South Pennine Day Ranger & Cross Country trains

[nedchester]

Had a day out today with some friends on a South Pennine Day Ranger:

http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/special_offers/dayrangers/dayrangers_southpennines_2010.pdf

I travelled across from Stockport to Sheffield with Trans Pennine Express and then boarded a Cross Country service from Sheffield to Wakefield Westgate, Both Sheffield and Wakefield Westgate are within the area of the ranger.

On departure from Sheffield it was announced that the "Revenue Protection" team had boarded the train and all passengers were to have their tickets available for inspection.

On presentation of my ticket I was told that the ticket was not valid as the train 'didn't go via Barnsley'. I pointed out that there was the ticket was valid at both Sheffield and Wakefield and I couldn't see why there was a problem. The inspector said I should have checked. I showed him the map and pointed out to him that when I travelled from Stockport that I didn't check the train went via Edale!

I was told that I had to buy an excess or give my name and address and face possible prosecution for fare evasion. With basically 'Hobsons choice' I paid the £7.30 excess. However, I will be taking the matter up with Cross Country.

I have checked the leaflet and at no point does it say that it is not valid on Cross Country Trains between Sheffield and Wakefield. How am I supposed to know what route it takes between the two stations when it doesn't stop?

Any observations/suggestions before I fire off a letter to the MD of Cross Country trains?

 

[royaloak]

why send a letter to the MD, why cant you use the proper channels open to you?

 

[43167]

Got the leaflet in front of me now. Indeed it is not vaild between Wakefield & Sheffield via Moorthorpe as the map clearly shows. It is vaild on Cross-Country, between Leeds & Wakefield Westgate, plus Manchester Piccadilly & Stockport. Annoying I know, but on this occassion the revenue protection guy was in the right.

 

[nedchester]

why send a letter to the MD, why cant you use the proper channels open to you?

Why not?

Anyway I will be sending a letter to both the MD and the customer services department. It is acutely embarrassing to be accused of fare evasion in front of a trainload of passengers.

 

[Ivo]

Oh please. Typical Arriva attitude; i.e. money first, customer second. If you look on the leaflet it lists all TOCs that accept it (insofar as suggesting checking their timetables/website for train times). I quote:

For details of train times, please refer to Northern Rail timetables 8, 22, 23,
24, 25, 26, 27 and 33, Arriva TrainsWales, CrossCountry, East Coast, East
Midlands Trains, First TransPennine Express and Virgin Trains timetables or visit
our website. Alternatively, call National Rail Enquiries on 08457 48 49 50.

The only thing I can think of against this argument is Zonal tickets, which I guess this woukd qualify as in that it has similar area restrictions? However, think about this from an XC perspective: If service is diverted via Barnsley, would the ticket then be allowed? Surely if something would be accepted on diversion it should always be accepted.

 

[Mojo]

I have thought of this on my rover journeys in the past; and the main issue here is that it is impossible to know whether your ticket is valid because information on what points your train passes is not in the public domain.

I agree with the above, you should simply write a letter to CrossCountry Customer Relations who will deal with it. Simply enclose your excess (and a photocopy of your Day Ranger) and state that it is not possible for you to know what route the train takes, and as the points were joined on the map in the leaflet by a straight line by virtue your ticket should be valid, and that you would like a refund of £7.30 plus the cost of postage.

Make sure you keep a photocopy of the excess and also your original letter in case it gets lost.

 

[43167]

Like I said. The map shows the route via Barnsley, but not Moorthorpe. It also gives the stations going north of Sheffield, Barnsley, Darton & Wakefield Kirkgate (not served by XC).

But its a good point on XC services that get diverted. I have know XC services in the VXC days to actually call at Kirkgate when diverted, but that was nearly 10 years ago (god i am old).

Hate to say it, but on this occasion he was right, although he went abit far if he said you were fare dodging. Sounds more like you made a legitimate mistake.

 

[nedchester]

Got the leaflet in front of me now. Indeed it is not vaild between Wakefield & Sheffield via Moorthorpe as the map clearly shows. It is vaild on Cross-Country, between Leeds & Wakefield Westgate, plus Manchester Piccadilly & Stockport. Annoying I know, but on this occassion the revenue protection guy was in the right.

How am I supposed to know the train goes via Moorthorpe and not Barnsley? The train picks up at Sheffield and then is next stop Wakefield.

If it is not valid that way then the leaflet should say so.

 

[Mojo]

Yes, technically it is not valid, but there is no way for the ordinary passenger to know that as there is no way of determining what stations the train passes through and there is clearly a line on the map joining the two locations. The map on the National Rail website is somewhat clearer and I'm sure if the OP had seen that he would have known the journey was not allowed, although irrelevant in this case as the notices produced by the TOC show a map with a single line!

 

[43167]

I guess its a route you have never done before.

XC always go via Moorthorpe to get to Wakefield Westgate & Northern services to Wakefield Kirkgate go via Barnsley.

Plus I agree. A small note under the map would be helpful to those who dont know.

 

[yorkie]

They would never take such a thing to court, because they'd not win (IMO - I am not a lawyer!)

This is why TOCs should not be able to threaten prosecution so easily. It is absolutely wrong that they can do this. They threaten it knowing that the customer will cough up due to the fear of not winning, and the potential costs of fighting a case.

The taxpayer should not support the persecution of innocent customers by private companies that are making up rules and threatening their so-called customers.

I wish you luck, but I doubt they will do much about it now. They got what they wanted and the onus is now on you to persue them for money rather than the other way round.

It should be possible for them to be prosecuted for intimidation and threatening behaviour, and it should also be possible to prosecute them for failing to honour the NCoC. That would teach them. But as that isn't the case, expect these sort of incidents to continue to occur as they test the waters and see how many people they can bully into paying again.

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I guess its a route you have never done before.

XC always go via Moorthorpe to get to Wakefield Westgate

No they don't always. I've been on services that have gone via Barnsley (and I've also gone via Conisbrough, Doncaster & Adwick). It would be entirely valid via Barnsley on XC. Only a knowledgeable enthusiast or a regular commuter would know that XC normally (not always) go via Moorthorpe and avoid Barnsley. So XC are basically saying if you're not an enthusiast then they can threaten to prosecute you for not knowing the booked route in TRUST. That's a joke, and would be doomed to fail in the courts. I'd love to see a TOC back down when it came to taking something like this to court. Hopefully one day someone will call their bluff.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

How am I supposed to know the train goes via Moorthorpe and not Barnsley? The train picks up at Sheffield and then is next stop Wakefield.

Unfortunately this problem is quite common, and if I let everyone off then I might as well just never leave the cab.

Although I don't work the route discussed here, a similar problem regularly occurs on the routes I do work.

It is normally folk trying to use Leeds - Preston Rte Burnley tickets via Manchester, Leeds - Glasgow Rte Appleby tickets via York, Bradford - Manchester Rte Halifax tickets via Leeds and Dewsbury, Leeds to Lake District Rte Skipton tickets via Manchester or North West to Scotland Rte Lancaster /Carlisle tickets via York.

The excuse, virtually every time, is either "how was I meant to know which way the train went" or "that bloke on station said it would be alright".

In the interests of fairness to ALL passengers, including those that have already paid the correct fare, all of these tickets or excuses will incur an alternative route excess fare being charged. The passenger is then advised to contact customer relations if they think they have grounds for complaint of some sorts.

As an aside, "that bloke on the station" gets around a bit and always seems to give out lots of duff information!

 

[nedchester]

Unfortunately this problem is quite common, and if I let everyone off then I might as well just never leave the cab.

Although I don't work the route discussed here, a similar problem regularly occurs on the routes I do work.

It is normally folk trying to use Leeds - Preston Rte Burnley tickets via Manchester, Leeds - Glasgow Rte Appleby tickets via York, Bradford - Manchester Rte Halifax tickets via Leeds and Dewsbury, Leeds to Lake District Rte Skipton tickets via Manchester or North West to Scotland Rte Lancaster /Carlisle tickets via York.

The excuse, virtually every time, is either "how was I meant to know which way the train went" or "that bloke on station said it would be alright".

In the interests of fairness to ALL passengers, including those that have already paid the correct fare, all of these tickets or excuses will incur an alternative route excess fare being charged. The passenger is then advised to contact customer relations if they think they have grounds for complaint of some sorts.

As an aside, "that bloke on the station" gets around a bit and always seems to give out lots of duff information!

Well I paid my excess and a letter is now being fired off to Cross Country. Will let people on here know what happens.

If the ticket is not valid on Cross Country between Sheffield and Wakefield then it should say so on the leaflet. The example you give do at least have the routes listed ON THE TICKET. All that the ranger says is 'As Advertised'!!

 

[43167]

They would never take such a thing to court, because they'd not win (IMO - I am not a lawyer!)

This is why TOCs should not be able to threaten prosecution so easily. It is absolutely wrong that they can do this. They threaten it knowing that the customer will cough up due to the fear of not winning, and the potential costs of fighting a case.

The taxpayer should not support the persecution of innocent customers by private companies that are making up rules and threatening their so-called customers.

I wish you luck, but I doubt they will do much about it now. They got what they wanted and the onus is now on you to persue them for money rather than the other way round.

It should be possible for them to be prosecuted for intimidation and threatening behaviour, and it should also be possible to prosecute them for failing to honour the NCoC. That would teach them. But as that isn't the case, expect these sort of incidents to continue to occur as they test the waters and see how many people they can bully into paying again.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No they don't always. I've been on services that have gone via Barnsley (and I've also gone via Conisbrough, Doncaster & Adwick). It would be entirely valid via Barnsley on XC. Only a knowledgeable enthusiast or a regular commuter would know that XC normally (not always) go via Moorthorpe and avoid Barnsley. So XC are basically saying if you're not an enthusiast then they can threaten to prosecute you for not knowing the booked route in TRUST. That's a joke, and would be doomed to fail in the courts. I'd love to see a TOC back down when it came to taking something like this to court. Hopefully one day someone will call their bluff.

Ok, i will put it another way. The Normal route for XC is via Moorthorpe. But they have gone via Barnsley in the past normally on weekend diversions and at even short notice when the cable thieves have been doing their bit on the main line. Via Coinisborough, Doncaster & Adwick is another one thats happened in the past. Infact there used to be a booked service that went that way.

 

[yorkie]

Ok, i will put it another way. The Normal route for XC is via Moorthorpe. But they have gone via Barnsley in the past normally on weekend diversions and at even short notice when the cable thieves have been doing their bit on the main line. Via Coinisborough, Doncaster & Adwick is another one thats happened in the past. Infact there used to be a booked service that went that way.

And all the normal passengers should know this, according to XC? If not, they're treated as a criminal.

Right....

 

[43167]

Ok. Point taken.

As is it has been said, It should be made clear in the leaflet.

 

[nedchester]

Ok. Point taken.

As is it has been said, It should be made clear in the leaflet.

Which is the basis of my arguement in my letter to Cross Country.

 

[sarniasiren]

What a shambles!
I would have fallen foul of this as well.
Dont all TOC get a share of the ticket price of the rover? Therefore Cross Country get a share of the ticket price and then in addition charge an excess fare!

Is it possible that CC may say its not their problem in that Northern have caused the problem in their leaflet?

Obviously something like this spoils the whole purpose of buying the ticket in the first place and likely to put others off in the future.

 

[John @ home]

Although I don't work the route discussed here, a similar problem regularly occurs on the routes I do work.

It is normally folk trying to use Leeds - Preston Rte Burnley tickets via Manchester, Leeds - Glasgow Rte Appleby tickets via York, Bradford - Manchester Rte Halifax tickets via Leeds and Dewsbury, Leeds to Lake District Rte Skipton tickets via Manchester or North West to Scotland Rte Lancaster /Carlisle tickets via York.

I don't agree that the problem is similar. In all the cases you quote, the trains by the authorised route and those by the more expensive TPE route make several internediate stops. Information is therefore in the public domain about whether any partiular train passes through Burnley, Appleby, Halifax, Skipton or Lancaster.

This is not the case for nedchester's non-stop Sheffield to Wakefield journey using a South Pennines Day Ranger. The leaflet which advertises this product includes a map which shows validity for a route between Sheffield and both Wakefield stations. The paragraph on "Timetable Information" in the leaflet states that it is valid on CrossCountry trains.

Most Sheffield - Wakefield CrossCountry trains are non-stop and the route taken by a particular train is not in the public domain. Route changes with short or no notice are not infrequent. Unfortunately the most common reason for such route changes in recent months appears to be cable theft. In September 2009, I travelled on a Leeds - Sheffield train whose route through Wakefield was changed after the train had left Leeds, probably due to cable theft.

In these circumstances, the behaviour of the railway industry in surcharging nedchester £7.30 is outrageous. I am confident that he has several avenues available to him to recover the money unfairly charged and I encourage him to pursue these with vigour.

The railway industry does itself a great deal of damage by incidents like this. It is a matter of debate whether the fault lies with the design of the product, the drawing of the map, the wording of the leaflet, the briefing given to the CrossCountry staff or a combination of these and other factors. Meanwhile, the outcome is to deter members of the public from using the railway.

 

[badzena]

I was told by a Cross Country guard the other day that my West Mids Day Ranger wasn't valid between New Street and Leamington Spa, despite me having a map that showed otherwise. Her reasoning was that as Leamington is in Warwickshire it couldn't possibly be valid. The guards really should be given better training.

 

[Mojo]

Oh dear! Yes, rover areas are quite confusing. Infact I had 2 XC guards both ask me on separate occasions if my East Midlands Rover was valid to Tamworth (but did not tell me it wasn't valid, I think neither knew). Surprisingly though I had no trouble using the rover between Peterborough/Grantham and Doncaster on East Coast or Hull Trains. I wonder what TPx would say if they saw an East Midlands Rover in Cleethorpes, or Virgin/LM in Milton Keynes!

 

[scrapy]

On a seperate issue some XC guards/revenue staff are refusing to accept Northern Duo tickets between Stoke and Macclesfield and Macclesfield and Manchester. Passengers are being told they are valid on Northern only and being made to buy new tickets, even though i'm sure XC are still happilly taking their share of revenue for them.

 

[Ferret]

What a shambles!

Is it possible that CC may say its not their problem in that Northern have caused the problem in their leaflet?

I'd say that's entirely possible but I expect XC will raise this with Northern - after all, Nedchester is the customer!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Unfortunately this problem is quite common,

. . . .

It is normally folk trying to use Leeds - Preston Rte Burnley tickets via Manchester, Leeds - Glasgow Rte Appleby tickets via York, Bradford - Manchester Rte Halifax tickets via Leeds and Dewsbury, Leeds to Lake District Rte Skipton tickets via Manchester or North West to Scotland Rte Lancaster /Carlisle tickets via York.

The excuse, virtually every time, is either "how was I meant to know which way the train went" or "that bloke on station said it would be alright".

I'm sympathetic to your view in these examples, kwvr45.
However, the "Day Ranger" is a different category of product, its not a point to point ticket.
Their validity, as you know, covers a network of locations and intercrossing routes.
The map for this Ranger shows about 40 stations

The product authorises unspecified journeys across that network and does not requre the traveller to use any particular station; instead, it allows them to choose their own routes; and as many journeys between points on that map as they wish.

Just hop on and off the train as many times as you wish

I would quite happily regard that map as confirming validity on a direct service between between ANY two points on that map. In fact, we HAVE to use the map to determine validity, because the ticket will not specify the stations. With a point to point ticket, we could revert to the Routing Guide and instructions routing validity. But we can't apply those procedures to a Ranger/Rover product. But being cautious, I might also look for the published restrictions. There are some, but they only limit the hours of travel. Consequently, I'm struggling to see how we can expect route-specific restrictions to apply to the Day Ranger product when travelling between any two points on that map.
The "off-map" route is invisible to anyone using the map, and being invisible, we can make no judgement about it when using the map. And validity is defined only by that map.

Restrictions may apply, but they must not be invisible (or unstated in words).

Got the leaflet in front of me now. Indeed it is not vaild between Wakefield & Sheffield via Moorthorpe as the map clearly shows. It is vaild on Cross-Country, between Leeds & Wakefield Westgate, plus Manchester Piccadilly & Stockport. Annoying I know, but on this occassion the revenue protection guy was in the right.

But the map does NOT inform you that its "not vaild between Wakefield & Sheffield via Moorthorpe as the map clearly shows". "Clearly"? You're reaching that conclusion using an invisible route; the map is silent about Moorthorpe as it is about junctions loops and minor alternative routes, of which there's quite a few in these regions (such as around Swinton or Ashton). Any reasonably informed traveller might already be aware that a point to point ticket is valid by a direct service, so will require additional information to disapply that restriction to that map of validity.

Can you, in all honesty look at that map, and the printed restrictions on validity, and find ANY grounds for refusal when travelling direct from Sheffield to Wakefield?
As someone who has a little familiarity with routes in Yorkshire, I would never have thought that the OP's journey could be invalid

 

[Spartacus]

I've used this before and always expected the route between Wakefield Westgate and Sheffield to be invalid since it doesn't appear on the map. The only valid direct route between Sheffield and Wakefield being via Kirkgate, not Westgate.

However I don't think the Barnsley vs Moorthorpe arguement is valid on it's own considering it is possible to route via Moorthorpe, Kirkgate then Westgate if the service was diverted, although it'd be rare. I reckon same would go if you were diverted via Moorthorpe then Normanton, missing out Wakefield altogether!!

 

[158757]

This is very interesting, I did this route Sheffield-Wakefield Westgate with XC on a South Pennines and the guard said he had never seen the ticket, so he rang Control to check. I was a little worried but when he came back he said yes, it was fine to use it on this route, and if any guards asked in the future to advise them as it was the first time he had seen this ticket. I travelled on the following service, if you're interested:

06 Feb 2010 Sheffield Wakefield Westgate XC 220031 1E67 21:21 21:49

 

[43167]

But the map does NOT inform you that its "not vaild between Wakefield & Sheffield via Moorthorpe as the map clearly shows". You're reaching that conclusion using an invisible route; the map is silent about Moorthorpe as it is about junctions loops and minor alternative routes, of which there's quite a few in these regions (such as around Swinton or Ashton). Any reasonably informed traveller might already be aware that a point to point ticket is valid by a direct service, so will require additional information to disapply that restriction to that map of validity.

Can you, in all honesty look at that map, and the printed restrictions on validity, and find ANY grounds for refusal when travelling direct from Sheffield to Wakefield?
As someone who has a little familiarity with routes in Yorkshire, I would never have thought that the OP's journey could be invalid

Like I said since. It could be made alot more clear and to be honest, no I cant see any reason for refusal.

There are 2 options available to Northern for the next time they print the leaflets. Add a note saying its not vaild via that route, or better from our point, add that route to the map.

 

[nedchester]

Thanks for the comments on here. I thought it a good idea to canvass the views of people on here as we have many who work on the retail side of the railway.

It seems to me that the general view is that I was correct to believe that the ticket is valid via the route unless expressly forbidden in the leaflet.

Letter off in the post this morning so they should get it on Tuesday so as I have said before I will inform this group of the reply.

 

[amn140174]

Could the same not be said about the Tyne Tees day ranger. Its on the map as being valid Darlington to Northallerton Via Thornaby. Would someone without local knowledge know its not valid direct as a non stop train will not travel via Thornaby.

 

[yorkie]

Could the same not be said about the Tyne Tees day ranger. Its on the map as being valid Darlington to Northallerton Via Thornaby. Would someone without local knowledge know its not valid direct as a non stop train will not travel via Thornaby.

I'd expect a Tyne Tees Day Ranger that is valid at Darlington and Newcastle to be valid at Durham and I could certainly see that as confusing. Normally the most direct route would be valid and long ways round may not be valid. So it very probably would seem odd to a 'normal' passenger that it is the other way round for some tickets!