London Midland/Northern EMU changes speculation

[northwichcat]

And what would Northern use 37 350/2s on? The Stoke-Manchester-Preston-Blackpool axis of Regional expresses? Liverpool-Blackpool? Manchester-Windermere? Transfer the existing LM Birmingham-Liverpool to be operated by Northern but retaining 350/2s on them? Hadfield circuit to keep up with the 323s? Endless possibilities.

Replacing 17 x 323s takes the number of additional trains down to 20. If Blackpool-Manchester Airport finished up being operated by doubled up 350s that would leave 10 x 350s, maybe another doubled up diagram for Windermere services and then we're down to 8. The additional Macclesfield services could use a couple as well as the option for eliminating some DMU working under the wires in the South Manchester area, that would just leave you enough left over for maintenance/spares. Quite a neat solution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is a very strong case for this, it's such an outpost of LM that it is poorly resourced, unpunctual and unreliable.

It would be a worse fit with Northern. Apart from Lime Street-South Parkway the Liverpool-Birmingham service doesn't duplicate any regular Northern services or workings.

I think the reliability is partly down to having to squeeze the services between the Virgin services, with the Virgin services not having good reliability.

 

[158722]

Replacing 17 x 323s takes the number of additional trains down to 20. If Blackpool-Manchester Airport finished up being operated by doubled up 350s that would leave 10 x 350s left, maybe another doubled up diagram for Windermere services and then we're down to 8. The additional Macclesfield services could use a couple as well as the option for eliminating some DMU working under the wires in the South Manchester area, that would just leave you enough left over for maintenance/spares. Quite a neat solution.

It does all look quite neat as it happens!

As a rough estimate, Northern would still need around another 14-16 319s to cover Blackpool-Preston/Wigan-Manchester when all wired, in addition to the faster, ex-TPE services going over to 350s. So, Northern end up with around 36 319s, LM get 30, leaving 20 for South Eastern (who have apparently put in a bid for some more).

 

[Crossover]

Do Northern operate many services using 2x323

None in regular timetabled service that I know of, just occasional football specials for Old Trafford.

I don't believe most of the platforms will take double 323's in Northern land - certainly the bay at Stoke won't, at any rate

There is a very strong case for this, it's such an outpost of LM that it is poorly resourced, unpunctual and unreliable.

But then surely Birmingham would become an outpost of Northern :P

 

[northwichcat]

I don't believe most of the platforms will take double 323's in Northern land - certainly the bay at Stoke won't, at any rate

I think you could use 6 car 323s on Crewe/Macclesfield to Manchester services. Most stations served by Hazel Grove-Preston could take them, I think just Woodsmoor and the peak time calls at Blackrod would be a problem, if it wasn't for the fact the wires aren't there yet. Strangely if the Altrincham-Sale-Manchester line hadn't been converted to Metrolink, Northern could have used 8 car 319s on it!

The only time Northern use 323s doubled up are when the Old Trafford match day services operate, which are sometimes extensions of Crewe services and sometimes stand alone shuttles.

 

[Wolfie]

One of the most debated EMU related topics on here...

Latest issue of Modern Railways reporting that the next Northern franchise will not feature any 323s, irrespective of the winning bid, due to a decision by the leasing company (Porterbrook).

That should set the cat amongst the pigeons.

So, 319s to Hadfield and the Stoke stoppers?

A better offer from elsewhere or are Porterbrook heartily fed up with the level of "care" that their assets have received at Northern?

The fact the 350/2s don't have 110mph mods is probably down to their interiors, which are completely unsuitable for long-distance express work like Euston-Crewe. The 110mph timings have helped force LM to use appropriate stock on that service (/2s still show up on it but not as much as happened before Dec 2012).

Give them to TPE in 3+2 form... solves the whinges over the number of seats on that operator...

 

[northwichcat]

A better offer from elsewhere or are Porterbrook heartily fed up with the level of "care" that their assets have received at Northern?

The 323s are maintained at Longsight (a Virgin maintenance facility) and are probably some of the best maintained trains in the Northern fleet.

I imagine if LM have chosen to take on the 323s (opposed to DfT telling them) it's to cut costs. After all they recently decided 7 x 321s could be replaced by 4 x 319s.

 

[A0wen]

The 100mph diagrams are self-contained, so I'd say yes. Indeed, as a LM user I'd rather have 30 319s than 22 350s; it would for instance allow all peak slow and semifast departures from Euston to be 12-car and additionally make some of the overcrowded shoulder-peak services 8-car. So no problems there, though I would prefer 2+2 seating in whatever we get (i.e. the ex-Cityflyer or Brighton Express units).

I suspect you're in the minority.

Replacing nearly new, air conditioned units which are pleasant to travel in with 30 year old non air-con units is not going to be well received, particularly for people travelling to Northampton on them.

The other problem is the 319s don't allow walkthrough between units, whereas the 350s do - which makes life easier on busy services.

And I'm not sure if 319s are cleared through to Birmingham (or have ever been?) and I thought the Birmingham diagrams were 100mph ones - the 110s being the Weedon ones for the TV.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 323s are maintained at Longsight (a Virgin maintenance facility) and are probably some of the best maintained trains in the Northern fleet.

I imagine if LM have chosen to take on the 323s (opposed to DfT telling them) it's to cut costs. After all they recently decided 7 x 321s could be replaced by 4 x 319s.

I don't think LM "chose" 4 x 319s to replace 7 x 321s - as I understood it the leasing company told LM the 321s had to be returned ? Presumably the 319s were the only viable option open to LM

 

[northwichcat]

And I'm not sure if 319s are cleared through to Birmingham (or have ever been?) and I thought the Birmingham diagrams were 100mph ones - the 110s being the Weedon ones for the TV.

319s are going to have to go on some lines they've never been cleared for, unless you want to scrap them.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure why LM's commuters - who already have relatively slow journeys from NMP & MKC should also see a notable deterioration in the quality of stock they have, when compared to what they currently have.

Especially when you compare the units / quality of service which will be on Thameslink in the next year or so and, indeed, the GN route.

The 350s came on stream after all the years of disruption with the WCML upgrade. The 319s would be a massive retrograde step.

Firstly, we don't know for certain that LM commuters will be getting 319s.

Secondly, Milton Keynes to Euston on a LM service is just over an hour on a direct stopping service, with some faster Virgin Pendolino services available for end-to-end journeys. Why are 319s unsuitable? They've recently been introduced on Liverpool to Manchester Airport semi-fasts which are also just over an hour in length.

 

[A0wen]

Firstly, we don't know for certain that LM commuters will be getting 319s.

Secondly, Milton Keynes to Euston on a LM service is just over an hour on a direct stopping service, with some faster Virgin Pendolino services available for end-to-end journeys. Why are 319s unsuitable? They've recently been introduced on Liverpool to Manchester Airport semi-fasts which are also just over an hour in length.

Not a good example that one - the main passenger flows will be Liverpool - Manchester, which has a journey time of about 40 mins. The extension to the airport is more for operational convenience than for passenger flow. The number of end-to-end passengers is not going to be huge on that. Whereas MKC or NMP to Euston have huge passenger flows regularly travelling end to end.

 

[87015]

Is it actually quoted anywhere as 323s to LM? Scotland still wants rid of 314s doesn't it?

 

[Brian Aylott]

The 323s are maintained at Longsight (a Virgin maintenance facility) and are probably some of the best maintained trains in the Northern fleet.

I imagine if LM have chosen to take on the 323s (opposed to DfT telling them) it's to cut costs. After all they recently decided 7 x 321s could be replaced by 4 x 319s.

Longsight is an Alstom depot - not Virgin
Brian

 

[A0wen]

Is it actually quoted anywhere as 323s to LM? Scotland still wants rid of 314s doesn't it?

314s are likely to be heading scrap bound.

The PEP derived units are almost 40 years old and have, by and large, been worked hard. We've already started seeing some 508s withdrawn. The 315s will probably be sent onto South Wales for a short time after Crossrail, but probably only as a stop-gap. TSGN are looking at what will replace 313s on the Moorgate services and Merseyrail at what will replace the 507s / 508s.

 

[northwichcat]

Not a good example that one - the main passenger flows will be Liverpool - Manchester, which has a journey time of about 40 mins.

I think you just want to be objectionable.

Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly is 45 minutes.

Most Milton Keynes to Euston passengers would use Virgin. Hemel Hempstead and Watford are the only large settlements between the two, Hemel Hempstead to Euston is around 30 minutes.

 

[D365]

314s are likely to be heading scrap bound.

The PEP derived units are almost 40 years old and have, by and large, been worked hard. We've already started seeing some 508s withdrawn. The 315s will probably be sent onto South Wales for a short time after Crossrail, but probably only as a stop-gap. TSGN are looking at what will replace 313s on the Moorgate services and Merseyrail at what will replace the 507s / 508s.

True, as the Class 315s are youngest and most plentiful it is likely that they will be the ones to find a 'twilight home'. That they are 4-car units is a bonus.

However, to answer 87015's post, the AT200 introduction will cause another traction reshuffle within ScotRail which will allow the Class 314 to be withdrawn.

 

[A0wen]

I think you just want to be objectionable.

Liverpool to Manchester Piccadilly is 45 minutes.

Most Milton Keynes to Euston passengers would use Virgin. Hemel Hempstead and Watford are the only large settlements between the two, Hemel Hempstead to Euston is around 30 minutes.

Northampton?

Already circa 60 min journey times, often longer.

If the 350/2s are replaced with 319s, it would be inevitable that more NMP workings will end up with 319s - there are still some 321 workings even now.

And that compares badly with places like Peterborough - which will be getting new units as part of Thameslink, Bedford - new units etc

 

[D365]

And that compares badly with places like Peterborough - which will be getting new units as part of Thameslink.

Not entirely - we're keeping 19 Class 365s for KX peak semi-fast workings. Also 19 377/5s (of the same vintage as the Class 350/2 i.e. approaching 10 years old) to be cascaded from Thameslink - but they'll only be seen on Cambridge fasts...

 

[northwichcat]

A0wen- I accept passengers won't like replacing modern with older, or the fact that other lines are getting new trains when they get cascaded trains. However, some routes will get cascaded 319s unless they are scrapped, which is very unlikely to happen in the short term.

If it's announced LM will give up the 350/2s but will take on a greater number of 350/4s and 319s and promise more peak time capacity, would you oppose the idea, if it's a choice of that or leave things exactly as they are?

 

[AM9]

Northampton?

Already circa 60 min journey times, often longer.

If the 350/2s are replaced with 319s, it would be inevitable that more NMP workings will end up with 319s - there are still some 321 workings even now.

And that compares badly with places like Peterborough - which will be getting new units as part of Thameslink, Bedford - new units etc

Just because you can find similar duration runs with newer trains than 321/319s it doesn't make that an entitlement for all. Take the 321s used on the GEML, the 317s running to Cambridge, or the 319s to be used on various Thameslink routes for 3 years hence. They are all capable 100mph outer suburban MKIII based commuter stock and as long as they are looked after, they will do the job. Until very recently 319s were plying from Bedford to Brighton, - well over 100 miles taking about 2 hours.

 

[A0wen]

Not entirely - we're keeping 19 Class 365s for KX peak semi-fast workings. Also 19 377/5s (of the same vintage as the Class 350/2 i.e. approaching 10 years old) to be cascaded from Thameslink - but they'll only be seen on Cambridge fasts...

A 365 is light years ahead of a 319 in passenger comfort terms, same with a 377.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just because you can find similar duration runs with newer trains than 321/319s it doesn't make that an entitlement for all. Take the 321s used on the GEML, the 317s running to Cambridge, or the 319s to be used on various Thameslink routes for 3 years hence. They are all capable 100mph outer suburban MKIII based commuter stock and as long as they are looked after, they will do the job. Until very recently 319s were plying from Bedford to Brighton, - well over 100 miles taking about 2 hours.

Most of the more far-flung destinations which have 321s / 319s on them also have alternative fast services to London e.g. Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Cambridge, Peterborough, Bedford.

Northampton doesn't - and it lost the TV services last time LM had a "bright idea".

I doubt many people travelled the end to end Bedford - Brighton. On journey time alone it was not competitive.

If LM end up losing 350s to get them replaced with 321s that is the thin end of the wedge - and once again it's Northampton and to a lesser extent Rugby and MK losing out.

 

[northwichcat]

Going back to the 323s I've noticed the LM Direct Award and next Northern franchise both start in April next year, so could it be possible someone other than LM has agreed a deal with Porterbrook for all the 323s? There's no mention of the LM 323s being released but then there's no mention of LM taking on the Northern 323s, so there's still a missing piece of information.

 

[AM9]

Most of the more far-flung destinations which have 321s / 319s on them also have alternative fast services to London e.g. Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester, Cambridge, Peterborough, Bedford.

Not quite. They are few and far between and on the GEML, the only way for a fast train to pass a slower one is at Witham. I don't call an additional 15min wait for a train with 30 year old MKIII coaches that gets in three minutes after the train that you could have got an 'alternative fast service'. Nor do I consider having to get to Kings Cross just to get a Networker instead of a 317 from Liverpool Street an 'alternative fast service'.
Only four mainline trains stop at Peterborough between 17:00 and 17:59 and hardly any EMT trains stop at Bedford in the peak so there isn't much chance of travelling on other than Thameslink stock on either of those lines.

Northampton doesn't - and it lost the TV services last time LM had a "bright idea".

LM needs to deliver services on the WCML in paths squeezed between the VT ones. Northampton is effectively on a slow line loop between Rugby and Roade and has been for over a century. But that's got nothing to do with the rolling stock on services being 319/321s or 350/2s. Both are 100mph trains and suitable for the role.

I doubt many people travelled the end to end Bedford - Brighton. On journey time alone it was not competitive.

I agree that is true but Bedford to London is about 1 hour travelling time, as is Brighton to London. 319s were/are perfectly adequate for that journey.

If LM end up losing 350s to get them replaced with 321s that is the thin end of the wedge - and once again it's Northampton and to a lesser extent Rugby and MK losing out.

For it's size, Northampton gets a fair service with reasonable travelling time. Whilst some may prefer the 350/2s to MKIII stock, that view is by no means universal. When some in the north are complaining about heavily loaded 150s and even Pacers, Northampton should consider it's service and stock reasonable when compared to other mainlines into London

 

[wellwhatitis]

There is a very strong case for this, it's such an outpost of LM that it is poorly resourced, unpunctual and unreliable.

And giving it to that bastion of reliability, resourcing and customer service Northern would solve this how?

At least LM can operate the service from three depots which provides some flexibility during disruption, not so with Northern.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Going back to the 323s I've noticed the LM Direct Award and next Northern franchise both start in April next year, so could it be possible someone other than LM has agreed a deal with Porterbrook for all the 323s? There's no mention of the LM 323s being released but then there's no mention of LM taking on the Northern 323s, so there's still a missing piece of information.

There is a lot up in the air at the moment that may be affecting 323 allocation. The LM Direct Award has now had an extension to October 2017 with a further option to extend by 13 periods after that, which has sent them back to the drawing boards yet again.

The Bromsgrove electrification has gone very quiet in light of the latest DfT announcements, that along with the Chase electrification was going to require extra 323's and coupled to this LM are trying to complete extensive overhauls on 323's and are running by the seat of their pants most days at the moment when it comes to 323's.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Bromsgrove electrification has gone very quiet in light of the latest DfT announcements, that along with the Chase electrification was going to require extra 323's and coupled to this LM are trying to complete extensive overhauls on 323's and are running by the seat of their pants most days at the moment when it comes to 323's.

Bromsgrove station is running about 3 months late because of problems with ground contamination and a footbridge redesign, and will open in March 2016.
The electrification project still seems on however, for 2017 completion.
http://www.bromsgroveadvertiser.co....ay_station_delayed_after_construction_issues/

 

[Darren R]

Does "Modern Railways" have a reliable source for the information? Is "Modern Railways" generally a reliable source of information for stories such as this? Genuine questions by the way; I don't know the answer to either and nor is it a publication I read. I just wondered whether we are speculating upon somebody else's speculation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't read anything in MR about LM losing any 350s. Or is this just the 323s?

 

[158722]

The Bromsgrove electrification has gone very quiet in light of the latest DfT announcements, that along with the Chase electrification was going to require extra 323's and coupled to this LM are trying to complete extensive overhauls on 323's and are running by the seat of their pants most days at the moment when it comes to 323's.

The extra 323s required for the increased Redditch frequency and extension to Bromsgrove are supposedly covered by the 350s having taken over the Wolves-Walsall services. Presumably the current slack is being taken up by the overhauls.

Should the 17 Northern 323s go to LM, 5 no doubt for the Walsall-Wolves, 4 required for the Chase line, a pair for Nuneaton-Coventry (whenever that is due now, plus another potentially if the service is extended to Kenilworth or Leamington, eventually - admittedly, not been keeping up with that project - still happening?) - leaving a couple for doubling sets to 6 cars. 40 diagrams for the fleet of 43 sounds about right.

 

[wellwhatitis]

The extra 323s required for the increased Redditch frequency and extension to Bromsgrove are supposedly covered by the 350s having taken over the Wolves-Walsall services. Presumably the current slack is being taken up by the overhauls.

Should the 17 Northern 323s go to LM, 5 no doubt for the Walsall-Wolves, 4 required for the Chase line, a pair for Nuneaton-Coventry (whenever that is due now, plus another potentially if the service is extended to Kenilworth or Leamington, eventually - admittedly, not been keeping up with that project - still happening?) - leaving a couple for doubling sets to 6 cars. 40 diagrams for the fleet of 43 sounds about right.

The extra ones for Redditch came from releasing 4 of Walsall Wolves, the 5th working on there is still a 323. I don't know how many more are required for the Bromsgrove work, but I do know that they are also planning to increase many of the existing Cross City workings to 6 car. Even if they release the one 323 off the International stopper, that still isn't enough to satisfy all of this.

On Nuneaton to Leamington, our understanding on the ground is that the through routing of this and ultimately electrification is getting put back further and further by the day, due to lack of paths across Coventry, loss of funding for Coventry station and a resulting delay to the proposed bay platform and then the nationwide DfT issue.

All that will happen on there in the immediate future is that the new stations will have calls by existing services.

it's all so off target that I doubt any immediate allocation of 323's will hinge on anything to do with NUCKLE.

 

[Wolf]

Always thought it wud be nice to have some over here West Yorkshire - in exchange of course for manchester getting a few of our 333s

 

[D365]

Always thought it wud be nice to have some over here West Yorkshire - in exchange of course for manchester getting a few of our 333s

You mean the 323s? An additional batch of 14 units was originally planned for the Airedale/Wharfdale but privatisation put a stop to that. However it did mean that 16 333s were ordered instead and that it was possible to extend the fleet to 4-car units. Which can only be seen as an improvement, in the end.