Zone 3 (Tooting Bec or Balham) to St Albans with "milling around in London" - Cheapest ticket(s)

[ctom_s]

Hi All,

Currently I have a friend who regularly stays over with her partner in Tooting, she's also a food blogger and is regularly travelling around central London. As such a very frequent journey for her is Tooting Bec or Balham, lots of short journeys in central London. Followed by a trip from Central London to St Albans. She has a 25-30 railcard. I would say for the purposes of the trip she would not be travelling in the morning peak, but may be making journeys in the evening peak (it would be good to know options including and excluding this).

Currently what she does is:
Contactless whilst in central London, presumably incurring the maximum £9 daily cap for Z1-3 (correct me if I'm wrong on this).
Contactless from Central London (let's say St Pancras for arguments sake) to St Albans at £11.60.

For a total of £20.60

I've suggested that she's kind of "double paying" for this trip, since she's paid for Z1-3 and it then paying again from St Pancras to Z3. However I'm not sure if there are any better options. What I've deduced so far, but without certainty (especially on exact costs) is.

1. It's possible to save 60p if she gets on at West Hampstead Thameslink, then the final journey is only £11 not £11.60
2. I've thought she could maybe get a paper ticket for Z1-3 day travelcard, then buy a paper extension from Boundary 3 to St A. But I think this works out at £14.40 + £4.65 which is £19.05
3. I've also thought she could get a "reverse" day travelcard paper ticket, i.e. a St Albans to Z1-3 Day Travelcard but
   1. if this is correct, I'm not sure of the price and options. Thetrainline.com seems to suggest at weekends you can get a super off-peak ticket for £9.80, but in the week it's £16.10 for an off-peak ticket. So does that mean super off peak tickets are weekend only?
   2. If this is the best option, how on earth would you get such a ticket when you're not at St Albans. I'm pretty sure you can't from an underground station, could you get one from Balham nat rail station? Or have to order online in advance and pick it up?

Any help at all would be great!

Kind Regards,
Tom

 

[Watershed]

Currently what she does is:
Contactless whilst in central London, presumably incurring the maximum £9 daily cap for Z1-3 (correct me if I'm wrong on this).
Contactless from Central London (let's say St Pancras for arguments sake) to St Albans at £11.60.

For a total of £20.60

I've suggested that she's kind of "double paying" for this trip, since she's paid for Z1-3 and it then paying again from St Pancras to Z3

Sort of. The backend charging system behind contactless is, in principle, very powerful and automatically charges the cheapest combination of caps and extension fares based on the travel undertaken. It also assesses Oyster journeys after the fact, potentially triggering a refund the next day if there would have been a cheaper combination than what the Oyster card has charged (this is also how weekly capping works on Oyster).

The issue, and the reason why your friend is indeed being "overcharged" in a sense, is that extension fares for stations outside the Zones are not always the same as the equivalent point-to-point fare. So a Zone 3-St Albans extension fare will probably cost more than a Hendon to St Albans journey. It's impossible to say without making the journey, since TfL refuse (quite wrongly in my view) to disclose what the extension fares are.

The intention here is to align the price of contactless journeys with what would have been charged if the person had bought a paper ticket, so they're based on e.g. the price of outboundary Travelcards. But it has the unfortunate effect that people who hit a central London cap are effectively overcharged.

It's possible to save 60p if she gets on at West Hampstead Thameslink, then the final journey is only £11 not £11.60

Due to the overpriced extension fares as explained above, 'splitting' (i.e. touching out and back in) at a station within the capped Zones can actually be cheaper. Doing this at Hendon is probably cheapest of all, since it is a zone 3/4 station.

I've thought she could maybe get a paper ticket for Z1-3 day travelcard, then buy a paper extension from Boundary 3 to St A. But I think this works out at £14.40 + £4.65 which is £19.05

The only Day Travelcards available nowadays are Zones 1-4 Anytime and 1-6 Anytime/Off-Peak. These can be discounted by Railcards, subject to applicable minimum fares. You can indeed buy Boundary Zone extension fares to combine with these, and in some scenarios this could be cheaper than contactless.

I've also thought she could get a "reverse" day travelcard paper ticket, i.e. a St Albans to Z1-3 Day Travelcard but

Unfortunately this won't work for this pattern of travel. Firstly, as above, you can only get Zones 1-4 or 1-6 Day Travelcards. Furthermore, an outboundary Day Travelcard constitutes the combination of an X to Boundary Zone 3 return, and the relevant Day Travelcard. And just as with normal return tickets, the Boundary Zone validity must be used in the correct 'order' - you can't use the 'outward' portion (St Albans to BZ3 in this case) after you've used the 'return' portion (BZ3 to St Albans). Sadly it's not possible to buy a Zones 1-3 to St Albans Day Travelcard.

if this is correct, I'm not sure of the price and options. Thetrainline.com seems to suggest at weekends you can get a super off-peak ticket for £9.80, but in the week it's £16.10 for an off-peak ticket. So does that mean super off peak tickets are weekend only?

That's correct - on many routes where the fares are set by Thameslink/Great Northern, there are cheaper Super Off-Peak fares that are only sold on weekends/bank holidays. Confusingly, they also have more expensive weekday Super Off-Peak fares on many of their routes, which generally offer a derisory discount despite having much more onerous time restrictions than the equivalent Off-Peak fare.

On weekends/BHs, it's often the case that contactless is more expensive than these cheap Super Off-Peak fares. This is because the contactless fares are based on normal Off-Peak fares, and don't have the capability to charge a lower fare on weekends. This is particularly the case when combined with holding a Railcard, where no minimum fare will apply as it's not a weekday.

If this is the best option, how on earth would you get such a ticket when you're not at St Albans. I'm pretty sure you can't from an underground station, could you get one from Balham nat rail station? Or have to order online in advance and pick it up?

You can either buy them online and collect them at a National Rail (this includes Overground and Elizabeth Line, despite TfL pretending otherwise!) managed station. Or you can buy them at a National Rail ticket office or ticket machine.

Overall, it's disappointing that there are still so many complicating factors - such as the fact that Railcard discounts can't be used on contactless - despite the ostensibly 'simple' option of using contactless. You really have to do your research in order to avoid overpaying. You'd hope that this would be addressed before contactless is rolled out more widely, but given TfL's opacity and intransigence, not to mention the meddling hand of the DfT and Treasury, I don't hold out high hopes.

 

[MikeWh]

@Watershed has answered comprehensively. If you can get sight of journey history which would confirm what has been charged for the journey to St Albans that would be interesting. It will be a zone 4 to St Albans extension, but GTR may have insisted that this is more than the comparable fare.

 

[ctom_s]

Sort of. The backend charging system behind contactless is, in principle, very powerful and automatically charges the cheapest combination of caps and extension fares based on the travel undertaken. It also assesses Oyster journeys after the fact, potentially triggering a refund the next day if there would have been a cheaper combination than what the Oyster card has charged (this is also how weekly capping works on Oyster).

The issue, and the reason why your friend is indeed being "overcharged" in a sense, is that extension fares for stations outside the Zones are not always the same as the equivalent point-to-point fare. So a Zone 3-St Albans extension fare will probably cost more than a Hendon to St Albans journey. It's impossible to say without making the journey, since TfL refuse (quite wrongly in my view) to disclose what the extension fares are.

The intention here is to align the price of contactless journeys with what would have been charged if the person had bought a paper ticket, so they're based on e.g. the price of outboundary Travelcards. But it has the unfortunate effect that people who hit a central London cap are effectively overcharged.


Due to the overpriced extension fares as explained above, 'splitting' (i.e. touching out and back in) at a station within the capped Zones can actually be cheaper. Doing this at Hendon is probably cheapest of all, since it is a zone 3/4 station.


The only Day Travelcards available nowadays are Zones 1-4 Anytime and 1-6 Anytime/Off-Peak. These can be discounted by Railcards, subject to applicable minimum fares. You can indeed buy Boundary Zone extension fares to combine with these, and in some scenarios this could be cheaper than contactless.


Unfortunately this won't work for this pattern of travel. Firstly, as above, you can only get Zones 1-4 or 1-6 Day Travelcards. Furthermore, an outboundary Day Travelcard constitutes the combination of an X to Boundary Zone 3 return, and the relevant Day Travelcard. And just as with normal return tickets, the Boundary Zone validity must be used in the correct 'order' - you can't use the 'outward' portion (St Albans to BZ3 in this case) after you've used the 'return' portion (BZ3 to St Albans). Sadly it's not possible to buy a Zones 1-3 to St Albans Day Travelcard.


That's correct - on many routes where the fares are set by Thameslink/Great Northern, there are cheaper Super Off-Peak fares that are only sold on weekends/bank holidays. Confusingly, they also have more expensive weekday Super Off-Peak fares on many of their routes, which generally offer a derisory discount despite having much more onerous time restrictions than the equivalent Off-Peak fare.

On weekends/BHs, it's often the case that contactless is more expensive than these cheap Super Off-Peak fares. This is because the contactless fares are based on normal Off-Peak fares, and don't have the capability to charge a lower fare on weekends. This is particularly the case when combined with holding a Railcard, where no minimum fare will apply as it's not a weekday.


You can either buy them online and collect them at a National Rail (this includes Overground and Elizabeth Line, despite TfL pretending otherwise!) managed station. Or you can buy them at a National Rail ticket office or ticket machine.

Overall, it's disappointing that there are still so many complicating factors - such as the fact that Railcard discounts can't be used on contactless - despite the ostensibly 'simple' option of using contactless. You really have to do your research in order to avoid overpaying. You'd hope that this would be addressed before contactless is rolled out more widely, but given TfL's opacity and intransigence, not to mention the meddling hand of the DfT and Treasury, I don't hold out high hopes.

Thanks for your response, just to address a couple of things then...

So for definite, assuming off-peak travel here which I think is valid. Buying a paper Z1-6 Travelcard with a railcard £14.40 discounted whatever that is (£9.60?), plus a discounted single from Elstree to St Albans which is a £3.65 is likely the way to go? - For a total of £13.25?

So although I understand the splitting at Hendon logic, if a z1-3 travelcard isn't available then getting a z1-6 is the way forward?

Regarding the pattern of travel on the travelcard, just to clarify (not sure if it makes a difference) that the outward portion would never be used in this instance, so is that ticket still not valid? Because probably straying into the "naughty" territory here but all the barriers and staff would accept such a ticket since they wouldn't know you didn't start your journey at St Albans?

I will try and get hold of the journey history if possible.

 

[JonathanH]

Because probably straying into the "naughty" territory here but all the barriers and staff would accept such a ticket since they wouldn't know you didn't start your journey at St Albans?

There is no issue with not using the outward portion of an outboundary travelcard but it may well be consumed by the barriers on arrival at the outboundary station on the return.

It seems unlikely that anything is recorded on the magnetic strip to denote whether it was used at the outboundary station that would prevent returning there.

TfL refuse (quite wrongly in my view) to disclose what the extension fares are

To be fair to TfL, the rail operators refuse to say what the boundary fares are as well, and they actually set them. The principle as I understand it being such that they don't lose revenue relative to fares from the London Terminals.

 

[miklcct]

Hi All,

Currently I have a friend who regularly stays over with her partner in Tooting, she's also a food blogger and is regularly travelling around central London. As such a very frequent journey for her is Tooting Bec or Balham, lots of short journeys in central London. Followed by a trip from Central London to St Albans. She has a 25-30 railcard. I would say for the purposes of the trip she would not be travelling in the morning peak, but may be making journeys in the evening peak (it would be good to know options including and excluding this).

Currently what she does is:
Contactless whilst in central London, presumably incurring the maximum £9 daily cap for Z1-3 (correct me if I'm wrong on this).
Contactless from Central London (let's say St Pancras for arguments sake) to St Albans at £11.60.

For a total of £20.60

I've suggested that she's kind of "double paying" for this trip, since she's paid for Z1-3 and it then paying again from St Pancras to Z3. However I'm not sure if there are any better options. What I've deduced so far, but without certainty (especially on exact costs) is.

1. It's possible to save 60p if she gets on at West Hampstead Thameslink, then the final journey is only £11 not £11.60
2. I've thought she could maybe get a paper ticket for Z1-3 day travelcard, then buy a paper extension from Boundary 3 to St A. But I think this works out at £14.40 + £4.65 which is £19.05
3. I've also thought she could get a "reverse" day travelcard paper ticket, i.e. a St Albans to Z1-3 Day Travelcard but
   1. if this is correct, I'm not sure of the price and options. Thetrainline.com seems to suggest at weekends you can get a super off-peak ticket for £9.80, but in the week it's £16.10 for an off-peak ticket. So does that mean super off peak tickets are weekend only?
   2. If this is the best option, how on earth would you get such a ticket when you're not at St Albans. I'm pretty sure you can't from an underground station, could you get one from Balham nat rail station? Or have to order online in advance and pick it up?

Any help at all would be great!

Kind Regards,
Tom

As she has a 26-30 Railcard, she should get an Oyster and load the railcard discount into it such that the 1-3 cap will become £5.95.

For her trip to St Albans, unfortunately she will need to get off the train and touch out, and use a paper ticket to complete her journey. By doing this at Hendon it will cost her 15 minutes and not being able to use a fast train, so I suggest she touching out at West Hampstead Thameslink and use a paper ticket from there if the majority of her travel is in zones 1-3 only.

 

[Surreytraveller]

There is no issue with not using the outward portion of an outboundary travelcard but it may well be consumed by the barriers on arrival at the outboundary station on the return.

They shouldn't be consumed, as an out-boundary Travelcard is still valid on buses outside the Travelcard area once you have returned to the originating station

 

[Watershed]

They shouldn't be consumed, as an out-boundary Travelcard is still valid on buses outside the Travelcard area once you have returned to the originating station

Shouldn't ≠ won't...

 

[ctom_s]

Yeah so it still looks like a z1-6 paper travelcard + Elstree extension looks like best bet on weekdays. That's £9.50 + £3.65 Vs the alternative z1-3 cap £5.95 + £8.35 West Hampstead to St Albans.

At the weekend, the Super off peak St Albans to Z1-6 at £9.80 is best Vs £5.95 z1-3 + £6 West Hampstead to St Albans at Sunday Rates, and this would best be ordered online and picked up at Balham national rail station.

Does go to show the lack of Railcard discount on contactless really makes a big difference though.

 

[paul1609]

I dont have any experience of Balham but assuming it has the standard GTR tvms I would just buy a St Albans to Zone 1 to 6 railcard discounted off peak or at weekends super off peak travecard and load it on to a key smartcard. You use the buy from another station button. Then use the key at TFL stations or buses like you would an oyster. It just opens thegates or beeps on the buses and says valid for entry.

 

[miklcct]

If she only wants to go to St Albans and not return then the St Albans - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard is the best on weekends (by discarding the outward "portion" of the ticket) unless she is willing to tap out at Hendon.

 

[ctom_s]

Ya the time wasted from a) getting a slow train and b) waiting for the next slow train was deemed intolerable

 

[30907]

They shouldn't be consumed, as an out-boundary Travelcard is still valid on buses outside the Travelcard area once you have returned to the originating station

do you mean inside, in which case it applies to all modes?
Outside, it will only apply if the services are TfL, surely?
In any case, we don't know that the OP needs to use one in St Albans.

 

[ctom_s]

I think he meant outside of stations within the travelcard area, but to your point yes this isn't necessary she's within walking distance

 

[miklcct]

do you mean inside, in which case it applies to all modes?
Outside, it will only apply if the services are TfL, surely?
In any case, we don't know that the OP needs to use one in St Albans.

The Travelcard area only applies to rail services. There are no zones on buses - a Travelcard is valid on all London Buses no matter how far away from London they go.

For example, Watford Junction is outside the Travelcard area but it is possible to use a Travelcard to take a London Bus from Watford Junction to London.

In the past there were also some non-TfL bus services accepting Travelcard but I don't know any still in existence now.

 

[fandroid]

If she only wants to go to St Albans and not return then the St Albans - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard is the best on weekends (by discarding the outward "portion" of the ticket) unless she is willing to tap out at Hendon.

"Discarding" is an inappropriate word here as outboundary Travelcards are just one paper ticket, not two as with normal returns. "Ignoring" is more appropriate