EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[najaB]

As the birth rates of Muslims is twice that of Christians, and hugely greater than Western secularists, they could simply sit things out and still win the jackpot.

That presumes that the majority want to 'win' anything. Most Muslims are like the most Christians - they just want to get on with their life and don't really have that much of an opinion about the 'competition'.

 

[EM2]

Pakistan had a female prime minister in the past. Do you think that means it's a good place to be female, gay or Christian??

Completely irrelevant to the role of Christianity in Lebanon.

 

[Bromley boy]

I suggest you look a little more closely at your Christian history books. The only difference between Christianity and Islam is about 600 years.

And the pace of change is much, much faster in the Islamic world than it was in the Christian, thanks to modern communications. Young Muslims want to engage with the Western world - it's attitudes like yours that turn them against us and into the hands of the hardliners.

The pace of change may be faster but they're starting from a much lower base point in terms of liberal values.

Regarding young Muslims wishing to integrate, I hope that's true and it's to be encouraged, but there's a very long way to go and recent experience has shown that there are HUGE problems with allowing large numbers of Islamic migrants into non islamic countries. Merkel has been unbelievably reckless in her actions. The results of her disastrous social experiment speak for themselves and rather prove my point.

My attitude? With respect, it's hand-wringing, myopic, naive attitudes like yours (and Merkel's) that have led to the enormous problems we are now seeing all over Europe with no doubt far more to come in the near future.

I speak for a great many people when I say enough is enough and I want the UK to take no part in this madness.!

 

[meridian2]

That presumes that the majority want to 'win' anything. Most Muslims are like the most Christians - they just want to get on with their life and don't really have that much of an opinion about the 'competition'.

As their life involves an enviable fertility rate, getting on with it is clearly working.

 

[Bromley boy]

Completely irrelevant to the role of Christianity in Lebanon.

With respect you've rather missed my point, which was that a Christian in a senior role in the Lebanese government has no bearing on daily life for Christians on the ground in Lebanon. Just as a female Pakistani politician hasn't done much for the lot of females in her country.

 

[Bromley boy]

Most Muslims are like the most Christians - they just want to get on with their life and don't really have that much of an opinion about the 'competition'.

That's not the experience in Europe over the last couple of years. You're arguing black is white if you believe that to be the case.

 

[EM2]

With respect you've rather missed my point, which was that a Christian in a senior role in the Lebanese government has no bearing on daily life for Christians on the ground in Lebanon. Just as a female Pakistani politician hasn't done much for the lot of females in her country.

One female Pakistani Prime Minister since 1947.
An unbroken line of Christian Lebanese Presidents since 1943.

 

[EM2]

That's not the experience in Europe over the last couple of years. You're arguing black is white if you believe that to be the case.

It's certainly my experience, having lived in a London borough that is 29% white British.

 

[Bromley boy]

It's certainly my experience, having lived in a London borough that is 29% white British.

Not encountered the "Muslim patrols" near brick lane, Isis flags in tower hamlets, then?

 

[EM2]

Not encountered the "Muslim patrols" near brick lane, Isis flags in tower hamlets, then?

Nope.

 

[Bromley boy]

Nope.

Fair enough.

Then again you'd probably ignore it if you did, given that you've already said you believe Lebanon is a good place to be a Christian, which itself suggests you aren't too well informed on these matters!

How do you think homosexual men are getting on in Iran? The ones that haven't been hanged, that is.

http://www.advocate.com/world/2016/8/05/teen-executed-gay-sex-iran-latest-long-trend

I'm sure you're well intentioned but you should think long and hard about the cultures and values you are defending here before we wind up with them in the uk.

 

[Darandio]

How do you think homosexual men are getting on in Iran? The ones that haven't been hanged, that is.

And to think only an hour ago that we thought talking Turkey had no relevance to the thread!

 

[Bromley boy]

And to think only an hour ago that we thought talking Turkey had no relevance to the thread!

Indeed

Too many rest days on my hands, clearly.

 

[najaB]

How do you think homosexual men are getting on in Iran? The ones that haven't been hanged, that is.

Just about as well as they're getting on in that nice Christian country, Uganda.

 

[EM2]

I'm sure you're well intentioned but you should think long and hard about the cultures and values you are defending here before we wind up with them in the uk.

I went to school in Walthamstow, where white students were a minority. I lived for nine years in Newham, where the white British population is now under thirty per cent. I now live near to Gravesend, which is about 40% non-Christian.
I have never, ever felt unsafe, been attacked, been abused or insulted. In general, people want to live their life as quietly and unobtrusively as possible.

EDIT - actually, that's not strictly true. I was actually punched when I lived in Newham, but that was by a white bloke with a bulldog tattoo.

 

[Bromley boy]

Just about as well as they're getting on in that nice Christian country, Uganda.

They're doing appallingly there as well.

To be clear I'm not for one minute arguing that this is about Christian versus Islam values. Fundamentalist Christian values are as abhorrent as their islamic equivalent.

What I'm arguing is thus the liberal values we now accept as normal in the uk are fundamentally incompatible with those in most Islamic countries. They are rooted in Christian values, plus the reformation, plus hundreds of years of development since. Islam hadn't gone through this process at all and is hundreds of years behind in terms of development (as I believe you pointed out upthread).

This is an interesting article on the prospect of an Islamic reformation.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rmation-extremism-muslim-martin-luther-europe

Most terrorist attacks happening in Europe in the last few years haven't been committed by fundamentalist Christians, as we all know.

 

[Tetchytyke]

None of those are relevant to the demand for a referendum.

I'm sure Nigel would have plenty to say if a narrow Remain vote had been taken as a mandate for Schengen and the Euro.

Bromley Boy, I think anyone who calls themself a Christian should be very careful about criticising other religions for their attitudes to homosexuality. Jamaica is a Christian country but is regarded as one of the most homophobic countries in the world: 10 years hard Labour for gays, assuming vigilantes don't get them first.

And even in this country, the former Bishop of Carlisle- hardly a niche or obscure religious post- blamed homosexuality for causing God to flood the country in revenge.

Most Muslim people are the same as you or I: they want a good job, their kids to do well and be happy, and friends and family around. Nothing more, nothing less. They're as mundane as we are.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And to add, we've had Muslims living up here in South Shields for 100 years, since WWI. The Yemenis came to fight alongside us and stayed. They're still Muslim. But they're as Geordie as anyone.

 

[najaB]

Most terrorist attacks happening in Europe in the last few years haven't been committed by fundamentalist Christians, as we all know.

And most drone strikes in the Arab world haven't been conducted by fundamentalist Muslims.

There's an asymmetric war going on, being prosecuted by radicals on both sides, which has little relevance to the attitudes or behaviours of moderates on either side.

 

[meridian2]

They're as mundane as we are.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Speak for yourself.

You're on a train forum at 2253 on a Saturday night. That's bloody mundane

As for Muslims being the terrorists of "recent years", Bromley Boy, a) define a terrorist and b) that comes as something of a shock to the victims of the IRA and the UVF.

How are you defining terrorists? Just the London bombers? If you're counting the murderer of Lee Rigby, why not the murderer of Jo Cox?

 

[Bromley boy]

I went to school in Walthamstow, where white students were a minority. I lived for nine years in Newham, where the white British population is now under thirty per cent. I now live near to Gravesend, which is about 40% non-Christian.
I have never, ever felt unsafe, been attacked, been abused or insulted. In general, people want to live their life as quietly and unobtrusively as possible.

EDIT - actually, that's not strictly true. I was actually punched when I lived in Newham, but that was by a white bloke with a bulldog tattoo.

I think most people what to live their lives as quietly and unobtrusively whenever in the world they they live.

The point is, you can only do so if you live within a society that tolerates your choice of lifestyle and your values. If you import enormous numbers of people who do not subscribe to your values and norms, they will be unable to live alongside you. We already see this in London which is increasingly ghettoised. You can't have failed to notice that in Newham, surely? Groups divided along religious lines that live in the same city but mix less and less.

Eventually, if enough of them come, the society you live in will start to reflect their values rather than yours and you will become the oppressed minority.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Bromley Boy, what are "our values"? Not a dig, a genuine question.

I ask because we had a senior Bishop within the Church our Queen is leader of blame gay people for flooding. The minister in charge of welfare benefits, Stephen Crabb, is a man who has previously promoted "gay cure therapy" and is funded by people who would see homosexuality outlawed. The owner of Britain's biggest bus company spent £1m of his own money to campaign against gay teenagers having the same rights as straight teenagers in school.

So what are "our values"?

 

[Bromley boy]

And most drone strikes in the Arab world haven't been conducted by fundamentalist Muslims.

There's an asymmetric war going on, being prosecuted by radicals on both sides, which has little relevance to the attitudes or behaviours of moderates on either side.

We will always disagree while-ever you see a moral equivalence between drone strikes and terrorist attacks.

It's not a war between radicals on both sides who are equivalent. It's a certain religion proving time and time again that they are unable to live peacefully amongst other denominations of the same religion, and also cannot tolerate other religions.

You live in a benign democracy where you are able to express these views freely. That is not guaranteed to be the case forever and we need to protect the values we hold.

 

[meridian2]

You're on a train forum at 2253 on a Saturday night. That's bloody mundane

That's because Friday night was anything but, so the choice is lying in a darkened room with two Paracetamol, or testing the depths of liberal narcissism on GD corner. Dealing with the knee jerk retorts of vanilla libs is marginally more illuminating than the interior of a velvet eyeshade, but only marginally.

 

[Bromley boy]

Bromley Boy, what are "our values"? Not a dig, a genuine question.

I ask because we had a senior Bishop within the Church our Queen is leader of blame gay people for flooding. The minister in charge of welfare benefits, Stephen Crabb, is a man who has previously promoted "gay cure therapy" and is funded by people who would see homosexuality outlawed. The owner of Britain's biggest bus company spent £1m of his own money to campaign against gay teenagers having the same rights as straight teenagers in school.

So what are "our values"?

Well that point ties into my belief that we need to be better in this country at defining "our" values. I imagine those can be loosely defined as liberal democratic values where people are free to live their lives without interference, practice their religion etc but within a framework of liberalism where people are treated equally irrespective of their gender, orientation or religion.

Sharia law, forced marriage, FGM, fundamentalist Christian values are incompatible with these and people choosing to live in this country should either subscribe to liberal values or simply live elsewhere.

The left in this country appear to be in bed with fundamentalist Islam which is a curious contradiction in terms. George Galloway and the "respect" party being a good example of this.

Far too nuanced and complex a discussion to get into on an Internet forum, but hopefully you get my drift.

 

[Bromley boy]

Speak for yourself.

I think we can safely say, as members of a rail forum, we're all pretty mundane.

I work in the industry, what are your excuses

 

[AlterEgo]

Well that point ties into my belief that we need to be better in this country at defining "our" values. I imagine those can be loosely defined as liberal democratic values where people are free to live their lives without interference, practice their religion etc but within a framework of liberalism where people are treated equally irrespective of their gender, orientation or religion.

Sharia law, forced marriage, FGM, fundamentalist Christian values are incompatible with these and people choosing to live in this country should either subscribe to liberal values or simply live elsewhere.

The left in this country appear to be in bed with fundamentalist Islam which is a curious contradiction in terms. George Galloway and the "respect" party being a good example of this.

Far too nuanced and complex a discussion to get into on an Internet forum, but hopefully you get my drift.

We don't need to be better at defining what we believe. We need to be better in defining what we absolutely won't tolerate.

 

[Bromley boy]

You're on a train forum at 2253 on a Saturday night. That's bloody mundane

As for Muslims being the terrorists of "recent years", Bromley Boy, a) define a terrorist and b) that comes as something of a shock to the victims of the IRA and the UVF.

How are you defining terrorists? Just the London bombers? If you're counting the murderer of Lee Rigby, why not the murderer of Jo Cox?

IRA/UVF are paramilitaries fighting for independence of a region. They are not religiously motivated terrorists who see everything through a prism of their ideology. They can be reasoned with politically when their aims and objectives are met.

Joe Cox's murderer was a lone nutcase, although I'll concede he could be termed a terrorist given his ideological motivation. The difference is one of frequency. Islamic terrorism is a different animal and is happening all over Europe.

 

[Bromley boy]

We don't need to be better at defining what we believe. We need to be better in defining what we absolutely won't tolerate.

We're already good at defining what we won't tolerate, reference the plethora of anti-hate crime legislation introduced over the last couple of decades.

Saying what we aren't rather than what we are leaves us with a huge moral vacuum, though, which can be easily exploited. Lots of young people in the UK are searching for an identity and sense of belonging which (irrespective of colour or creed) being "British" no longer gives.