Class 387 to GN

[bramling]

Surprisingly accurate This is also why some of the "First" seats are in the standard section, as there's too many to fit in the smaller section at the inner end of the carriage.. You'd hope the door could eventually be moved and this mess sorted, but I won't hold my breath.

This is what happens when we have trains being specified and designed by people who are not the ultimate end user, and moved about on a transient basis. Having said that, I thought the Electrostar was largely a modular train, so surely it shouldn't be that hard to move the partition and install a second one. Certainly the Anglia Turbostars have had interior changes. Have the refurbished Southern Electostars had partitions added (the Connex spec interior ones never had them as they were originally planned to be standard only, but the later Southern spec ones did)? One supposes that any cost above £zero is too much compared to just swapping the antimacassers and seat cushions round. <sigh>

 

[MikeWM]

Weird. I wonder if you can email to ask for sites to be looked at?

Otherwise it's VPN time, unless they block/throttle those? (Of course there are ways to circumvent that, but a bit of a hassle).

I should point out that my son was watching YouTube Kids. I doubt it makes any difference, but thought I'd mention it. You never know, the delivery might be slightly different and they simply haven't realised! I shall try normal YouTube next time I travel.

I tried it last night, it was blocked, as were other streaming video sites, but with a different message. The ones I'd seen for the cinema sites looked to be an off-the-shelf piece of filter software (with a Cisco logo). The one you get for YouTube etc. looks rather more bespoke to this particular network.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just looking back at the direction the 387s are facing. Just noticed today that all pantographs are facing the same direction on ECML. (313s, 365s, 387s and 91s)

Does it matter to network rail. (Doubt it as the 700s when they enter service will put and end to that)

But that may be the GTR logic.

 

[jopsuk]

I doubt it has any bearing on the infrastructure; there's fairly often 91s facing the other way and they all obviously run on both directions.

 

[Chester1]

Was there any consideration of using inter city trains for the Cambridge / Kings Lyn service? From an outsiders perspective it does seem odd to run 110mph EMUs in treble sets non stop between Kings Cross and Cambridge. Was transfering the express service to the East Coast Franchise or only serving smaller stops with a Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn all day service considered? Am I correct in thinking that by end of next year Great Northern will consist only of the Moorgate to Welwyn and Kings Cross to Cambridge North / Kings Lyn franchise? What was the thinking behind it? Did the sub franchise only survive because Grayling won't allow London Overground to take over Moorgate to Welwyn?

I don't know the area so I am curious as to how the service setup and choice of 387s came about.

 

[D365]

Again the KGX-PBO service seem to be forgotten. And you've completely missed the Hertford Loop?

 

[jopsuk]

Was there any consideration of using inter city trains for the Cambridge / Kings Lyn service? From an outsiders perspective it does seem odd to run 110mph EMUs in treble sets non stop between Kings Cross and Cambridge. Was transfering the express service to the East Coast Franchise or only serving smaller stops with a Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn all day service considered?

Yes, at one stage King's Cross-Cambridge-King's Lynn was considered for inclusion in the Intercity Express Programme. This would have seen "commuter" specification five car Class 801s ordered and potentially the services run by the East Coast franchise.

As it is, the 387s currently are only approved for 100mph operation on the ECML- and I don't think there's any running above 90mph once the services leave the ECML at Hitchin, with particularly slow bits through the junctions there, through Royston and Shepreth, and round the sharp curve at Shepreth Branch Junction

Am I correct in thinking that by end of next year Great Northern will consist only of the Moorgate to Welwyn and Kings Cross to Cambridge North / Kings Lyn franchise?

Yes and No. All the services will be run, as now, by Govia Thameslink Railway as franchisee of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Nothern franchise. As far is known, all services through St Pancras (off peak, the Cambridge slow and semi fast plus all Peterborough services) will be branded and announced as Thameslink, whilst all the Kings Cross and Moorgate services will be branded as Great Northern. At least during the current franchise- which runs until 2021. It's the same franchise- it is merely branding.

As far as I know the possibility of Moorgate to TfL control is still an open issue- but not until 2021. The shape of the 2021 franchise has not been fully decided yet

 

[yorkie]

...m I correct in thinking that by end of next year Great Northern will consist only of the Moorgate to Welwyn and Kings Cross to Cambridge North / Kings Lyn franchise? What was the thinking behind it? Did the sub franchise only survive because ....

There is no such thing as a "sub franchise"; Great Northern is merely a brand name, similar to Stansted Express (operated by AGA) and Northern Connect (operated by Northern).

However the way it is used is certainly confusing, so the misunderstanding is understandable!

 

[D365]

Great Northern will operate on the Class 365, 387 and 717 fleets. Simple.

 

[bramling]

Was there any consideration of using inter city trains for the Cambridge / Kings Lyn service? From an outsiders perspective it does seem odd to run 110mph EMUs in treble sets non stop between Kings Cross and Cambridge. Was transfering the express service to the East Coast Franchise or only serving smaller stops with a Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn all day service considered? Am I correct in thinking that by end of next year Great Northern will consist only of the Moorgate to Welwyn and Kings Cross to Cambridge North / Kings Lyn franchise? What was the thinking behind it? Did the sub franchise only survive because Grayling won't allow London Overground to take over Moorgate to Welwyn?

I don't know the area so I am curious as to how the service setup and choice of 387s came about.

I don't think IEPs would have worked. Whilst many Cambridge / Ely / Kings Lynn services run non-stop from London to Cambridge, many call at stations such as Letchworth and Royston, particularly at peak times. Whether this will survive long-term remains to be seen, however loss of very fast commuter services from busy stations like Royston and Letchworth would not go down well, especially if it forced people onto the undesirable 700s. Secondly, the services form commuter services in and out of Cambridge for stations such as Waterbeach, Ely and points north. An IEP layout with narrow doors wouldn't work well, it may just about work like we manage with 156s on Northern commuter services, but it's not ideal. Finally there may well be awkwardness in getting IEPs made up in optimum lengths - the Cambridge services currently tend to be 8x20m off-peak with the busiest services being 12x20m. This better suits 4-car units, unless wasteful max length fixed formations run all day, which would cause other issues north of Cambridge. The 387s aren't a bad solution at all, just pity the seats and ride quality aren't a bit more comfortable, plus they could do with a few more seats to better match the capacity of the 365s they replaced.

 

[Hadders]

As others have said Great Northern and Thameslink are both brands of the train operating company Govia Thameslink Railway.

I agree with @bramling that 387s are a suitable train for Cambridge express services but the interior layout of a 365 is far superior. An outer suburban layout rather than inter-city layout really is the best solution given the type of journey.

I suspect there will be occasions where a class 700 substitutes for a 387 on Cambridge express duties and vice versa in the future.

 

[Chester1]

Yes, at one stage King's Cross-Cambridge-King's Lynn was considered for inclusion in the Intercity Express Programme. This would have seen "commuter" specification five car Class 801s ordered and potentially the services run by the East Coast franchise.

As it is, the 387s currently are only approved for 100mph operation on the ECML- and I don't think there's any running above 90mph once the services leave the ECML at Hitchin, with particularly slow bits through the junctions there, through Royston and Shepreth, and round the sharp curve at Shepreth Branch Junction

Is there a capacity limitation on the Fen Line? 1tph per hour but 8 coaches is a very unusual combination! Could 2x5 IETs splitting at Cambridge North have worked combined with a Greater Anglia service from Liverpool Street?

If the 387s cannot run above 100mph on the ECML section of the route why were they chosen over a 100mph EMU? Did the Rosco offer a good deal etc?

There is no such thing as a "sub franchise"; Great Northern is merely a brand name, similar to Stansted Express (operated by AGA) and Northern Connect (operated by Northern).

However the way it is used is certainly confusing, so the misunderstanding is understandable!

Ah, so Thameslink and Great Northern are one opperation with different branding while Southern is a seperate franchise but the two were tendered together and had to be won by the same holding company?! I know Southern is run on a similiar basis to Merseyrail i.e. more accurately described as a concession. Is Thameslink/Great Northern the same?

 

[D365]

If the 387s cannot run above 100mph on the ECML section of the route why were they chosen over a 100mph EMU? Did the Rosco offer a good deal etc?

There are more of them [compared to the 377/5s]?

 

[Domh245]

I think that they were also available earlier than the 377/5s as well

 

[yorkie]

Ah, so Thameslink and Great Northern are one opperation with different branding while Southern is a seperate franchise but the two were tendered together and had to be won by the same holding company?! I know Southern is run on a similiar basis to Merseyrail i.e. more accurately described as a concession. Is Thameslink/Great Northern the same?

It is all one franchise (not a concession). There are other threads for this, but details of the TSGN franchise (operated by Govia Thameslink Railway) are here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/govia-thameslink; this contains all the answers you seek regarding the franchise spec. Please see relevant threads for discussion.

Can we get back on topic please? Thanks

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Cambridge would definitely benefit from being added to the East Coast franchise.

Oh and 387s are superior to 365s by far in my opinion

 

[Hadders]

Cambridge would definitely benefit from being added to the East Coast franchise.

In what way? VTEC wouldn't be able to run trains to Cambridge with the same capacity as the current trains.

Oh and 387s are superior to 365s by far in my opinion

Can you elaborate? Have you ever been on a 387, or a 365?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In what way? VTEC wouldn't be able to run trains to Cambridge with the same capacity as the current trains.



Can you elaborate? Have you ever been on a 387, or a 365?

Both actually, and regularly. Do you really suppose I would comment the above otherwise?

Class 365s have a 3x2 layout, smell foul, dirty pull down trays almost all of the time, old fashioned PIS, bumpy ride, noisy motors (yes I know some like them) and no proper tables. No armrests either, or unit gangways.

Class 387s have a smooth ride, 2x2 layout, armrests, full tables,
Clean pull down trays, and I am unusual in that I like the ironing board seats.

 

[bramling]

Both actually, and regularly. Do you really suppose I would comment the above otherwise?

Class 365s have a 3x2 layout, smell foul, dirty pull down trays almost all of the time, old fashioned PIS, bumpy ride, noisy motors (yes I know some like them) and no proper tables. No armrests either, or unit gangways.

Class 387s have a smooth ride, 2x2 layout, armrests, full tables,
Clean pull down trays, and I am unusual in that I like the ironing board seats.

Er, the Networker Express is 2+2 and always has been. The PIS has been upgraded to compare with 387s, and there's no way a 365 rides rougher than a 387 - quite the opposite in fact. Ditto the motors I'd say are no louder - and if you find them that unacceptable then there's two unpowered vehicles to choose from unlike just one on a 387. They also have the big benefits of managing to achieve both more seating and more standing room than a 387. Have you *really* been on a 365?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, and quite a few times but not since very early this year.

 

[Hadders]

The 365 have never had any 3+2 seating. It's always been 2+2 throughout. I travel on 365s almost daily and haven't noticed any foul smell.

If you travelled on the Great Northern route frequently you'd value the 365s over the 387s. Don't confuse the Networker 365 with the grubby networkers that work inner suburban services in south London....

 

[Chester1]

In what way? VTEC wouldn't be able to run trains to Cambridge with the same capacity as the current trains.

That is not necessarily true. A 9 coach (234m) 801 will have a capacity of 627 seats while a 12 coach (240m) Great Northern 3 x 387 set has 672 seats. An altered layout, more airline seating, no kitchen and less first class capacity could make up the difference. For the reasons people have posted it might not be a good idea though!

 

[bramling]

That is not necessarily true. A 9 coach (234m) 801 will have a capacity of 627 seats while a 12 coach (240m) Great Northern 3 x 387 set has 672 seats. An altered layout, more airline seating, no kitchen and less first class capacity could make up the difference. For the reasons people have posted it might not be a good idea though!

I can't see how an IEP could be split to achieve the same capacity as today. Five cars would be too short at some off-peak times, nine cars wasteful. Plus there would be wasted cab space. Only works with a fixed formation full length train, but this introduces its own operating problems. It might just about work if it was just London to Cambridge

Is there a capacity limitation on the Fen Line? 1tph per hour but 8 coaches is a very unusual combination! Could 2x5 IETs splitting at Cambridge North have worked combined with a Greater Anglia service from Liverpool Street?

If the 387s cannot run above 100mph on the ECML section of the route why were they chosen over a 100mph EMU? Did the Rosco offer a good deal etc?



Ah, so Thameslink and Great Northern are one opperation with different branding while Southern is a seperate franchise but the two were tendered together and had to be won by the same holding company?! I know Southern is run on a similiar basis to Merseyrail i.e. more accurately described as a concession. Is Thameslink/Great Northern the same?

Regarding the Fen Line, currently most services leave KX as 2x387, but detach one unit at Cambridge which then sits around for a few minutes before attaching to the front of the next up Kings Lynn service.

There are variations to the theme, such as a handful of services at the margins which run as one unit throughout, meanwhile there are some 3x387 services which detach or attach two units at Cambridge. Finally there are a couple of services which run as two units all the way to Kings Lynn.

Operationally, the restrictions which apply are still the same as with the 365s - at least as far as the timetable goes. Anything calling at Waterbeach, Littleport or Watlington will be a single unit, as will any down train calling at Meldreth, Shepreth or Foxton. Platform extensions are occurring at some of the latter as we speak. There are also some power supply limitations, though I've lost track of exactly what these are.

Finally, the Ely services tend to be eight cars throughout, except the few exceptions which are booked to call at Waterbeach. Many Ely services remain 365s in the current timetable.

There are capacity issues at Ely North Junction, although there is more than 1tph to Kings Lynn at certain times already. The rest of the route can support 2tph, subject to power limitations, albeit with some performance risk from the single line sections, which will be a massive spoiler for Thameslink's fragile service proposals.

 

[MCR247]

Cambridge would definitely benefit from being added to the East Coast franchise.

Why? What extra could they bring to the table, so to speak?

 

[Julia]

Operationally, the restrictions which apply are still the same as with the 365s - at least as far as the timetable goes. Anything calling at Waterbeach, Littleport or Watlington will be a single unit, as will any down train calling at Meldreth, Shepreth or Foxton. Platform extensions are occurring at some of the latter as we speak. There are also some power supply limitations, though I've lost track of exactly what these are.

Shepreth and Foxton on the down look pretty much complete - platform surface done, fencing done, monitors working, just waiting for a sign-off? Waterbeach due to start when those south of CBG are done.

IIRR the power restrictions are no more than 5x4car (or equivalent) drawing power between Milton and Littleport, and no more than 5x4 drawing power north of Littleport, at any one time, or the fuses go pop.

 

[Class465fan]

Both actually, and regularly. Do you really suppose I would comment the above otherwise?

Class 365s have a 3x2 layout, smell foul, dirty pull down trays almost all of the time, old fashioned PIS, bumpy ride, noisy motors (yes I know some like them) and no proper tables. No armrests either, or unit gangways.

Class 387s have a smooth ride, 2x2 layout, armrests, full tables,
Clean pull down trays, and I am unusual in that I like the ironing board seats.

So that obviously means that you've never travelled on a 365 then. The 365's never had 3+2 layout. The networkers that has 3+2 seating layouts are the SE networkers (Not sure about the networker turbos).

 

[jon0844]

So that obviously means that you've never travelled on a 365 then. The 365's never had 3+2 layout. The networkers that has 3+2 seating layouts are the SE networkers (Not sure about the networker turbos).

In the last six months some of them have become rather smelly though. Not sure if it's a maintenance issue but many toilets are locked out of use and if dated, the stickers suggest they've been locked for many days.

 

[bramling]

In the last six months some of them have become rather smelly though. Not sure if it's a maintenance issue but many toilets are locked out of use and if dated, the stickers suggest they've been locked for many days.

One wonders if the fleet may be being put into managed decline, with the prospect of units going off-lease. I think I'm right in saying the 700s are already a little later than planned. Certainly the fleet is working a little less intensively since the May timetable change, although they're still worked pretty hard. I've noticed a few units with very rough-sounding motors recently, which was pretty rare in the past.

Any CET-fitted train can smell, this is something the industry has never really managed to overcome. It's certainly not an issue unique to the 365 by any means at all, IME.

 

[bramling]

Shepreth and Foxton on the down look pretty much complete - platform surface done, fencing done, monitors working, just waiting for a sign-off? Waterbeach due to start when those south of CBG are done.

IIRR the power restrictions are no more than 5x4car (or equivalent) drawing power between Milton and Littleport, and no more than 5x4 drawing power north of Littleport, at any one time, or the fuses go pop.

They must be pretty close to that at peak times already, especially Milton to Littleport. One wonders if this applies to normal or exacerbated feeding, as electrification normally tends to be designed on the basis of one item of plant being able to be out. So whilst there may be a restriction imposed on timetabling, perhaps an issue only occurs on the ground if one of Kings Lynn FS or Milton FS is 'out' for any reason. Can any electrification engineers comment further?

I suppose in the event of issues it would be very easy to simply turn the Ely services at Cambridge to lessen the load on the section.

 

[class387]

Yes, and quite a few times but not since very early this year.

I think what you went on is a 465. What route was it?

P.S.. I disagree.