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First Group: General Discussion

Jordan Adam

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Yet I'm told that the reason from an inside source that FSW haven't repainted anything in Cornwall since early this year because they're waiting for the launch of the new corporate livery as the Commercial Director wants to abolish all the current brands.
That sounds more like a decision by that operating company / division specifically. Scotland (Aberdeen & Glasgow) have done something similar in the past year whereby all route branding is being phased out.

Not saying they won't eventually push one group wide livery, however as things stand there are already multiple variations of the new livery and vehicles are still being repainted in to existing local variations of the Urban livery so on that basis it does appear that each operating company will still have the freedom to decide.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Yet I'm told that the reason from an inside source that FSW haven't repainted anything in Cornwall since early this year because they're waiting for the launch of the new corporate livery as the Commercial Director wants to abolish all the current brands.
I thought it was mentioned that the paintshop was busy doing the Buses of Somerset repaints, as they wanted to get rid of the orange Excel livery.

Some rationalisation of current brands is needed but certain OpCos are still repainting vehicles. Cymru has repainted some into red and First West of England to Badgerline colours
 

richw

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I thought it was mentioned that the paintshop was busy doing the Buses of Somerset repaints, as they wanted to get rid of the orange Excel livery.
It was. The paintshop in Bodmin I’ve been told has now been removed from approved suppliers list by the MD.
 

Goldfish62

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It was. The paintshop in Bodmin I’ve been told has now been removed from approved suppliers list by the MD.
That's exactly what I've heard.

It was around March when the last Cornwall repaints were done and nothing repainted since around this time last year has received any branding. It all looks a complete mess at the moment.
 

farwest

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I hope we don't get another awful First group corporate livery. Everything in Cornwall looks smart and local at the moment.
 

Goldfish62

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I hope we don't get another awful First group corporate livery. Everything in Cornwall looks smart and local at the moment.
Personally I think it's looking down at heel and unprofessional at the moment. Almost every bus in a different livery, many devoid of any identity or irrelevant identities (eg Solent) and all efforts to ensure branded buses are on the correct routes long gone.

Friends of mine who visited a few months ago remarked how scruffy the Tinner E400 MMCs look now and sadly I have to agree.
 

stevenedin

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Personally I think it's looking down at heel and unprofessional at the moment. Almost every bus in a different livery, many devoid of any identity or irrelevant identities (eg Solent) and all efforts to ensure branded buses are on the correct routes long gone.

Friends of mine who visited a few months ago remarked how scruffy the Tinner E400 MMCs look now and sadly I have to agree.
I agree. I think we need consistency. Whether or not that is across the whole group or in each area.
 

Andyh82

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I’m guessing unless anyone has proper concrete evidence is that the new corporate livery that has been rumoured is basically the new electric livery, and even that is optional

York and Norwich don’t really have a current fleet livery just the remnants of old Olympia/Urban so it makes sense they’ve used the purple electric livery, whereas Solent are in the process of rolling out their local livery so it makes sense to use it on the electric buses as well. On a similar note if Bristol got electric buses I’d expect them in purple, whereas if Leeds did I’d expect them in green.

In West Yorkshire repaints have continued as normal focussing particularly on rolling out HD Connect in Huddersfield. They’ve even started repainting the yellow school buses into fleet livery
 

noddingdonkey

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Would be nice if Huddersfield put as much effort into the interiors. Many of the latest batch of cast-offs from Leeds and Bradford have filthy seats and posters up for their previous home.
 

mattb7tl

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Would be nice if Huddersfield put as much effort into the interiors. Many of the latest batch of cast-offs from Leeds and Bradford have filthy seats and posters up for their previous home.
They need some under the hood maintenance as well. It isn't a rarity to see them smoke or even detonate.
Only the best for the third most profitable operation in the whole of West Yorkshire!
 

Goldfish62

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That being said, there's images of the first Kites for First Solent on the Firstbus Enthusiasts Facebook group today showing them in the light blue Solent livery introduced last year, so guessing maybe the electric livery is a template and not standard?
Ah yes, I've just seen said photos. Recognisably the new electric style, but in Solent colours. Looks very good.
 

richw

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Personally I think it's looking down at heel and unprofessional at the moment. Almost every bus in a different livery, many devoid of any identity or irrelevant identities (eg Solent) and all efforts to ensure branded buses are on the correct routes long gone.

Friends of mine who visited a few months ago remarked how scruffy the Tinner E400 MMCs look now and sadly I have to agree.
Since Alex Carter retired it never felt the same. Everything since felt like cost cutting and penny pinching. Alex’s era turned a profit every year i believe.
There didn’t feel like a pride from management, breakdowns were being sticky plastered rather than fixed. i was seeing Cornwall commercials and Boom Rescue on a daily basis. Boom gave me one of their branded wooly hats as a leaving gift he saw me so often!

Penny pinching is so tight now vehicles are being sold without removing the private plates to save the £80 Dvla transfer fee. Resulting in the company losing some historical registrations and others worth over £1000 each. Lose an asset worth £1000 to save £80 is just poor financial sense.
 

ChrisPJ

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Who cares about registration marks though, passengers certainly don't. Maybe the sale price took account of a saleable plate being on the vehicle.
 

Andyh82

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Since Alex Carter retired it never felt the same. Everything since felt like cost cutting and penny pinching. Alex’s era turned a profit every year i believe.
There didn’t feel like a pride from management, breakdowns were being sticky plastered rather than fixed. i was seeing Cornwall commercials and Boom Rescue on a daily basis. Boom gave me one of their branded wooly hats as a leaving gift he saw me so often!

Penny pinching is so tight now vehicles are being sold without removing the private plates to save the £80 Dvla transfer fee. Resulting in the company losing some historical registrations and others worth over £1000 each. Lose an asset worth £1000 to save £80 is just poor financial sense.
I wonder if the result of the Cornwall tender not going their way may have caused some of this

One minute you are well on the way to create a consistent nicely branded network, next minute 75% of the network is taken away and you are running a network that although has many of the main flows now exists in a secondary way, firmly behind the TfC brand.

For someone who introduced a brand like The Tinner and ensured it was everywhere, the buses, the timetables, the bus stop flags etc, it must have been quite demotivating to now be so limited in what they can do
 

co-tr-paul

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Route branding has not worked for Kernow even before TfC. The fleet looks a mess now with no consistency
I know some will say who cares what colour the bus is but it's a poor image when something turns up in one area that is plastered in vinyls for another. And half of them, people don't register because so many vehicles are a hotchpotch of different colours .
Personal choice for Kernow would be paint everything Lizard green with Sunseeker yellow for the open tops. Everyone recognises a TfC bus down here because of the uniform livery.
( Driver of 15 years ).
NBC white anyone? !!
 

GusB

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Please remember that this thread is for discussing group-wide issues and that local matters should discussed in the relevant threads. For Cornwall, etc. the thread is here:
 

Volvodart

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I’ve also been shown a proposed new First logo from a trusted source.
This was the Customer First user group that was asking about "some potential changes they are considering". They never said it was definitely happening and gave some choices like they did with the new seat covers.
 
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Goldfish62

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Just to ask when did the First bus website get updated with its refresh?
A month or two ago.

It's rather disappointing. Just a slightly different look. Out-of-date/incorrect info has simply been transferred across and the format of bus timetables is still awful.
 

MasterSpenny

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the middle of pointless protests
First Group have signposted a plan for an order of up to 1000 batteries for electric buses. It is valued at £100 million.
First Bus has signposted plans for major further deployment of battery-electric vehicles after parent FirstGroup formed a joint venture (JV) with Hitachi ZeroCarbon to purchase up to 1,000 electric bus batteries – valued at £100 million – over three financial years.

The 50/50 JV, NextGen AssetCo, will provide those to First Bus via operating lease over an initial eight-year period, with scope to extend that by two years at zero cost. A FirstGroup spokesperson has confirmed that one battery unit represents one bus. Each party has made a £10 million cash investment in NextGen AssetCo, with the remainder funded by debt.

Some of the vehicles to receive the batteries are already purchased. It is anticipated that the first c.400 of the batteries procured via the JV will be deployed to First Bus in FY2024, the two partners say. The remaining c.600 will follow over the subsequent two financial years.

Under the arrangement, FirstGroup will retain 75% of the residual value of the batteries at the end of their useful lives in buses. It notes that beyond then, “the majority of the battery’s capacity remains” and thus scope for further use in less intensive applications will exist.

Hitachi ZeroCarbon will also provide battery and charging management services for the 1,000 buses to be equipped via the JV. That will ensure efficient energy use and maximise durability, an approach that is key to the potential extension of first life beyond eight years. Terms of the JV include a further commitment of 500 buses beyond FY2026.
FirstGroup notes that it and Hitachi already have a strong relationship in rail, where Hitachi supplies and maintains electric and bi-mode rolling stock from its AT300 family to multiple of the group’s train operating companies. They also have a strategic partnership at First Glasgow’s Caledonia depot.

The JV approach will deliver an expected £20 million saving in FirstGroup capital expenditure in FY2024 and is expected to contribute approximately £3 million to earnings per year by FY2026, before potential operational benefits are considered.

Speaking about the joint venture with Hitachi, FirstGroup CEO Graham Sutherland describes it as “a major strategic partnership for the group as we progress towards our ambitious 2035 decarbonisation target for our bus fleet.”

Mr Sutherland adds that the arrangement will allow electrification of fleets and depots to be made “with increased efficiency and greater visibility of our financial commitment, and unlike other possible arrangements, we will retain much of the residual value of the batteries as they are taken off our buses.”

Terms of the agreement also include an option for FirstGroup to participate via a small minority interest in “future value creation through the deployment of Hitachi ZeroCarbon’s decarbonisation solutions… worldwide,” the group adds.
 

Goldfish62

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First Group have signposted a plan for an order of up to 1000 batteries for electric buses. It is valued at £100 million.
Looks to be a very similar set-up to what Zenobe provides to operators. Basically, lease the batteries from Zenobe, who are responsible for managing and maintaining them for their agreed operational life.
 

overthewater

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A month or two ago.

It's rather disappointing. Just a slightly different look. Out-of-date/incorrect info has simply been transferred across and the format of bus timetables is still awful.

Cheers for that. It did look a lot cleaner but as you say nothing radical.
 

OptareOlympus

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I was expecting the announcement to be the purchase of Bath Bus.

With the closure of Cardiff, Bristol and Windsor tours and the Air Decker livery alignment with First, it looks like RATP are losing interest outside of London. I've not been to Bath for a couple of years but by all account, numbers have dropped significantly on the tours there. Although with prices at £22 for adults and the rebranding away from City Sightseeing, it could be self inflicted. I'd be surprised if First don't absorb Bath Bus into Bath's
operations sooner or later.
 

cnjb8

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I was expecting the announcement to be the purchase of Bath Bus.

With the closure of Cardiff, Bristol and Windsor tours and the Air Decker livery alignment with First, it looks like RATP are losing interest outside of London. I've not been to Bath for a couple of years but by all account, numbers have dropped significantly on the tours there. Although with prices at £22 for adults and the rebranding away from City Sightseeing, it could be self inflicted. I'd be surprised if First don't absorb Bath Bus into Bath's
operations sooner or later.
Aren't the Bristol Airport routes up for tender soon?
 

JD2168

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Is there a new First driver uniform appearing, I keep seeing a number of drivers wearing a Purple Polo Shirt with an F logo on it.
 
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Is there a new First driver uniform appearing, I keep seeing a number of drivers wearing a Purple Polo Shirt with an F logo on it.
Purple polos have been rolled out over the past year - it's new uniform standard
 
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GusB

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Apologies for the brief thread closure; it's easier to move posts around when there's nobody adding to the discussion at the same time!

The York Pullman acquisition has generated much more interest than originally anticipated, so the relevant posts have been moved to a dedicated thread. The link is here:

 

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