EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[meridian2]

I suppose on geological scales it will be a blink of the eye, but given the trajectory of Turkish politics under Erdogan I doubt it will happen this side of 2025.

I don't consider 8 years geological. It's less than the time taken to decide the location of forthcoming Olympic games.

 

[najaB]

Didn't miss it at all. A change of president could be all it takes.

There's no such thing as a president without followers. The results of his purge after the coup attempt will shape Turkish politics for a decade or more.

 

[najaB]

I don't consider 8 years geological. It's less than the time taken to decide the location of forthcoming Olympic games.

You misunderstand - I didn't say it would happen in eight years. I said it won't happen in less than eight years.

 

[najaB]

The EU's direction of travel towards further integration with Turkey, including visa free travel to EU member states for Turkish citizens, is very worrying in itself. The EU's "positive agenda" towards Turkey makes it very obvious which way things are going.

Turkey is and will increasingly be a major player in East/West politics. It's better to have them inside the tent ****ing out.

 

[Bromley boy]

Turkey is and will increasingly be a major player in East/West politics. It's better to have them inside the tent ****ing out.

And how well do you think millions of Turks with free movement would assimilate into other EU member states? Turkey is culturally and economically incompatible with Europe. It just happens to be geographically close to it. If Turkey joins, why not go the whole hog and invite Egypt and Syria to join?

The fact we are even discussing the prospect of Turkish ancession to the EU shows how out of touch and dangerous the EU has become as an institution.

 

[najaB]

Turkey is culturally and economically incompatible with Europe.

Oh yes, that monolithic Turkish culture which has nothing in common with Western Europe despite being the eastern seat of Christianity for the best part of a thousand years. :roll:

 

[EM2]

I don't consider 8 years geological. It's less than the time taken to decide the location of forthcoming Olympic games.

What makes you think it could all be done in eight years, when there are thirty-three chapters to be closed, and they've managed to close one in twelve years?

 

[AlterEgo]

Turkey is and will increasingly be a major player in East/West politics. It's better to have them inside the tent ****ing out.

Turkey don't like being in any sort of tent. Their government has an unjustifiably arrogant stance towards any kind of neighbourliness, claim cultural superiority/uniqueness, and define themselves by their repulsion of historical conquests. (Does it sound familiar?? )

Turkey is a wonderful country, but it is not European and doesn't feel European.

 

[najaB]

Turkey is a wonderful country, but it is not European and doesn't feel European.

I'll agree with you there on the first and last points. However, historically it has always been the boundary zone between Europe and Asia so it wouldn't be that crazy for them to be part of the EU.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'll agree with you there on the first and last points. However, historically it has always been the boundary zone between Europe and Asia so it wouldn't be that crazy for them to be part of the EU.

Geographically it isn't crazy. And I can see the benefits to having a benign and cooperative Turkey in the EU.

However Turkey are a long way from being either of those things, sadly.

 

[Bromley boy]

Oh yes, that monolithic Turkish culture which has nothing in common with Western Europe despite being the eastern seat of Christianity for the best part of a thousand years. :roll:

But more recently has, at least tacitly, favoured Isis over Kurdish freedom fighters.

It has more of a secular Arabic culture than a European one. I'm sorry, but you're deluded if you think that is in any way compatible with the values we hold dear in Western Europe.

 

[Railops]

What makes you think it could all be done in eight years, when there are thirty-three chapters to be closed, and they've managed to close one in twelve years?

Amazing that you decide that you can discuss Turkey after telling me my post on Turkey was irrelevant.

 

[najaB]

It has more of a secular Arabic culture than a European one. I'm sorry, but you're deluded if you think that is in any way compatible with the values we hold dear in Western Europe.

Secular Arabic culture are you describe it is actually quite close to European culture. In what way is moderate Islam fundamentally incompatible with moderate Christianity?

 

[EM2]

Amazing that you decide that you can discuss Turkey after telling me my post on Turkey was irrelevant.

If the debate is going to continue, I'll contribute to it. I still don't think it's relevant though, and part of the reason for me contributing is to illustrate that irrelevance.

 

[najaB]

And I can see the benefits to having a benign and cooperative Turkey in the EU.

However Turkey are a long way from being either of those things, sadly.

Unfortunately. Erdoğan and his cronies have a lot to answer for.

 

[Railops]

If the debate is going to continue, I'll contribute to it. I still don't think it's relevant though, and part of the reason for me contributing is to illustrate that irrelevance.

I see.

 

[Bromley boy]

Secular Arabic culture are you describe it is actually quite close to European culture. In what way is moderate Islam fundamentally incompatible with moderate Christianity?

Well the track record of the treatment of Christians living in Islamic countries around the world certainly isn't great. Unless you can point to a majority Islamic country with a successful and thriving Christian population?

However I'm not so much concerned with Islamic versus Christian values. Much more with the compatability of any form of Islam with a liberal values such as: equality of religion, equality of opportunities for men and women, equality for gay/lesbian/trans etc.

It is for these reasons I don't believe giving Turkish citizens unlimited access to Europe is a sensible idea.

 

[EM2]

Unless you can point to a majority Islamic country with a successful and thriving Christian population?

Lebanon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

 

[najaB]

Well the track record of the treatment of Christians living in Islamic countries around the world certainly isn't great. Unless you can point to a majority Islamic country with a successful and thriving Christian population?

Oh dear. Talk about a baited question. Point out for me a majority Christian country where Muslims don't experience discrimination.

Muslim majority countries which are fundamentally safe for Christians include: Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

 

[meridian2]

Lebanon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

The Isis threat to crucify Lebanese Christians problematizes things somewhat.

 

[Bromley boy]

Lebanon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

Lebanon!?!? Your idea of tolerance and acceptance must be different to mine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36637378

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/06/this-lebanese-village-is-under-attack-by-isis.html

And then of course the usual Sunni versus Shia atrocities.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Beirut_bombings

 

[najaB]

The Isis threat to crucify Lebanese Christians problematizes things somewhat.

As I said, point out a Christian majority country where Muslims are completely free from threats and/or discrimination.

 

[najaB]

Lebanon!?!? Your idea of tolerance and acceptance must be different to mine.

The question you asked was

Unless you can point to a majority Islamic country with a successful and thriving Christian population?

Is the Christian population in Lebanon successful? Yes. Thriving? Yes.

 

[Bromley boy]

Oh dear. Talk about a baited question. Point out for me a majority Christian country where Muslims don't experience discrimination.

Muslim majority countries which are fundamentally safe for Christians include: Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

I'm sure minorities of all kinds experience discrimination in all societies.

Show me a majority Islamic country where Christians don't face a threat to their very existence.

I'm sorry but if you can't see the difference between Western European modern liberal values and even liberal Islamic values then you should visit some Islamic countries first person, as I have. Many of them are great places to visit, but liberal they most certainly are not. A completely alien culture with diametrically opposing norms and customs.

 

[Bromley boy]

The question you asked wasIs the Christian population in Lebanon successful? Yes. Thriving? Yes.

Apart from the regular suicide bombings and existential threat??

If that's your idea of successful and thriving, fine. It's not something I want to import into the U.K. thanks very much.

 

[meridian2]

As I said, point out a Christian majority country where Muslims are completely free from threats and/or discrimination.

You've counterpointed occasional harassment in some places from a minority of the population over religious affiliation, with a proven threat to wipe out members of a religious community completely and in the most unspeakable ways.

 

[EM2]

Apart from the regular suicide bombings and existential threat??

The President of Lebanon, and by extension the commander-in-chief of their armed forces, is always a Christian. The president of the Lebanese central bank is always a Christian.

 

[najaB]

A completely alien culture with diametrically opposing norms and customs.

I suggest you look a little more closely at your Christian history books. The only difference between Christianity and Islam is about 600 years.

And the pace of change is much, much faster in the Islamic world than it was in the Christian, thanks to modern communications. Young Muslims want to engage with the Western world - it's attitudes like yours that turn them against us and into the hands of the hardliners.

 

[Bromley boy]

The President of Lebanon, and by extension the commander-in-chief of their armed forces, is always a Christian. The president of the Lebanese central bank is always a Christian.

So what?

Pakistan had a female prime minister in the past. Do you think that means it's a good place to be female, gay or Christian??

 

[meridian2]

And the pace of change is much, much faster in the Islamic world than it was in the Christian, thanks to modern communications. Young Muslims want to engage with the Western world - it's attitudes like yours that turn them against us and into the hands of the hardliners.

As the birth rates of Muslims is twice that of Christians, and hugely greater than Western secularists, they could simply sit things out and still win the jackpot.