Bizzare Fares

[bnm]

I see your point completely. But at least there are sources, like this forum, where those "not in the know", can find out such anomalies from posters. It's not ideal but the information is there for those who want it.

Not always. From my PMs:

Keep this one to yourself.

 

[387star]

Is there a map to show which operators set fares for which routes because they are nonsensical

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think there is a map, but Avantix tell will tell you who sets the fares you're looking at.

 

[Squaddie]

The only proper way to simplify fares is to have a flat rate per mile - is that what we want?

That is exactly what I would like to see - although the cost per mile should gradually reduce as the distance increases so that longer trips cost relatively less than short ones. Get rid of all Advance tickets, reduce the price of walk-on tickets to compensate and make a half-price railcard available to everyone (as they do in Switzerland). A return ticket should cost twice the price of a single ticket, and First Class 50% more than Standard. What's so difficult about that? Our present system is a disgrace.

 

[premier01]

That is exactly what I would like to see - although the cost per mile should gradually reduce as the distance increases so that longer trips cost relatively less than short ones. Get rid of all Advance tickets, reduce the price of walk-on tickets to compensate and make a half-price railcard available to everyone (as they do in Switzerland). A return ticket should cost twice the price of a single ticket, and First Class 50% more than Standard. What's so difficult about that? Our present system is a disgrace.

Although this would need to be more comprehensive I think this is a logical plan : -)

 

[yorkie]

That is exactly what I would like to see - although the cost per mile should gradually reduce as the distance increases so that longer trips cost relatively less than short ones. Get rid of all Advance tickets, reduce the price of walk-on tickets to compensate and make a half-price railcard available to everyone (as they do in Switzerland). A return ticket should cost twice the price of a single ticket, and First Class 50% more than Standard. What's so difficult about that? Our present system is a disgrace.

OK, this does crop up every so often so I am going to ask my standard questions whenever this crops up. Let's see if you can be the first to answer them

What price would the following journeys cost (where there are differential prices for peak/off peak, please specify. Also if you are reducing the validity or providing different routeing options that exist today, again please specify):

- Peterborough to Nottingham; (currently £19.80 CDR, £22.50 SVR, £29 SOR)
- Peterborough to Leicester; (currently N/A CDR, £18.40 SVR, £33.00 SOR)
- Cattal to Dronfield; (currently £17.20 CDR, N/A SVR, £19.90 SOR)
- Sherburn-in-Elmet to Whitby avoiding Darlington (currently £12.10 CDR, N/A SVR, N/A SOR)

Thanks

 

[moonrakerz]

reduce the price of walk-on tickets to compensate ..................

You cannot be serious !!!!!

 

[bb21]

- Peterborough to Leicester; (currently N/A CDR, £18.40 SVR, £33.00 SOR)

CDR existed until a few years back when someone removed them

 

[LexyBoy]

Is there a map to show which operators set fares for which routes because they are nonsensical

As ainsworth said, Avantix will tell you; alternatively if you go to the National Rail website and look up the fare then select "or view summary" it will show you who prices the ticket (as the suggested retailer).

 

[John @ home]

go to the National Rail website and look up the fare then select "or view summary" it will show you who prices the ticket (as the suggested retailer).

This doesn't always work. For example, Crewe - Warrington Stations is priced by Northern, who do not offer online purchasing. The "Journey summary" offers only the option Buy from another ticket provider without indicating which company sets the fare.

 

[LexyBoy]

This doesn't always work. For example, Crewe - Warrington Stations is priced by Northern, who do not offer online purchasing. The "Journey summary" offers only the option Buy from another ticket provider without indicating which company sets the fare.

Fair enough - I didn't realise there were TOCs which don't sell tickets online (though I did know Northern didn't have ticket collection facilities, so that makes sense!). If there's only one TOC in the area who doesn't offer online sales then it's still possible to work it out...

 

[mickey]

Get rid of all Advance tickets, reduce the price of walk-on tickets to compensate and make a half-price railcard available to everyone (as they do in Switzerland). A return ticket should cost twice the price of a single ticket, and First Class 50% more than Standard.

So why have most other European countries followed our lead and moved towards more Advance tickets themselves? Because, despite the problems, it's a great way of increasing overall patronage and revenue, particularly at times when trains are less busy.

Similarly, charging First at a flat 50% premium makes no allowance for the different services, e.g. catering, available at different times, so it will be even more crammed at peak times (when it's better value) and empty at others (when it's not).

As soon as you start to take account of these issues you start getting considerably closer to what we have now. I'm not trying to defend the system, but there are benefits to it.

 

[yorkie]

I think market-based pricing is the way to go. Zonal pricing is fine for urban centres. Mileage based pricing is fraught with difficulties, as anyone attempting to answer the questions I posed earlier in this topic, will soon see.

Advance fares are a method of dealing with yield management; dealing with peaks and troughs in demand. In this era of more easily being able to monitor loadings, less spare stock, and computerised systems, it is not surprising that they are increasing in usage, availability and popularity.

 

[martinsh]

This doesn't always work. For example, Crewe - Warrington Stations is priced by Northern, who do not offer online purchasing. .

Why ?? Northern (and their predecessors) have NEVER run Crewe - Warrington. Only ever run by XC and Virgin AFAIK.

 

[Masboroughlad]

There are a million situations like yours around the country! It all depends on how popular a route is amongst other things basically!

If you do a Bristol - Birmingham trip and split your ticket at cheltenham, you save a good third on the direct price!

But it is so wrong!! Ticket pricing should not be as sneaky as it is.

We need more transparent ticketing policies in the UK.

 

[John @ home]

Crewe - Warrington Stations is priced by Northern

Why ?? Northern (and their predecessors) have NEVER run Crewe - Warrington.

That's nothing! Edinburgh Park - Windermere is priced by CrossCountry and neither has ever been served by that TOC.

 

[mickey]

That's nothing! Edinburgh Park - Windermere is priced by CrossCountry and neither has ever been served by that TOC.

But XC did serve the WCML, which is the main artery linking them. Journeys don't have to be priced by someone who serves the named stations - imagine if West Kirby (Merseyrail) to Epsom were priced by Merseyrail or SWT, for example.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But XC did serve the WCML, which is the main artery linking them.

:roll: But it doesn't anymore. XC should certainly transfer ownership of this particular fare flow to Virgin or possibly TPE.

I believe that there are numerous other fare flows in the North West which XC still have ownership for which they ought no longer to have (!)

 

[valedave]

OK, this does crop up every so often so I am going to ask my standard questions whenever this crops up. Let's see if you can be the first to answer them

What price would the following journeys cost (where there are differential prices for peak/off peak, please specify. Also if you are reducing the validity or providing different routeing options that exist today, again please specify):

- Peterborough to Nottingham; (currently £19.80 CDR, £22.50 SVR, £29 SOR)
- Peterborough to Leicester; (currently N/A CDR, £18.40 SVR, £33.00 SOR)
- Cattal to Dronfield; (currently £17.20 CDR, N/A SVR, £19.90 SOR)
- Sherburn-in-Elmet to Whitby avoiding Darlington (currently £12.10 CDR, N/A SVR, N/A SOR)

Thanks

As someone who has absolutely no idea about UK rail fare pricing, can you explain to me why these routes would be so problematic with a distance-based pricing system?

Reading the Fares section of this forum makes my eyes water sometimes - especially when discussing season tickets...€3,800 will get you a season ticket for the entire German rail network!

 

[MattyBungle]

Sometimes there are the odd dirt cheap fares that creep in by mistake. A few years ago Arriva Trains Northern had single fares from Huddersfield to Glasgow Via Appleby for £0.10!!! It was only meant to reserve the ticket but appeared in all the manuals, I took the Wife and Kid to Glasgow for a very cheap deal!!

 

[mickey]

:roll: But it doesn't anymore. XC should certainly transfer ownership of this particular fare flow to Virgin or possibly TPE.

I believe that there are numerous other fare flows in the North West which XC still have ownership for which they ought no longer to have (!)

Not just the north west either - and it's not just XC either, come to think of it. There's definitely a case for redistribution, but only if it is a nationwide project.

 

[Statto]

I'm looking at going from Liverpool to Hull 2nd May[Bank Holiday]the SVR is £57, yet i can save about £10 if i split my tickets, & go Liverpool-Manchester then Manchester-Leeds & Leeds to Hull.

It's impossible to ban using split tickets, especially if you need to change trains on route & to a different TOC.

 

[WestCoast]

It's impossible to ban using split tickets, especially if you need to change trains on route & to a different TOC.

It is true, split ticketing can't be banned without a re-write of the whole of the T&Cs.

 

[Deerfold]

But it is so wrong!! Ticket pricing should not be as sneaky as it is.

We need more transparent ticketing policies in the UK.

What do you mean by trasparent? I think it's quite clear if you read enough that the government's policy is to increeae the proportion of money going into the railway system paid for by fares and decrease the amount paid for by taxpayers (that doesn't mean taxpayers are getting better value of course). This seems to have been unchanged by the change of government except perhaps for an acceleration of the policy.

However the government is quite happy for the operators to work out exactly how this is going to happen as they then take most of the flak.

 

[mickey]

It is true, split ticketing can't be banned without a re-write of the whole of the T&Cs.

It would have to extend to 'you must enter and leave the station with each ticket' for it to have any chance of succeeding, as even forcing people to leave the train would just let them jump back on. Even then some splits would be possible - the xx04 LIV-BHM sits at Crewe for at least 10 minutes most of the time, which is easily enough time to leave and re-enter the station, and possibly buy a drink outside too!

Thankfully, I don't think it would ever happen.

 

[yorkie]

:roll: But it doesn't anymore. XC should certainly transfer ownership of this particular fare flow to Virgin or possibly TPE.

I believe that there are numerous other fare flows in the North West which XC still have ownership for which they ought no longer to have (!)

There is nothing to stop Virgin/TPE putting in such a request to ATOC. Though I'm told that they have to put together a case to justify why they should own the flow, and there may be a cost. I'd say both TPE and Virgin would have a case, with Virgin's being stronger.

The only case I know of was put together by XC to gain control from Chiltern for flows between places like Banbury/Leamington to Birmingham. This was so that they could increase the prices, of course, and introduce draconian evening peak restrictions on Off Peak Day tickets (but not Off Peak tickets, despite ATOC saying that more restrictive tickets will be prefixed with Super).

No TOC is going to put in such a bid unless they want to use it for anti-customer purposes, to be honest.

I think Virgin will be delighted that XC are setting the fares on the northern WCML, as that means the following:
1) They are expensive (good for Virgin; more revenue) AND
2) They can say it's not their fault that it's expensive!

So why are Virgin going to put a case to take over those flows? It's not in their interests to!

Of course this does highlight what a farce the idea of allowing different TOCs to set fares, and not doing it centrally. I think this idea was one of the fundamental principals of privatisation back in 1994.

 

[Jollycam]

With reference to the Leamington Spa to Birmingham pricing, Chiltern were very happy to put notices around Leamington station telling everyone that XC were responsible for the new Off-Peak restrictions when introduced, whilst also providing the address to write to at XC stating that is they who they should complain to as XC set the ticket price and conditions. After all, making another company look bad is all good publicity in a competitive world!

Then guess what....a year or so later, and Chiltern introduce Off-Peak restrictions on tickets from Birmingham (e.g. to Warwick) when LM introduced their new restrictions from Birmingham. It will come as no surprise that this wasn't introduced with the same level of publicity as to whom people should complain to!

Also, the Birmingham to Leamington ticket price has been ramped up so much by XC that there are many cheaper tickets out there that are valid for the journey, with the cheapest possible return ticket not even priced by a TOC!

Actually, I've just found an even cheaper possible ticket but I'd like to see someone explain it to the barrier staff at Birmingham

 

[Multiple Unit]

Most Bizzare Ticket of all is From Garswood to Chester Route Warrington £4.80 With Rail card its over £9.00 from Wigan and you have to go in to Wigan to changre for Warrington so ?

 

[phil35]

With reference to the Leamington Spa to Birmingham pricing, Chiltern were very happy to put notices around Leamington station telling everyone that XC were responsible for the new Off-Peak restrictions when introduced, whilst also providing the address to write to at XC stating that is they who they should complain to as XC set the ticket price and conditions. After all, making another company look bad is all good publicity in a competitive world!

Then guess what....a year or so later, and Chiltern introduce Off-Peak restrictions on tickets from Birmingham (e.g. to Warwick) when LM introduced their new restrictions from Birmingham. It will come as no surprise that this wasn't introduced with the same level of publicity as to whom people should complain to!

Also, the Birmingham to Leamington ticket price has been ramped up so much by XC that there are many cheaper tickets out there that are valid for the journey, with the cheapest possible return ticket not even priced by a TOC!

Actually, I've just found an even cheaper possible ticket but I'd like to see someone explain it to the barrier staff at Birmingham

Any chance you want to share? Could do with saving myself a few quid on that route

 

[Multiple Unit]

Do any of the Barrier Staff at Birmingham NS actually look at tickets as I have been through there a number of times and no one seems to flater an eye lid at your ticket.