First Group: General Discussion

[MasterSpenny]

Why did Fist Group have letters before the fleet number in their London fleet, such as in the below image, it shows ‘DN’ on the bus itself, not my image)

First Capital East • 33564 • SN58CHC • AD Tt • AD E400 • 10.1m • Western Road, Romford

The last days of First Dagenham depot operation in London.

www.flickr.com

First Capital East • 33564 • SN58CHC • AD Tt • AD E400 • 10.1m • Western Road, Romford

The last days of First Dagenham depot operation in London

 

[TheManWho]

Why did Fist Group have letters before the fleet number in their London fleet, such as in the below image, it shows ‘DN’ on the bus itself, not my image)

First Capital East • 33564 • SN58CHC • AD Tt • AD E400 • 10.1m • Western Road, Romford

The last days of First Dagenham depot operation in London.

www.flickr.com

Basically to keep the "tradition" of London vehicles having "class codes," for example "DN" or "VW."

 

[Goldfish62]

Basically to keep the "tradition" of London vehicles having "class codes," for example "DN" or "VW."

Very much influenced by Leon Daniels I believe, who was at First then.

Same reason as some buses at Bracknell kept London blind boxes and roller blinds.

 

[bussnapperwm]

And Bracknell also had class codes at one stage as a prefix for the national Fleet numbers

 

[Goldfish62]

And Bracknell also had class codes at one stage as a prefix for the national Fleet numbers

Yes indeed!

 

[JD2168]

The Firstbus website appears to have been revised, on viewing the Sheffield area site it is a different layout & colour scheme.

 

[ALEMASTER]

The Firstbus website appears to have been revised, on viewing the Sheffield area site it is a different layout & colour scheme.

I noticed that, keeping an eye out for announcement re the 29 October timetable changes!

 

[Snow1964]

An overnight trading update has been released

FirstGroup plc ('FirstGroup' or the 'Group') today provides a post close update on trading for the 27 weeks to 30 September 2023.

First Rail

Demand for the division’s open access operations (Lumo and Hull Trains) has been stronger than anticipated due to increased leisure travel during the summer period. In addition, the final variable fee payments due for the division’s management fee-based contracts for the FY 2023 fiscal year have now been agreed with the Department for Transport (‘DfT’) at a rate ahead of the amounts accrued in the Group’s FY 2023 financial statements. As a result of these factors, the division’s FY 2024 adjusted operating profit is expected to be £12-15m ahead of expectations.

First Bus

Despite ongoing inflationary pressures, the division has traded slightly ahead of expectations during the first six months of FY 2024, due to strong passenger volumes and productivity improvements resulting from the management actions we have taken to transform the business.

In September 2023, First Bus concluded a period of consultation with regards to its two Local Government Pension Funds and will subsequently terminate its participation in these funds on 31 October 2023, with affected employees enrolled into the First Bus Retirement Savings Plan. As a result of the termination, the Group anticipates a c.£2-3m annualised cost saving for the First Bus division, with an estimated saving of c.£1m in FY 2024. The settlement of the pension obligations, to be determined on the termination date, is expected to result in an estimated Group net cash inflow of up to £15m after costs.

Post close trading update

FIRSTGROUP PLC post close Trading update FirstGroup plc ('FirstGroup' or the 'Group')

news.cision.com

Wonder what rail management fee agreed with DfT better than amounts previously accrued is about, clearly getting more than anticipated

 

[Typhoon]

An overnight trading update has been released

Post close trading update

FIRSTGROUP PLC post close Trading update FirstGroup plc ('FirstGroup' or the 'Group')

news.cision.com

My eyes were drawn to

In September 2023, First Bus concluded a period of consultation with regards to its two Local Government Pension Funds and will subsequently terminate its participation in these funds on 31 October 2023, with affected employees enrolled into the First Bus Retirement Savings Plan. As a result of the termination, the Group anticipates a c.£2-3m annualised cost saving for the First Bus division, with an estimated saving of c.£1m in FY 2024. The settlement of the pension obligations, to be determined on the termination date, is expected to result in an estimated Group net cash inflow of up to £15m after costs.

Maybe it is my natural suspicion but I am always concerned about changes to pension arrangements because in my (admittedly limited) experience, they rarely work in an employees favour.

I wouldn't be too keen on something called a 'Retirement Savings Plan' . I've saved for much of my life, The only person I can recall who added to my savings was my aunt, and she died when I was 2! However, my pension - thanks, HMG!

 

[Dai Corner]

My eyes were drawn to

Maybe it is my natural suspicion but I am always concerned about changes to pension arrangements because in my (admittedly limited) experience, they rarely work in an employees favour.

I wouldn't be too keen on something called a 'Retirement Savings Plan' . I've saved for much of my life, The only person I can recall who added to my savings was my aunt, and she died when I was 2! However, my pension - thanks, HMG!

Presumably involvement in the Local Government schemes resulted from former municipal operations being acquired by First or its predecessors. The employees pay in a fixed percentage of their salaries and the employers put in whatever it takes to fund the pre-determined pension. Ultimately it's all backed by the taxpayer. In the 'Retirement Savings Plan' the employees and employers probably put in whatever percentage of salaries is agreed and on retirement the pension is whatever the accumulated fund will buy. This is a bit oversimplified but the key point is that the risk is transferred from the employer to the employee. As you say, it's unlikely to be in the employees' favour. There can't be many people affected though.

(Local Government Pensioner and former pensions company employee here).

 

[Typhoon]

Presumably involvement in the Local Government schemes resulted from former municipal operations being acquired by First or its predecessors. The employees pay in a fixed percentage of their salaries and the employers put in whatever it takes to fund the pre-determined pension. Ultimately it's all backed by the taxpayer. In the 'Retirement Savings Plan' the employees and employers probably put in whatever percentage of salaries is agreed and on retirement the pension is whatever the accumulated fund will buy. This is a bit oversimplified but the key point is that the risk is transferred from the employer to the employee. As you say, it's unlikely to be in the employees' favour. There can't be many people affected though.

(Local Government Pensioner and former pensions company employee here).

Exactly! I prefer certainty. I was on a 'final salary' pension - and, although I didn't know what my final salary would be, I did know what it was at the time and, having some idea of what I would receive, I could decide when to retire. I am all too aware that share prices can go down as well as up, and charges eat into profits. (Part of my reasoning for continuing to work in the public sector when I could probably get a higher wage in the private sector was the pension.)

You might know the answer to this. If someone is part of the scheme, and not yet retired but not working for First, would their pension be transferred as well?

 

[rcro]

Exactly! I prefer certainty. I was on a 'final salary' pension - and, although I didn't know what my final salary would be, I did know what it was at the time and, having some idea of what I would receive, I could decide when to retire. I am all too aware that share prices can go down as well as up, and charges eat into profits. (Part of my reasoning for continuing to work in the public sector when I could probably get a higher wage in the private sector was the pension.)

You might know the answer to this. If someone is part of the scheme, and not yet retired but not working for First, would their pension be transferred as well?

To me it sounds like the defined benefits pensions are being moved out of the LGPS into First’s own DB scheme, where they have more control of investments and required employer contributions. These will most likely be legacy/closed pensions, with everybody’s new personal contributions migrated to defined contribution several years ago.

The gold standard for these pensions is to pay a lump sum for a life insurer to take the responsibility away from employer (a “buy out”). I’m sure First had been working towards this before, recent market movements have been favourable making it more affordable - if there’s enough funding to get a few £m back from restructure then there’s probably enough for a buy-out and this may be the first step towards this.

In summary - should be no impact on employees’ pensions beyond what has been consulted already, and yes it will most likely cover all present and former employees that First is responsible for funding.

 

[Snow1964]

You might know the answer to this. If someone is part of the scheme, and not yet retired but not working for First, would their pension be transferred as well?

This is what is known as a deferred member (someone who has left to work elsewhere, but not yet drawing pension).

Generally the pension trustees would need to get agreement to move scheme, but might do it same time as other pension changes. The new administrator would receive the funding pot for those transferred, and company would still fund any pot value shortfall.

For most people the name of administration team is not something normally worried about, but any shortfall against actuarial valuation of liabilities is worth watching.

 

[Dai Corner]

To me it sounds like the defined benefits pensions are being moved out of the LGPS into First’s own DB scheme, where they have more control of investments and required employer contributions. These will most likely be legacy/closed pensions, with everybody’s new personal contributions migrated to defined contribution several years ago.

The gold standard for these pensions is to pay a lump sum for a life insurer to take the responsibility away from employer (a “buy out”). I’m sure First had been working towards this before, recent market movements have been favourable making it more affordable - if there’s enough funding to get a few £m back from restructure then there’s probably enough for a buy-out and this may be the first step towards this.

In summary - should be no impact on employees’ pensions beyond what has been consulted already, and yes it will most likely cover all present and former employees that First is responsible for funding.

I didn't realise First still had a DB scheme so my last post might have been a bit wide of the mark.

I know a lot about buy-outs as I spent several years quoting for and administering them in a previous life. They're attractive to employers as they get rid of an unknown future liability.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Have First Group as a whole stepped away from ordering diesel buses?

 

[mattb7tl]

Have First Group as a whole stepped away from ordering diesel buses?

Yes, exceptions being contracts or anything along those lines

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Have First Group as a whole stepped away from ordering diesel buses?

FirstGroup named as one of the world’s cleanest 200 companies

FirstGroup plc, a leading

www.firstgroupplc.com

FirstGroup named as one of the world’s cleanest 200 companies
27 Feb 2023

FirstGroup plc, a leading private sector provider of public transport, has been recognised with a place in the 2023 Clean200 report, one of only six UK companies to be included. FirstGroup is the only passenger transport operator based in Europe to be listed in this year’s report, making the list for the fourth year in succession.

The annual Clean200 report is produced by sustainable business media group Corporate Knights in partnership with U.S. not-for-profit organisation, As You Sow. The report ranks the world’s largest publicly listed companies by their total clean energy revenues from products and services that provide solutions for the planet and a cleaner future. Companies included on the list are involved in the provision of infrastructure and services needed to transition to a clean and green economy.

FirstGroup’s bus and rail services play a vital role in combating climate change and improving air quality. First Bus no longer purchases new diesel buses and is committed to achieving a zero-emission bus fleet by 2035. As part of this commitment, and with the help from the Government’s Zero Emission Bus Regional Area (ZEBRA) funding, in 2022 First Bus placed one of the UK’s largest ever electric vehicle orders with UK manufacturer Wrightbus, securing a further 193 electric buses to be allocated between different cities across the UK.

Great Western Railway continues with its fast-charging battery trial, as part of First Rail’s commitment to support the UK Government’s goal to remove all diesel-only traction from the network by 2040. Lumo, FirstGroup’s all electric service between London and Edinburgh, carried more than one million passengers in its first year, helping to deliver successful modal shift with more people choosing rail over air travel between the two capital cities for the first time.

Commenting, FirstGroup Chief Executive Officer, Graham Sutherland, said; “FirstGroup is committed to accelerating the transition to a zero-carbon world to help address the challenges of climate change. We’re pleased that our activities are recognised through our inclusion in this year’s Clean200 list. As a leading provider of bus and rail transport, we have a key role to play in creating a cleaner, greener and more sustainable future.”

 

[Goldfish62]

Have First Group as a whole stepped away from ordering diesel buses?

They stated that they'd not be ordering any more diesel buses after 2022, although that's proven to not be completely true and probably shouldn't have been stated in such black and white terms.

 

[MasterSpenny]

They stated that they'd not be ordering any more diesel buses after 2022, although that's proven to not be completely true and probably shouldn't have been stated in such black and white terms.

I bet that will age well and a tendered service gets specified for new diesel buses…

 

[richw]

I bet that will age well and a tendered service gets specified for new diesel buses…

Hence why the full statement has an exceptions list that included one of the exceptions as specific vehicles required for contracts.

 

[Goldfish62]

Hence why the full statement has an exceptions list that included one of the exceptions as specific vehicles required for contracts.

That's interesting. None of the press statements I've seen include that list of exceptions. Do you have a link to it?

 

[co-tr-paul]

Anyone have any news on the new corporate livery yet ?

 

[buslad1988]

Anyone have any news on the new corporate livery yet ?

Well we know (albeit unofficially) that the Electric livery is now standard nationally. Not sure they’ll bother with a secondary livery? Also by the time the entire fleet has gone electric the current incarnation would have been superseded.

It’s like with low floor/hybrid introduction - special liveries and branding then once it becomes the norm liveries will move on.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Anyone have any news on the new corporate livery yet ?

I believe the new livery is a lot like the livery of the Kites in York, given the Norwich batch of Electroliners wear this as well

First Norwich Electric bus at Castle Meadow just now. First one I have seen, only just being delivered?

 

[richw]

That's interesting. None of the press statements I've seen include that list of exceptions. Do you have a link to it?

I haven’t, but from memory it included things like coaches, leased vehicles and specific contract requirements and a few others. The loophole they’re mostly using to acquire diesel is the second hand market and lease vehicles.

 

[Goldfish62]

I haven’t, but from memory it included things like coaches, leased vehicles and specific contract requirements and a few others. The loophole they’re mostly using to acquire diesel is the second hand market and lease vehicles.

Thanks.

 

[co-tr-paul]

I believe the new livery is a lot like the livery of the Kites in York, given the Norwich batch of Electroliners wear this as well

Thanks all. Did a quick check on Flickr and came across a tiktok on the interior.....comfy seat cushions FINALLY !

 

[90sWereBetter]

Well we know (albeit unofficially) that the Electric livery is now standard nationally. Not sure they’ll bother with a secondary livery? Also by the time the entire fleet has gone electric the current incarnation would have been superseded.

It’s like with low floor/hybrid introduction - special liveries and branding then once it becomes the norm liveries will move on.

That being said, there's images of the first Kites for First Solent on the Firstbus Enthusiasts Facebook group today showing them in the light blue Solent livery introduced last year, so guessing maybe the electric livery is a template and not standard?

In addition, it looks like local livery repaints have resumed at Essex (a couple of E200MMCs in Shuttles red for Chelmsford, and a 58-reg E400 for Basildon in Essex Green), and Berkshire (the first of the ex-Southampton Streetlites has been outshopped in Beeline livery). In places like Aberdeen, Glasgow and South Wales the local repaints were never paused.

 

[Jordan Adam]

That being said, there's images of the first Kites for First Solent on the Firstbus Enthusiasts Facebook group today showing them in the light blue Solent livery introduced last year, so guessing maybe the electric livery is a template and not standard?

In addition, it looks like local livery repaints have resumed at Essex (a couple of E200MMCs in Shuttles red for Chelmsford, and a 58-reg E400 for Basildon in Essex Green), and Berkshire (the first of the ex-Southampton Streetlites has been outshopped in Beeline livery). In places like Aberdeen, Glasgow and South Wales the local repaints were never paused.

I would assume the status quo will remain as it is at present, whereby there is a standard livery design (currently Urban). However, individual operating companies have the power to choose local liveries if they desire, hence why there have already been some variations of the new livery.

If I'm not mistaken the new livery/template is only to be applied to electric buses.

 

[Goldfish62]

I would assume the status quo will remain as it is at present, whereby there is a standard livery design (currently Urban). However, individual operating companies have the power to choose local liveries if they desire, hence why there have already been some variations of the new livery.

If I'm not mistaken the new livery/template is only to be applied to electric buses.

Yet I'm told that the reason from an inside source that FSW haven't repainted anything in Cornwall since early this year because they're waiting for the launch of the new corporate livery as the Commercial Director wants to abolish all the current brands.