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Class 175 future speculation

Bletchleyite

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They were probably the most comfortable diesel units I've ever travelled on in 50+ years of rail travel in the UK.

From a passenger point of view infinitely superior to "better than nothing".

I think it's fair to say the Coradia UK series were good above the solebar but awful below it. 175s not as bad as 180s but neither great.

The exception being the tiny luggage racks, but that was a thing of the time, 170s are as bad.
 
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Bob Price

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Reality is no one at this moment in time wants them. They would be good for Chiltern, GWR, possibly Scotrail but no takers and the DfT aren't interested in getting them moved on. We have a pro road government so innovation on the rails it not very likely.
 

Dai Corner

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Reality is no one at this moment in time wants them. They would be good for Chiltern, GWR, possibly Scotrail but no takers and the DfT aren't interested in getting them moved on. We have a pro road government so innovation on the rails it not very likely.
Somewhat ironically, they're only available because an anti-road Government decided to splash the cash and replace them even though they have at least another 20 years life.
 

Bob Price

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They were replaced thanks to the Welsh Government weren't they? They were the ones who left the franchise to Kelios Amey who included replacing them all with 197's.
 

Dai Corner

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They were replaced thanks to the Welsh Government weren't they? They were the ones who left the franchise to Kelios Amey who included replacing them all with 197's.
Yes. They're the anti-road Government I was referring to.
 

The Ham

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Yes. They're the anti-road Government I was referring to.

In what way are they anti road?

I suspect what you mean is that they aren't of the mindset "car is king", as you only need to look to the US where their cities are little more than roads and car parks with fairly few buildings to see where that ends up.

Cars are a very inefficient way of getting about and whist they have many advantages there are quite a few problems which come with them.

As such governments and policy makers should be doing what they can to ensure that roads are safe. The best way to achieve that is to ensure that they are safe to use for the most vulnerable of road users (i.e. pedestrians).

The public highway is defined as "a way over which all members of the public have a right to pass and repass", that word ALL is important, as it means that highest authorities and all levels of government who impact on policy can not shirt from their duty to allow any member of public the ability to use the public highway.

For the avoidance of doubt, the word highway in the UK is not the same meaning as the US (which effectively relates to a motorway standard road), as it doesn't even solely relate to where cars can use, nor did it mean that it is even paved. Technically any public right of way could be defined legally as a highway (footways, bridleways, byways, roads, cycle paths, and any other route people have the legal right to use), however the more narrow use of highway maintenance at public expense (publicity adopted roads) are generally what people mean. However, even then roads aren't everything.

For example if you were to park on a grass verge behind the footway (footpaths are route away from roads and pavement design is the design of a paved surface, so whilst common usage would imply a pavement or footpath= footway they are all different things) which is adopted highway and the carriageway had double yellow lines on it you can still get a parking ticket for doing so as the parking restrictions cover the adopted highway, not just the road.

Another thing which is fairly unknown, your title deads can show that you own to the centre of the adopted highway (or all of it if you are the land owner on both sides of it), however that doesn't mean that it's your road. As adopted highway can "overlay" land ownership and where it does it supersedes the rights of ownership. Therefore, if a road is adopted it's entirely possible for you to own it but not be able to do anything with it.

Anyway, ultimately roads should never be there solely for cars, as there goes the ruin of society. The overuse of cars will lead to low density development, meaning that people can not walk to get to where they need to, which means far more land space is required, which means higher taxes to fund the repair of the roads. As not only is there far more paved surface to maintain, but also there will be more vehicles using them causing far more now damage.

There's a view that the reason why the US is having so many issues with their infrastructure maintenance is that suburban areas actually cost too much to maintain for the amount of taxes they generate (it's less of an issue in the UK where houses and gardens are much smaller, so the length of road, sewer and services connections for each extra house is much shorter).

In theory (as long as roads are kept free from excess water and the impact of plants) a road being walked or cycled on could in theory last as close to forever as makes no difference.

Not only would an over use of cars last to higher taxes, it would result in higher costs for owners, as rather than being able to park and visit several shops, you would likely have to drive between shops.

If you're doing that, then public health deteriorates; which increases the tax requirements to keep people alive.

Not only does have significant tax and other financial implications as well as health problems, communities become simply a collection of buildings. As people rarely meet each other locally and so would be unable to form the relationships to allow them to work together for the betterment of where they live.

Ultimately, it's why it's the best thing for society if cats are kept in check (please note I'm not saying we shouldn't have any just not as many as possible or even as many as people would like as they do have some advantages, just that those advantages shouldn't be understood without acknowledging that they have issues).

You'll also note that I've not mentioned the environmental impact of cars, and that's not because they don't have one (even electric cars do, just a slightly smaller one and a slightly different one), but rather because that's easier for people to understand and doesn't really need covering.

Incase anyone isn't aware, my job; Highway Engineer. As such you may have thought that I'd want as many people to drive as possible. No my job is to make the roads I design safe for all users and ensure that we don't end up with significant traffic congestion. The best way to achieve both those goals - have as many people as possible walking, and if that's not viable, cycling and if that's not viable, using public transport and if that's not viable using shared vehicles (car clubs and taxis) and then and only then then considering using there own car.
 
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In what way are they anti road?

I suspect what you mean is that they aren't of the mindset "car is king", as you only need to look to the US where their cities are little more than roads and car parks with fairly few buildings to see where that ends up.

Cars are a very inefficient way of getting about and whist they have many advantages there are quite a few problems which come with them.

As such governments and policy makers should be doing what they can to ensure that roads are safe. The best way to achieve that is to ensure that they are safe to use for the most vulnerable of road users (i.e. pedestrians).

The public highway is defined as "a way over which all members of the public have a right to pass and repass", that word ALL is important, as it means that highest authorities and all levels of government who impact on policy can not shirt from their duty to allow any member of public the ability to use the public highway.

For the avoidance of doubt, the word highway in the UK is not the same meaning as the US (which effectively relates to a motorway standard road), as it doesn't even solely relate to where cars can use, nor did it mean that it is even paved. Technically any public right of way could be defined legally as a highway (footways, bridleways, byways, roads, cycle paths, and any other route people have the legal right to use), however the more narrow use of highway maintenance at public expense (publicity adopted roads) are generally what people mean. However, even then roads aren't everything.

For example if you were to park on a grass verge behind the footway (footpaths are route away from roads and pavement design is the design of a paved surface, so whilst common usage would imply a pavement or footpath= footway they are all different things) which is adopted highway and the carriageway had double yellow lines on it you can still get a parking ticket for doing so as the parking restrictions cover the adopted highway, not just the road.

Another thing which is fairly unknown, your title deads can show that you own to the centre of the adopted highway (or all of it if you are the land owner on both sides of it), however that doesn't mean that it's your road. As adopted highway can "overlay" land ownership and where it does it supersedes the rights of ownership. Therefore, if a road is adopted it's entirely possible for you to own it but not be able to do anything with it.

Anyway, ultimately roads should never be there solely for cars, as there goes the ruin of society. The overuse of cars will lead to low density development, meaning that people can not walk to get to where they need to, which means far more land space is required, which means higher taxes to fund the repair of the roads. As not only is there far more paved surface to maintain, but also there will be more vehicles using them causing far more now damage.

There's a view that the reason why the US is having so many issues with their infrastructure maintenance is that suburban areas actually cost too much to maintain for the amount of taxes they generate (it's less of an issue in the UK where houses and gardens are much smaller, so the length of road, sewer and services connections for each extra house is much shorter).

In theory (as long as roads are kept free from excess water and the impact of plants) a road being walked or cycled on could in theory last as close to forever as makes no difference.

Not only would an over use of cars last to higher taxes, it would result in higher costs for owners, as rather than being able to park and visit several shops, you would likely have to drive between shops.

If you're doing that, then public health deteriorates; which increases the tax requirements to keep people alive.

Not only does have significant tax and other financial implications as well as health problems, communities become simply a collection of buildings. As people rarely meet each other locally and so would be unable to form the relationships to allow them to work together for the betterment of where they live.

Ultimately, it's why it's the best thing for society if cats are kept in check (please note I'm not saying we shouldn't have any just not as many as possible or even as many as people would like as they do have some advantages, just that those advantages shouldn't be understood without acknowledging that they have issues).

You'll also note that I've not mentioned the environmental impact of cars, and that's not because they don't have one (even electric cars do, just a slightly smaller one and a slightly different one), but rather because that's easier for people to understand and doesn't really need covering.

Incase anyone isn't aware, my job; Highway Engineer. As such you may have thought that I'd want as many people to drive as possible. No my job is to make the roads I design safe for all users and ensure that we don't end up with significant traffic congestion. The best way to achieve both those goals - have as many people as possible walking, and if that's not viable, cycling and if that's not viable, using public transport and if that's not viable using shared vehicles (car clubs and taxis) and then and only then then considering using there own car.
This is certainly some speculation about the future of the 175s
 

Topological

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Certainly TfW ruining the 175s and then removing them in favour of 150s promoted roads.

I think other policies do suggest that the Welsh government is anti-road though (including Newport M4, 20mph and the ban on new road building)
 

Lurcheroo

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This is certainly some speculation about the future of the 175s
It certainly is a bit off topic for this thread, but a genuinely great insight.

I think it should serve as a reminder that even though we are pretty much all here as rail-lovers, we shouldn’t become locked into a ‘cars shouldn’t exist’ mentality that I see all too often across this whole forum.
Both types have their place but currently rail is not up to scratch, and the Welsh Gov are actively trying to improve rail services, and subsequently that meant that 175’s had to go.

Certainly TfW ruining the 175s and then removing them in favour of 150s promoted roads.

I think other policies do suggest that the Welsh government is anti-road though (including Newport M4, 20mph and the ban on new road building)
We posted at the same time but, for TFW to improve its services, 175’s had to go.

20mph limit is just making roads safer for pedestrians (the most vulnerable users).
The M4 is hugely busy, so if you could shift some of those users to rail, it would ease congestion and be better for the environment, a win for everyone.
 

Topological

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It certainly is a bit off topic for this thread, but a genuinely great insight.

I think it should serve as a reminder that even though we are pretty much all here as rail-lovers, we shouldn’t become locked into a ‘cars shouldn’t exist’ mentality that I see all too often across this whole forum.
Both types have their place but currently rail is not up to scratch, and the Welsh Gov are actively trying to improve rail services, and subsequently that meant that 175’s had to go.


We posted at the same time but, for TFW to improve its services, 175’s had to go.

20mph limit is just making roads safer for pedestrians (the most vulnerable users).
The M4 is hugely busy, so if you could shift some of those users to rail, it would ease congestion and be better for the environment, a win for everyone.
We will have to agree to disagree.

What are we getting on the Marches that could not have been delivered with 175s plus 197s? Before the Chester issue gets brought up, there were alternatives to base the 197s elsewhere, including using a new depot as a regeneration tool. Wales has sufficient brownfield rail connected sites if the will is there.

If 175s only did Marches services then 3+2 could have been operated with all the same splits as we are promised with 197s. Yes there was a need for more stock, but to say the 175s had to go is only an opinion.

20mph is excellent outside schools, in areas where children are playing etc. The imposed 20mph has been a lot more than that and results in some very strange areas of 20mph. In any case I am not sure it can be argued that 20mph is pro-road.

I agree it would be great if the traffic on the M4 could move to rail. Removing the stupid situation of splitting Marches trains in Cardiff and hence blocking both approaches with terminators would be a nice step to improving rail. We only have that for the vanity project that is the Mk4 so thats a Welsh Government 175 based decision too.

I am open to the demonstration that the 175s had to go, but can only see it can ever be an opinion.
 

Snow1964

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The issues around fires and overheating were largely down to poor maintenance.

Overheating is poor maintenance, or insufficient margin in the design. They might have been designed properly, but sloppy maintenance allowed radiators to become blocked etc. We know it wasn't design error (because if it was would have affected whole fleet)

Fire requires 3 things : Fuel (something to burn), heat, and oxygen. Normal practice is to ensure hot bits do not touch anything that has low ignition point. Normally it is something like split hoses or spilled (and not cleaned up) fluids that cause problems. Both of which are directly result of poor preventative maintenance
 

3RDGEN

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I am open to the demonstration that the 175s had to go, but can only see it can ever be an opinion.
For the original TfW franchise the 197's were quoted at a far cheaper operating cost, "pence per mile", than the 175's with higher reliability also promised. Since the 158's needed replacing it made total sense for the 197's to replace both fleets, that is why the 175's went. Re Chester, your correct a new depot with more capacity would have been a better solution and it's a surprise one wasn't built.

Overheating is poor maintenance, or insufficient margin in the design. They might have been designed properly, but sloppy maintenance allowed radiators to become blocked etc. We know it wasn't design error (because if it was would have affected whole fleet)
Most DMU fleets suffer overheating in summer however the Coradia have significant issues in the high pollen season, the rads look like a duvet has been fitted to them at times, once the high pollen season is over they performed much as any DMU fleet would. The annual overheating issue was more design than maintenance and affected the fleet from build hence why the hydraulic retarder was isolated.
 

Topological

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For the original TfW franchise the 197's were quoted at a far cheaper operating cost, "pence per mile", than the 175's with higher reliability also promised. Since the 158's needed replacing it made total sense for the 197's to replace both fleets, that is why the 175's went. Re Chester, your correct a new depot with more capacity would have been a better solution and it's a surprise one wasn't built.


Most DMU fleets suffer overheating in summer however the Coradia have significant issues in the high pollen season, the rads look like a duvet has been fitted to them at times, once the high pollen season is over they performed much as any DMU fleet would. The annual overheating issue was more design than maintenance and affected the fleet from build hence why the hydraulic retarder was isolated.
Thank you for the explanation. At least a new depot would have also allowed a smoother transition and perhaps we would have seen less of the issues that beset the 175s in their final days.

A pure transfer from 175 to 197 would have really helped TfW image wise. Ideally without the distraction of the Mk4 as well.

That is all notwithstanding the benefits that infrastructure spending would have brought to wherever the new depot was built.

Presumably a further knock on would then be that other operators might look more favourably at taking on the 175s
 

3RDGEN

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Presumably a further knock on would then be that other operators might look more favourably at taking on the 175s
Angel / Alstom have not done themselves any favours really in finding a new home for the fleet given the longstanding issues. Problem is you need money to rectify them and without a long-term contract that spend is not justified so it is a bit chicken and egg really.

As mentioned, numerous times the 175’s could work Chiltern on London – Oxford/Birmingham or GWR on Cardiff – Portsmouth which in turn could lead to a cascade of other units but that would require massive investments on training, route clearance and maintenance facilities. In the current financial climate that is unlikely to happen and the recent reliability issues make it even less likely.

If the new build contracts being discussed are delayed then maybe there is a future as a short-term stopgap.
 

Snow1964

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If the new build contracts being discussed are delayed then maybe there is a future as a short-term stopgap.
I think new build for Chiltern are expected in service in 3-6 years time, and for GWR about 5-8 years time. Neither have been ordered, and in GWR case haven't yet even done In invitation to Tender.

Whether either line can wait that long, or at least muddle on for 2 years until someone else's cast offs become available in interim is big question.
 

Caaardiff

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The original Franchise had the ambitious view that bringing in 4 entirely new fleets to replace the majority of the old fleet was the way forward, both financially and operationally. A new depot was a cost that TFW weren't interested in as they believe Chester and Machynlleth Depots are sufficient to be able to maintain the 77 strong fleet.
What has actually happened is a catalogue of failures along the line, with delayed introductions of 197s, 231s and 756s, poor maintenance of the outgoing 175 fleet, the 230 & 769 debacle, and poor reliability of the mark 4's to name a few.
175's were never part of the deal as they wanted a uniform fleet of 197's for the majority of the network, complimented by mk4's on Manchester services. Also 175's do not work well for train crew in 5 car formations on the Marches due to lack of ASDO.

CAF are now the owner of Chester Depot and no doubt had no interest in maintaining the 175 fleet as part of the deal.
If 175's were to work alongside 197's then CAF would've needed a new Depot, at substantial cost.

The reality of what's happening now is quite different to what the original plans were.

Hindsight is wonderful thing, but you would hope TFW's grand plans will start to fall in to place over the next year.
 

12LDA28C

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I think new build for Chiltern are expected in service in 3-6 years time, and for GWR about 5-8 years time. Neither have been ordered, and in GWR case haven't yet even done In invitation to Tender.

Whether either line can wait that long, or at least muddle on for 2 years until someone else's cast offs become available in interim is big question.

Chiltern's new units are being ordered to replace the 165s. The 175s if transferring to Chiltern would be to replace the LHCS so a totally different proposition.
 

Bevan Price

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It certainly is a bit off topic for this thread, but a genuinely great insight.

I think it should serve as a reminder that even though we are pretty much all here as rail-lovers, we shouldn’t become locked into a ‘cars shouldn’t exist’ mentality that I see all too often across this whole forum.
Both types have their place but currently rail is not up to scratch, and the Welsh Gov are actively trying to improve rail services, and subsequently that meant that 175’s had to go.


We posted at the same time but, for TFW to improve its services, 175’s had to go.

20mph limit is just making roads safer for pedestrians (the most vulnerable users).
The M4 is hugely busy, so if you could shift some of those users to rail, it would ease congestion and be better for the environment, a win for everyone.
But 20 mph is bad news for bus passengers and bus operators. Journeys that are already too slow to get passengers out of cars will become even slower.
And operators will often need more buses to maintain service frequencies - or, more likely, reduce frequencies to save money - but make buses even less attractive for passengers.
 

The Ham

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But 20 mph is bad news for bus passengers and bus operators. Journeys that are already too slow to get passengers out of cars will become even slower.
And operators will often need more buses to maintain service frequencies - or, more likely, reduce frequencies to save money - but make buses even less attractive for passengers.

Indeed, and there's at least a few who think that introducing the 20mph limits before improving public transport wasn't the best way to do it.

However, just because it's not necessarily the best thing to do that don't it was a bad move.
 

Topological

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Indeed, and there's at least a few who think that introducing the 20mph limits before improving public transport wasn't the best way to do it.

However, just because it's not necessarily the best thing to do that don't it was a bad move.
It is all very off topic, but actually resonates well.

Buidling a new depot for 197s would have been an investment led move that a more Keynsian inspired government would have followed (see Labours invest to recover plans at the UK level). That would have allowed 175s for longer, reduced the negative impact on the Marches and hence prevented the clear decline in usage that is felt by regular users on the line.

Building the bus infrastructure first would have been the investment led way to raise public transport usage.

Hopefully, the demand will recover and we won't need to keep paying additional tax in Wales to support the railways. Whilst it is an argument across the network, the recent Welsh budget let a lot of larger priority areas suffer and I cannot see how that was right.

Still, we can trundle around at 20 on roads where the drives are all 30m+ and the carriageway is wide enough for buses in both directions safe in the knowledge that no one at all is actually monitoring speed and compliance is entirely optional. Splendid.

The turkeys of Wales will vote Labour in the next Senned election as well.
 

Lurcheroo

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It is all very off topic, but actually resonates well.

Buidling a new depot for 197s would have been an investment led move that a more Keynsian inspired government would have followed (see Labours invest to recover plans at the UK level). That would have allowed 175s for longer, reduced the negative impact on the Marches and hence prevented the clear decline in usage that is felt by regular users on the line.

Building the bus infrastructure first would have been the investment led way to raise public transport usage.

Hopefully, the demand will recover and we won't need to keep paying additional tax in Wales to support the railways. Whilst it is an argument across the network, the recent Welsh budget let a lot of larger priority areas suffer and I cannot see how that was right.

Still, we can trundle around at 20 on roads where the drives are all 30m+ and the carriageway is wide enough for buses in both directions safe in the knowledge that no one at all is actually monitoring speed and compliance is entirely optional. Splendid.

The turkeys of Wales will vote Labour in the next Senned election as well.
Out of curiosity, who do you think is the better vote, if not labour ?

Are you saying 30 metres (m) or 30 miles (mi) ?
 
Last edited:

Lurcheroo

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Maybe 30 minutes?
Interesting possibility thrown into the mix !
That would still be a straight run of 10 miles of 20mph.
I can’t imagine there are many places of such lengths of 20mph.
I have now driven through many 20 mph zones and regularly do to get to work, at first I thought , wow this is a bit annoying, and now I don’t even notice and just allow my self 5 extra minutes. Hardly seems that’s terrible in my opinion.
 

Topological

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Interesting possibility thrown into the mix !
That would still be a straight run of 10 miles of 20mph.
I can’t imagine there are many places of such lengths of 20mph.
I have now driven through many 20 mph zones and regularly do to get to work, at first I thought , wow this is a bit annoying, and now I don’t even notice and just allow my self 5 extra minutes. Hardly seems that’s terrible in my opinion.
Given I said length of drives, 30 miles would be quite long ;)

My point was that the houses are well set back from the road (which does make a difference to the way that a road is perceived within a built-up area).

Whether the extra time is terrible or not depends on the value of time really. That is very much an individual assessment.

As for who to vote for, depends on your political persuasion really. Not for me to prescribe, but there are other progressive parties out there for those who are so minded. The "They would never win though" attitude just condemns us to the bigger parties doing anything they like. That applies on the other side and at the UK level too.

My politics are not relevant here.
 

The Ham

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My point was that the houses are well set back from the road (which does make a difference to the way that a road is perceived within a built-up area).

Roads in built up areas which have housing with direct access to houses should almost always be treated the same way, almost regardless of how far back the houses are set (there are possibly exceptions - like if the house has a big enough drive that is almost like a side road but there's few built up areas where this would be the case).

Houses aren't the concern, it's pedestrians, so unless they are set back from the roads and have ways to get about without needing to cross the roads, as well as space for other vulnerable road uses to be away from traffic, then those who are likely to cause significant harm should always be looking out for them.

Whilst Brit got by a vehicle at 20mph or 30mph isn't going to make much difference, the chance of being hit at the speed limit is low as often drivers have reacted by the time you are hit. Which is why lower speeds are good, as the speed at impact will be lower.

Even the difference between a starting speed of 32mph and 29mph will likely mean the difference in speed at impact is 4mph or more. Try running into a wall and slowly walking into a wall (please don't actually) and you'll know how such a small change will have a noticeable difference in injuries sustained.

That's before you consider the much lower risk of being hit as you can be closer to the car at lower speeds and they'll still come to a stop before hitting you. A car going at 40mph would still be going at 30mph by the time a car doing 30mph would have stopped (at the extreme end, a car doing 80mph hasn't even reacted, with a 0.7 second reaction time which is hard for police drivers to maintain, by the time the car doing 30 had stopped).

Traveling at 30mph if you took 1 second to react whilst the car next to you took 0.7 seconds to react and was going at 20mph they would have stopped as you started to brake.

To put it another way, if you were going at 20mph and took 1.7 seconds to react you'd still stop sooner than the car next to you traveling at 30mph if they reacted in 0.7 seconds.
 

Lurcheroo

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Given I said length of drives, 30 miles would be quite long ;)

My point was that the houses are well set back from the road (which does make a difference to the way that a road is perceived within a built-up area).

Whether the extra time is terrible or not depends on the value of time really. That is very much an individual assessment.

As for who to vote for, depends on your political persuasion really. Not for me to prescribe, but there are other progressive parties out there for those who are so minded. The "They would never win though" attitude just condemns us to the bigger parties doing anything they like. That applies on the other side and at the UK level too.

My politics are not relevant here.
Ohhh you mean driveways ! Sorry, I totally misunderstood what you were saying there! I guess the houses could be set back but if there’s plenty of foot traffic then it still reduces risk, especially around kids going to and from school.

That’s fair, I was just intrigued as to who you thought could be better. I won’t be voting Labour, or conservative, or libdem.
I agree with you about the “they would never win though” mentality.

Agree, that should be all we need to say about politics here.


Good explanation Ham.
 

Cowley

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It certainly is a bit off topic for this thread, but a genuinely great insight.

It’s completely off topic for this thread and there are other threads to discuss this. This one for for a start:


Even though it’s a speculative thread, the speculation does need to be about class 175s please.

Thanks. :)
 

Rhydgaled

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Honestly it's beyond me why the government isnt pulling their head out of the sand and giving the 175s to GWR or Chiltern or someone else who needs DMUs. Diesel units are in such high demand and then we have these pretty decent (they only sometimes blow themselves up) units just doing nothing in warm storage
Because

they

don't

want

to

spend

money
If it's the UK Government you're talking about, I would suggest that it is they don't want to spend money on rail (or perhaps public transport in general given the suggestion that they might start removing bus lanes and allowing cars in them). Unlike the Welsh Government, the UK Government still appear to be keen to throw billions at making more space for more cars such as their repeated attempts to force through the new A303 Stonehenge tunnel.

I does seem rather odd however that the class 175s are now reported on here as heading to store in Ely, when a few months ago we were being told that TfW couldn't extend the lease anymore since another TOC had signed a lease deal and would want to get started on staff training etc. fairly soon.

The issues around fires and overheating were largely down to poor maintenance.

They were probably the most comfortable diesel units I've ever travelled on in 50+ years of rail travel in the UK.

From a passenger point of view infinitely superior to "better than nothing".
"Comfort" is massively subjective. To me they were ok but nothing special.

I sort of agree about the fires/overheating but that does suggest poor initial design/build that has never properly been addressed.
Pre-COVID, the seats were a little too hard for my taste and the aircon could be much too fierce on winter evenings but the legroom absolutely is something special. Since I am over 6ft tall, that had a significant affect on my overall impression of the units and I considered them to be relatively comfortable units when not overcrowded.

As for the fires; around the time I had most of my 175 trips they were, if I recall correctly, Arriva Trains Wales' most reliable fleet. I am therefore inclined to believe those who suggest that the staff who understood how to maintain them to prevent repeats of the fires that occured in the early days were lost when CAF replaced Alstom as owner/operator (not sure which?) of Chester depot. The lessons of how to keep the 175s running well have been learnt in the past - hopefully they can be taught to a new set of depot staff (or the original staff who already know moved across) at a new depot and the 175s brought back into use before long.

Whilst it is an argument across the network, the recent Welsh budget let a lot of larger priority areas suffer and I cannot see how that was right.
If I've not been misled by what I'm reading, the only Welsh Government department which did not see a real-terms cut was 'Health & Social Services'. The budget increases for 'Education & Welsh Language', 'Economy' and 'Central Service & Administration' were insufficient to cover the cost of inflation.

For the original TfW franchise the 197's were quoted at a far cheaper operating cost, "pence per mile", than the 175's with higher reliability also promised. Since the 158's needed replacing it made total sense for the 197's to replace both fleets, that is why the 175's went. Re Chester, your correct a new depot with more capacity would have been a better solution and it's a surprise one wasn't built.
If I recall correctly, it wasn't a given that the 158s would be replaced and some on here were predicting that a rolling stock 'mass extinction' as happened in Anglia would not happen here in Wales because there wasn't sufficient budget for it. Some of these predictions also suggested that the class 158s would likely stay in place, given the lack of any other DMUs with ETCS and the difficultly of retrofitting cascaded units. One of my many ideas for what might happen was a new fleet of around 30 ETCS-fitted units, primarily for the Cambrian, with the 158s moving onto the Marches to provide 4-car trains in place of 3-car class 175s and with the 175s either going off-lease or moving to provide enhanced services in Pembrokeshire, on the Heart Of Wales Line and possibly (if a way could be found to cycle them through depots) the Conwy Valley.

The one prediction that did turn out to be correct (and it wasn't mine - I feared it but do not recall making any assumptions as to how likely I thought it was) was that the franchise would comply with the UK Government edict on the Castlefield Corridor by introducing stock with a bodyshell optimised for short dwell times for all services through the corridor, rather than committing to a minimum of 5 coaches on every train through there or diverting to Manchester Victoria (both of which would have allowed long-distance stock such as the 175s to remain on services between Manchester and North Wales).

I certainly didn't expect TfW to take on class 170s; with a little bit of hindsight (but ingnoring the fact that EMR have since taken the 170s, which rather ruins the idea) I think the TfW 170s should have been planned to go to Chester (supplementing the 175s) once the 231s had arrived instead of to Pembrokeshire. There, the 170s would have taken over the problematic (Castlefield) Manchester Airport - Chester stoppers (possibly with the addition of a stop at Eccles) and I would have reallocated some 175s to a faster service (fewer intermediate stops) between Bangor/Holyhead and Manchester Victoria (possibly sharing an hourly path through north Wales with the three LHCS Holyhead-Cardiff services each way, which I would have cut back to almost the original 'Gerald' pattern with Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl, Flint, Chester, Wrexham General, Shrewsbury, Hereford* and Newport only).

* this one being removed if the service would be full and standing with the stop but not without it (which would make it exactly the original Gerald pattern except for serving Wrexham instead of Crewe) - otherwise if it is full and standing it should have more mark 4s added to the formation.

the Welsh Gov are actively trying to improve rail services, and subsequently that meant that 175’s had to go.

What are we getting on the Marches that could not have been delivered with 175s plus 197s? Before the Chester issue gets brought up, there were alternatives to base the 197s elsewhere, including using a new depot as a regeneration tool. Wales has sufficient brownfield rail connected sites if the will is there.

If 175s only did Marches services then 3+2 could have been operated with all the same splits as we are promised with 197s. Yes there was a need for more stock, but to say the 175s had to go is only an opinion.

I'm with Topological on this one; there's no way that removing the class 175s is a prerequisite for improving rail services. Indeed, from my point of view (a leisure passenger, not rail staff or a commuter) the class 197s are superior to class 175s in only two respects that I can think of right now:
  1. unit end gangways
  2. bigger overhead luggage racks (but these are no use to short, frail, passengers such as my grandmother)
In the absense of a (very unlikely) 458-style rebuild of the cabs to add gangways, I would mitigate against the first one by moving the 175s off the busiest services (replacing them with mark 4 sets, 158s or new-build bi-mode long-distance units (think 158 with a pantograph, or 397 with the 196 cabs) on the busy runs). You could run a nice, fast, hourly Cardiff-Carmarthen service to try and attract modal shift from the M4 by running it with a 3-car 175 and calling initially at only two intermediate stops (Port Talbot Parkway and Llanelli - I would have added Bridgend too but with only 3 coaches I'm trying to avoid it being full and standing out of Cardiff, ideally pick-up-only restrictions would be enforcable (I doubt they are) in which case Bridgend and Port Talbot would both be pick-up only stops westbound). This is an example of how keeping the 175s would have allowed the Welsh Government to improve rail services (mostly be virtue of having a larger fleet, but also a higher-quality product for Pembrokeshire, Heart Of Wales and Conwy Valley compared to the Sprinters and/or 197s they could otherwise expect).
 

Dan G

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Although confidential meaning I can't really mention the facts at this time, but it is confirmed a TOC has already signed them on, just haven't been publicly announced yet.
From the Scotrail HST thread So (contradicting Clarence Yard) maybe the 175s do have a new home.
 

Philip

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175s for the Liverpool-Norwich route, releasing 170s for Chiltern Railways to replace LHCS and 158s for Northern to replace 155s/156s?
 

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