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London buses have become cashless
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PaulHarding150
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Cardiff Buses 'iff card' which is like an Oyster Card, but not as good as an overdraft facility on each card of £3.40 which is enough for a day pass in the city meaning you can always get home (just not two days in a row) without cash.
coastwallker
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I'm a bit confused by this. Will there still be the facility to buy a ticket from a machine at the stop with cash? Otherwise, how will visitors cope? Anyone just going across London on a one off won't want to buy an Oyster card or whatever.
The consultation report is a load of rubbish. Lots of issues are raised in people's responses, yet it addresses hardly any of them. For example, there's no mention of what to do about the frequently cited situation of Oysters being difficult to top up overnight.
As far as I can see, the only influence the consultation has had is to make TfL consider adding a few more Oyster ticket stops (which probably won't be open at night either).
Coastwalker: the machines to which you refer are being withdrawn as we speak there was a separate consultation about those some time ago.
As far as I can see, the only influence the consultation has had is to make TfL consider adding a few more Oyster ticket stops (which probably won't be open at night either).
Coastwalker: the machines to which you refer are being withdrawn as we speak there was a separate consultation about those some time ago.
transmanche
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No, they started removing the machines about a year ago. They were costing more to maintain than they took in fares, as the level of cash payments is so low.
The same way they do now. If they don't have an Oyster, they can use a contactless payment card.
The consultation report even states that of the visitors who paid for a cash fare, 86% of them had an Oyster card.
I live almost 300 miles from London, yet I have an Oyster card with auto top-up.
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transmanche
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No you don't, you can't (and never have been able to) get a day Travelcard on an Oyster.
What you do get when using Oyster PAYG, is a daily cap which is slightly less than the equivalent One Day Travelcard. The Oyster 'day' runs from 04:30-04:29, so as long as you start your final journey by 04:29 you'll still be covered by the same cap.
Some people have reported that they have needed to get a refund for overnight journeys, as due to operational reasons (the way that journey data is uploaded), sometimes the system incorrectly treats overnight journeys as separate day.
Ah right very interesting!
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The roadside machines will be going, they cost even more to run than having cash on the buses themselves. Essentially you will have to have an Oyster or contactless debit card in order to pay for your bus travel, although it doesn't have to be a UK issued contactless card (my partner's Irish visa debit contactless card works).
I also have concerns about people getting stranded late at night, although (at least in the central areas) Oyster Ticket Stops in 24-hour off licences are not uncommon. I can't see why TfL can't install ticket vending machines in select places that would benefit from them, e.g. hospital A&E, too. It's interesting to note the problems with TfL buses that cross the London boundary, people on those routes may not have access to an Oyster Ticket Stop.
I also have concerns about people getting stranded late at night, although (at least in the central areas) Oyster Ticket Stops in 24-hour off licences are not uncommon. I can't see why TfL can't install ticket vending machines in select places that would benefit from them, e.g. hospital A&E, too. It's interesting to note the problems with TfL buses that cross the London boundary, people on those routes may not have access to an Oyster Ticket Stop.
transmanche
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But they probably have access to the Oyster website and the ability to set auto top-up.
If (like me) you live outside London and want to use TfL services, you have to accept that it's just what you need to do...
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
A lot of people don't want to use auto top-up for the very good reason that they can't afford to have £20+ sitting on an Oyster card at any one time. I don't use auto top-up for that reason.
I understand why it isn't, but TfL should really allow auto top-up of £5 or £10 instead of insisting on £20.
The Oyster website's big limitation is that you cannot collect a top-up on a bus. Again, I understand why you can't, but it is a pretty big limitation. Some TfL services go a significant distance outside the London boundary, and although there are now Oyster ticket stops in Slough, Potters Bar and Dartford, it's still a bit of a pain.
transmanche
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But the choice is there. It's another avenue to access Oyster
In effect the number of people who will be inconvenienced (and I agree there will be some) are those who
- do not have an Oyster card
- and do not have a contactless payment card
- and do not have a Freedom Pass/ENCTS pass
- or have an Oyster card, but do not use auto top-up and have a balance of less than £1.45 on it and have already used the 'one more bus ride' facility that TfL will add before the cashless scheme starts
- and are unable to get to a station or one of the thousands of Oyster ticket stops across London in order to top-up their card
A fair comparison would be when pre-payment gas and electric meters went cashless. Instead of being able to pay cash by inserting a coin, you had to get a key or a card which needed to be topped-up by visiting a local shop (often the same shop that is an Oyster ticket stop). And they usually offer some emergency credit to tide you over should you run out. However, TfL are giving more options to pay (such as CPCs, auto top-ups).
While I'm a big fan of using technology in ticketing, there are a few problems with this.
Firstly, 24 hour offlicenses may have a ticket machine to top up but the system closes at midnightish. I've been caught out by this so many times.
Secondly, I find contactless cards incredibly brittle and not robust enough for this situation (fine in a shop - you can just pay via chip & pin - but not as a 'last resort' mechanism). I've had two cards that chip and pin has just broke even though the card works fine for anything else.
Thirdly, I can see people being caught out by doing say a journey to Zone 3 on a Zone 1-2 travelcard to a night out, and being put in negative balance by a few pence despite having a season ticket with no way to top that up to get the night bus home (I have also been caught in this situation).
Basically, this would be absolutely fine if TfL's systems weren't so crap that you could either top up online/on your phone and have it go on the card straight away OR you could use oyster ticket stops 24/7.
Firstly, 24 hour offlicenses may have a ticket machine to top up but the system closes at midnightish. I've been caught out by this so many times.
Secondly, I find contactless cards incredibly brittle and not robust enough for this situation (fine in a shop - you can just pay via chip & pin - but not as a 'last resort' mechanism). I've had two cards that chip and pin has just broke even though the card works fine for anything else.
Thirdly, I can see people being caught out by doing say a journey to Zone 3 on a Zone 1-2 travelcard to a night out, and being put in negative balance by a few pence despite having a season ticket with no way to top that up to get the night bus home (I have also been caught in this situation).
Basically, this would be absolutely fine if TfL's systems weren't so crap that you could either top up online/on your phone and have it go on the card straight away OR you could use oyster ticket stops 24/7.
If they've got a Travelcard isn't that valid on the nightbus anyway?
Not if you're in negative balance (even by a few pence) from going outside your boundaries before.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
the only time I ever use London buses is to join up a journey e.g. Station to station to reach a particular location with a mutually convenient bus stop. If I still will if I have money on an oister or a travelcar however this for me is just another disadvantage and woant, just like borrismasters or silly travel times over the tube or other rail sell the bus in London to me!↲
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bb21
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Not everyone needs an Oyster card.
Have you noticed how much a faff it is these days to try and get a refund on your Oyster? Why would a casual visitor ever want to get an Oyster if there is no immediate plan to visit London again?
Contactless payment is not that widespread either.
What is wrong with having drivers accept cash payments but not giving change? There is no need to issue a float. True that there will need to be someone who collects the cash from drivers at the end of their shifts, but that is hardly a big job considering the number of transactions.
For TfL I can see that removing cashless payment is a no-brainer. Save on the associated costs of cash payment, and pocket the additional deposit from those who either cannot be asked to get a refund on the Oyster card or are unable to get a refund because they are unable to comply with the new rules on refunds before returning home.
PermitToTravel
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I would support this if TfL could negotiate an extension to the contactless payment protocol that introduced "priority merchants". There are many ways that this could work - my suggestion would be a separate authentication ceiling limit for each of these merchants. Paying with a PIN anywhere else would reset all of your limits. £25 would probably be appropriate an appropriate limit for TfL - if you're spending more than that on a card without paying for anything else in between, you should probably be using an Oyster card instead. If you do have to authenticate yourself, this isn't really an imposition in most of London. Anyone reliant on the more infrequent bus routes (IIRC London has some hourly ones!) probably has an Oyster card, but this still leaves the risk of catching them out.
While TfL are negotiating extensions to the protocol, they could get one allowing trusted merchants (or possibly all, but this would have to be regulated carefully) to store data on cards. Voilà, price capping is solved!
I don't think so
While TfL are negotiating extensions to the protocol, they could get one allowing trusted merchants (or possibly all, but this would have to be regulated carefully) to store data on cards. Voilà, price capping is solved!
I don't think so
bb21
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I don't think so
Please elaborate.
transmanche
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Yet only around 1% of fares are paid for in cash.
No, but quite possibly I've never felt the need to do so.
Well I do (despite living about 300 miles away), because I know that I will go back to London at some point and it's far more convenient to keep it. So do many of my friends and family. There is also the possibility to lend it to friends/family who are travelling to London.
According to the UK Cards Association, by last autumn approx 36 million of the 145 million credit & debit cards in the UK had contactless functionality - that's about a quarter. So although not yet the majority, I;d say that it is widespread. And the number's growing all the time, as the vast majority of new cards issued have contactless functionality. So as and when your cards expire, your replacement card will most likely include contactless functionality.
Price capping will be done as a back-office function before the charge is claimed from the bank.
transmanche
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Probably about three or four routes in total; such as the W10 (Enfield Town-Crews Hill Stn) which to be honest was only created in order to give a bus and driver something to do between the morning and afternoon school runs!
PermitToTravel
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Re-read the bit I quoted
It's worth noting that all contactless transactions are approved by the card, not the bank, and so only people who are eligible for an offline authorisation card can get contactless cards. There are a lot of people in London with online-only cards.
It's rather a bodgy solution, but I doubt it'll cause any customers any pain
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But regardless of that it does have custom, and I can't imagine that anyone will be too happy to miss it because the card wants them to enter their PIN
transmanche
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It's been brought up here a number of times (see discussion about the difference between purple and blue NatWest debit cards) - and hence why I said "vast majority" rather than "all".
Excluding school routes there's a few more than that:
There's the 347 every 2 hours http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/347.htm
The 375 every 90 minutes http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/375.htm
The 385 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/385.htm
The 389 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/389.htm
The 399 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/399.htm
The 404 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/404.htm
The 467 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/467.htm
The 549 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/549.htm
The H3 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/H03.htm
The K5 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/K05.htm
The R5 and R10 each every 2 hours http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/R05R10.htm
The R7 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/R07.htm
The R8 not quite every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/R08.htm
The U10 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/U10.htm
The W10 every hour http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/W10.htm
Then there's the once a week ones:
http://www.notrog.plus.com/busroutes/900series/route931.htm
http://www.notrog.plus.com/busroutes/900series/route965.htm
http://www.notrog.plus.com/busroutes/900series/route969.htm
transmanche
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OK. 15 routes, which I'll wager make up such a tiny percentage of the London Bus Network that they don't even count as a rounding error.
The three routes which remain as the rump of the mobility bus network. All the other routes have been replaced by the spread of accessible buses. And 0xx series mobility buses are a red herring anyway - being as the target market for these routes are people who will have a Freedom Pass or do not need to pay (wheelchair users travel free on London Buses, without needing to have a Freedom/ENTCS Pass).
Robertj21a
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Problem is only going to relate to a minute number of potential passengers, probably those who always run everything very close to any limits they have. It's very unusual to be able to pay cash on buses in cities abroad and London is no different.
Tourists from abroad tend to think these things out before they arrive in the UK, just as we would when travelling to their country.
Robert
Tourists from abroad tend to think these things out before they arrive in the UK, just as we would when travelling to their country.
Robert
My experience abroad (mostly in Italy and Denmark) has been different. It's unusual for people to pay in cash but often you can (with much higher fares).
I've been to Copenhagen several times, travelling extensively by public transport. I've never yet seen anyone pay on the bus with cash but you can.
transmanche
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I don't know about the US, but it is perfectly possible to have an Oyster card without giving any details - if that's important to you. But if you chose that, you do lose some of the functionality and flexibility.
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