Would you have worked these days if you had not been on strike?
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Possible Movement in RMT Dispute.
- Thread starter Solent&Wessex
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dk1
Veteran Member
So how I see it is that RMT members if accepting the deal will get 5% fully backdated to April 2022 which will be very welcome. No changes to T&Cs. No redundancies guaranteed to the end of 2024. Ticket office closure plan withdrawn. Then in February further talks can restart. The You Tube response from Mick Lynch tonight sets things out.
Along with the ASLEF agreement with Northern announced today, the tone seems to have suddenly changed.
Facing Back
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I hope you are right about the tone changing. It still seems to me to be almost exactly the same offer as the last one. There was always a 5% deal on the table with no changes to T&C's so long as the dispute was ended. The difference is that there was an explicit statement that there would be a discussion on T&C's with next year's rise being contingent on successful conclusion.
Now we have a statement "That proposals that arise from subsequent discussions in each TOC will be subject to NEC scrutiny and decision".
I don't see the difference - both options shunted the discussion on T&C's into next year.
A good spot, to be honest I'd forgotten there was another deal given how long this has been going on. It remains the case though that the government have backed down on station staffing changes.
Timetraveller
Member
The rail delivery group tocs, still want workforce development changes for February /April 2024 so is it just kicking the can down the road ? The changes as before ticket closure plan was announced was to close ticket office windows and have staff on the concourse. Multi skilled staff on minimum wage. RDG/Government haven't leaned the lesson of the overwhelming result of the consultation. So the devil is still in the detail.
Midlands5678
Member
It was a 2 year deal with the first 5% with no strings DEPENDANT upon accepting 4% WITH changes.
Therefore it’s entirely different.
Facing Back
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They have backed down on wholesale ticket office closures to be sure.
The 5% was never DEPENDANT on accepting the 4%. It was dependent only on ending the dispute, and the understanding of going into negotiations on the 4% and changes at a TOC level (as I remember it - I'm well out of date here)
Is there a detailed report on the results of the consultation which support all of that - I'd be interested in reading it? All I've heard is that the concerns from the public over knowing where the member of staff can be found outweighs any marginal benefit which may exist from them being able to conduct other functions more easily if they are not in a ticket office.
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XIX7007177
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Basically the government have wasted millions of taxpayers money dragging this out when they could have made this offer right at the start.
dk1
Veteran Member
Seem to recall that being stated by a West Country MP at a select committee meeting early this year yet still they stubbornly persevered with this pantomime.
Yes it will if your not approaching retirement. It's easy to forget the power of compounding. If you are still a conductor in 20 years then the monetary loss may well be recouped by then with a little interest.
Facing Back
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No if you would have achieved 5% without the strikes. I can't recall what the opening offers were but 5% has been on the table for many months.
Only booked Sundays. So was quite easy to pick up an extra Sunday and/or Rdw. My last p60 was around £100 less than the previous year
Timetraveller
Member
Yes certainly transport focus have published reports for each of the TOCs in their response to the consultation. Breakdown by stations mentioned, number received with general comments and overall response for each TOC.
Example from Transport focus website hyperlink attached documents to download with response for South western railway. https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/p...s-to-ticket-offices-transport-focus-response/
For GTR example documents hyperlink is
Govia Thameslink Railway’s proposed changes to ticket offices: Transport Focus response - Transport Focus
Transport Focus has responded to the proposed changes to Govia Thameslink Railway’s ticket offices. We have published our assessment of all of the individual stations and overall proposals and correspondence with the operator during the consultation process. Accessible versions of these...
Nobody can promise no compulsory redundancy ever. That is just absurd.
Facing Back
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Cheers
RMT have a different problem, in that they can’t put the same deal to their members twice. Even if, say, the deal was not expalined properly first time. Thats why you often see very very minor changes to the deal - often ‘cost neutral’ to the employer, to enable RMT to out another vote out, particularly on longer disputes.
They can call strikes up to then, but I think its unlikely.
dk1
Veteran Member
Fabulous television wasn’t it?
dk1
Veteran Member
No problem mate. ASLEF have agreed a rest day working agreement for six months with Northern. Not had one sanctioned for years. Hopefully if all goes well extensions will follow as with other TOCs.
What reforms are being proposed for discussion in Feb 2024? Is it still the same list from April minus the ticket office closures? Many train crew seemed to specifically dislike the spare proposals and if these could still be on the table for a potentially agreed set of discussions in February without the ability to ballot for action again until May then I think some wouldn't be too impressed.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Pushing it out is useful, because that might be into a different Government or at least closer to that.
Solent&Wessex
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The key elements of this offer are similar, if not the same.
They are one or two subtle but very important differences.
The April offer was indeed 5% for Year 1.
However, if you accepted that offer then you were duty bound to proceed to Stage 2, which were discussions for Yr 2. This was a 4% pay rise which was subject to efficiencies, workforce reform etc.
The terms of the agreement were that discussions on workforce reform would last for 3 months, and if at the end no agreement was reached and all avenues and processes exhausted, the wording indicated that the TOCS would impose the changes anyway, and you would forfeit the 4% yr 2 pay rise and all the workforce guarantees would be withdrawn.
Thus, in reality, the changes they wanted would be imposed regardless. You either agreed to them locally and got 4% or you didn't agree to them, got nothing, and they were imposed anyway.
In addition there was a lengthy document detailing the changes that would be required as a minimum in all TOCS, which of course took no account of existing local ts and cs, agreements, rates of pay etc.
This time the tone is very different.
Primarily there is no mention of the the changes being imposed regardless if they are not agreed to, and more emphasis on local discussions, local proposals and local agreement.
There is also no mention of what the 2023 pay rise might be. The 4% figure is not quoted. So there is scope potentially for a higher figure depending on how discussions go locally. I.e. if you give up more you get more, unlike last time when you got 4% no matter how much you had to give up.
The wording does imply that there won't be a 2023 pay rise if some changes are not agreed, but as the required changes are not listed it is open for local debate on what changes may suit each TOC based on existing ts and cs, and in addition it doesn't suggest they will be imposed regardless.
It is not completely different to the last one, but it is different enough to be more flexible to take account of each TOCS situation and allow for discussions without the threat of imposition regardless. Principally accepting Yr 1 does not bind you in to accepting the proposed changes regardless.
And therefore it would get my vote.
Deepgreen
Established Member
Their area of expertise. The whole exercise was just to attempt to show that the Tories were/are standing up to strikes and unions, when they have failed utterly and have only made themselves look weaker, and unable to manage a drinking event in a fermenting factory.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
Whilst I’m very keen to see this settled I’m still worried about whether any changes to T&Cs will be hidden in cleverly worded sentences or expected during the next pay deal.
Solent&Wessex
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The next pay deal will require some changes it seems yes.
Sadly I suspect that is unavoidable and no amount of striking will remove that entirely, but with local proposals and local discussions it should be possible to make more sensible local agreements based on the existing ts and cs in each TOC, which are of course all different and the reason that a blanket "4% for this this and this" was never going to work.
If the RMT negotiators could have got an offer of a pause until talks beginning in June 24, that may have been very very clever, particularly if a general election was called for May.
As it stands, if anything I think the February to April proposed discussion timetable works in the government's favour, as they effectively get the chance to bring their reforms to the table (via RDG) with a view to implementation with every intention for discussions to be concluded at the end of April. Thus potentially being successful in getting through some of their reforms at the very last minute before the Tories could be toast.
If things were not able to be concluded as far as if talks had been scheduled for later on than February, and there was a new incoming government then I feel the whole picture could have been different.
I don't think they're even hidden. Mick Lynch clearly states that if accepted, they will enter a set of talks on reforms in February. If that isn't talks on T&C changes then I'll eat my trousers.
The concerning thing this time, is that nobody seems to now know what the proposed reforms for potential discussion in February are. Last time, the list had been published with the offer.
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Train_manager
Member
1.5 billion wasted and would of been cheaper to settle!!!(Tory government own words)
But that's the Tories for you.
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irish_rail
Established Member
I just want to know what the catch is? We kept being told there was no money and only way to get a raise was by giving up conditions. What has changed? The only thing I can think of is the Gov have realised they will definitely be out of power within a year and so this will essentially be funded by Labour going forward. Also strange that Aslef haven't been mentioned. Unless they are planning something hideous like fire and rehire for drivers once all other grades are safe and secure...... maybe I'm being overly pessimistic and suspicious, I certainly hope so.
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