our Yutongs have hit the road as expected. Rawmarsh depot have borrowed two for a shuttle bus service for a beer festival. Not sure if that violates the terms of ZEBRA?

The E400EV deckers seem a couple of months out. Apparently there was a fault identified with the type that is being rectified.