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Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

The Ham

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A single petrol station has at least two pumps, most have four or six. When you queye behind another car in the petrol station, they will be gone in 5 mins or less. Waiting for an EV to charge, plus charging yours and you've wasted an hour doing nothing.
Google images and pretty much every publication and car dealer cites not being able to shift their EV stock. People don't want them. Lots of people who rent houses won't pay to install charging ports on their drive and same for people who rent or own properties in terraced streets.

Most (about 65%) of homes have off street parking, therefore there's the potential for a lot of cars to not need to use a public charging point for 95% (or more) of their miles.

Add to that, the fact that petrol cars are still very much in the majority of fuel type vehicles on the UK roads and it's not really a problem that the number of public chargers is only just around the same number as petrol stations in the UK.
 
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Snow1964

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Charging points are rising and petrol stations closing. Fueling will become much more of an issue for ICE
It's now about 8350 petrol stations in UK, down from over 50,000 in 1950s.

But the number of pumps are similar, back in the 1950s many small petrol stations only had 2 pumps, now it's rare to find one with less than 8 pumps, and some sites have 12 or more pumps.
 

Class 317

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There currently about 1 million EV's on the road with 92k charger connectors on 62k public chargers. That's one public charger connector for every 11 EV's. At the moment charger numbers are growing faster than the numbers of EV's so that figure will drop this year.
 

The Ham

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There currently about 1 million EV's on the road with 92k charger connectors on 62k public chargers. That's one public charger connector for every 11 EV's. At the moment charger numbers are growing faster than the numbers of EV's so that figure will drop this year.

Even that sort of number (1:11), is probably still about right, as (assuming an equal distribution of off street parking properties to non) there's about 2:7 charger connections to EV's without off street parking. The reality is likely to be that it's more likely to be those with off street parking are going to have EV's at this stage of the cycle.

As the number of connections increases that ratio is likely to fall. However for a lot of people they are likely to only need to change twice a week, so a 2:7 ratio is potentially about right (especially if you can get to that sort of level for on street in a given area).
 

Class 317

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Even that sort of number (1:11), is probably still about right, as (assuming an equal distribution of off street parking properties to non) there's about 2:7 charger connections to EV's without off street parking. The reality is likely to be that it's more likely to be those with off street parking are going to have EV's at this stage of the cycle.

As the number of connections increases that ratio is likely to fall. However for a lot of people they are likely to only need to change twice a week, so a 2:7 ratio is potentially about right (especially if you can get to that sort of level for on street in a given area).
The average driving distance per day is 18 miles meaning on average an EV will need to be charged is between once a week or once every 10 days depending on model.
 

trebor79

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Most (about 65%) of homes have off street parking, therefore there's the potential for a lot of cars to not need to use a public charging point for 95% (or more) of their miles.
And there are solutions for those who don't have off street parking. Lamp post chargers, there's a company that embeds sockets in the pavement which a special lance plugs into.
I also would not be surprised to see a "gig economy" style service where someone picks up your car in the middle of the night, takes it to a local charge point and then drops it back off ready for you. Easy to do with eg Tesla and others that don't need a physical key.
 

Bletchleyite

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And there are solutions for those who don't have off street parking. Lamp post chargers, there's a company that embeds sockets in the pavement which a special lance plugs into.
I also would not be surprised to see a "gig economy" style service where someone picks up your car in the middle of the night, takes it to a local charge point and then drops it back off ready for you. Easy to do with eg Tesla and others that don't need a physical key.

Realistically most people park their car for reasonably long periods in places other than home, predominantly work but also things like supermarkets, gyms, cinemas etc. The only problem with public charging is the extortionate cost which takes away most of the advantage.

Perhaps a price cap would help? Clearly it needs to cost more than the simple cost of the electricity in order to make a profit, but some charges are extortionately expensive. We price cap gas and electricity, why not charging costs?
 

ExRes

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The WLTP range for a Corsa GS is 222 miles. That range is meant to be a consistent number that you can compare between different models of car, rather than the range that you would get in real world driving.

A 6 % drop in charge in 9 miles would give a pro rata range of 150 miles. Its not far off what you would expect.

Thanks for the info @bspahh While I'm well aware that petrol/diesel consumption information is and always has been far from accurate I feel this enormous anomaly with EV ranges is a major reason for people having big doubts about changing over, this WLTP lark seems like a total con, overclaiming by so much really shouldn't be allowed, I'm assuming that each charge gradually reduces the life, and therefore the range, of the battery as well although I hope that's not too quick a process
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks for the info @bspahh While I'm well aware that petrol/diesel consumption information is and always has been far from accurate I feel this enormous anomaly with EV ranges is a major reason for people having big doubts about changing over, this WLTP lark seems like a total con, overclaiming by so much really shouldn't be allowed,

WLTP is just a normalised means of comparing cars. Perhaps it should have had its own units rather than miles to prevent people misinterpreting it?

I'm assuming that each charge gradually reduces the life, and therefore the range, of the battery as well although I hope that's not too quick a process

Car batteries, unlike phones where the primary design pressure is to make something last 2-3 years (typical contract length) and as small, light and silent as possible, are actively cooled and managed, so the reduction, while it exists, is imperceptible until the car is well into "old banger" territory at which point someone who doesn't care will buy it as a runaround for short journeys like they do an old beat up Corsa now.

The car will rust away before the battery is unusable. Yes, there'll be odd exceptions, but there are odd exceptions with ICEs that can cost massively for a brand new engine, e.g. cambelts failing before the specified time.

Don't use old Nissan Leafs for comparison - as the earliest mainstream EV these have major flaws, in particular they don't have active battery temperature management so the capacity loss is much greater. But even so, a 50 mile range is still useful for an urban runaround if you've got off road charging.

I do feel an EV won't suit me yet for my long distance use, but if I didn't live alone (and thus only need one car for everything) I'd be seriously considering an old Leaf as a runaround, probably before going EV on the "big car".
 

Noddy

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Just driven my first ever electric car, a 73 reg 900 mile Corsa GS courtesy car while my car is being serviced, power available went from 54% to 48% in 9 miles, does this sound acceptable? maybe I'm not getting something obvious, can this really equate to the cars range?

Thanks for the info @bspahh While I'm well aware that petrol/diesel consumption information is and always has been far from accurate I feel this enormous anomaly with EV ranges is a major reason for people having big doubts about changing over, this WLTP lark seems like a total con, overclaiming by so much really shouldn't be allowed, I'm assuming that each charge gradually reduces the life, and therefore the range, of the battery as well although I hope that's not too quick a process


It depends on all sorts of factors, but the GOM (guess-o-meter) and battery % aren’t reliable methods for short journeys. I suspect the main issue with your journey (loosing 6% in 9 miles) was that unless the car has been pre-heated/cooled it would typically use a lot of energy on the first few miles to heat/cool the car (and potentially the battery). Once everything is up to temperature the efficiency will normally improve. In my EV I can easily loose a couple of % and some miles just driving out the village if the car isn’t preheated. But on my last journey overall it was claiming 4.7m/kWh over 59 miles which is very good.

Regarding WLTP this also applies to petrol and diesel cars. So when you buy a car which the manufacturer claims does 60mpg (or whatever) that is based on the WLTP cycle and like with EVs the quoted figures are very unlikely to be achievable in the real world. This should be taken into consideration when you hear folk quoting figures for how much it cost to fuel/run their cars.
 

pokemonsuper9

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I also would not be surprised to see a "gig economy" style service where someone picks up your car in the middle of the night, takes it to a local charge point and then drops it back off ready for you. Easy to do with eg Tesla and others that don't need a physical key.
Surely for a Tesla the car would drive itself to charge? (whenever complete autonomy is allowed, which may be a while)
 

GusB

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That's because
a) they are better in almost every respect (petrol heads who love the fart of an annoyingly loud exhaust aside)
b) the downsides are not big. And are outweighed by some margin by the upsides.
In my (EVangelist) opinion as exclusively an EV user since 2017. I speak from actual personal experience, not hearsay.
Responding to your point "a", it would appear that Hyundai has this option covered. The Fully Charged Show has just done a review of the Ioniq N which comes complete with petrolhead-pleasing noises and a flappy-paddle "gearbox".

Link to video is here:
 

Ken H

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Responding to your point "a", it would appear that Hyundai has this option covered. The Fully Charged Show has just done a review of the Ioniq N which comes complete with petrolhead-pleasing noises and a flappy-paddle "gearbox".

Link to video is here:
having EV's make a noise is something thats needed. I was walking through a car park the other day and an EV nearly reversed over me. There was no sound from the car so I was unaware it was about to move. And the driver clearly wasnt paying attention.
What noise should they make?
 

Energy

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having EV's make a noise is something thats needed. I was walking through a car park the other day and an EV nearly reversed over me. There was no sound from the car so I was unaware it was about to move. And the driver clearly wasnt paying attention.
What noise should they make?
Most already make a noise at low speed.
 

Harpers Tate

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Correct. I think it may be a legal requiremenmt they are so fitted - although in some (at least) it can be turned off (once per "engine start"). It's only necessary and only works under around 15mph; above this speed, the tyre/road noise is the same as a normal* small petrol car (by which I mean, not something that is intentionally, or modified so as to be, irrationally noisy).
 

trebor79

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Legal requirement to be fitted and not able to be turned off by the driver since sometime in 2022 I think. But of course anything before that which doesn't make a noise is grandfathered.
 

paul1609

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The WLTP range for a Corsa GS is 222 miles. That range is meant to be a consistent number that you can compare between different models of car, rather than the range that you would get in real world driving.

A 6 % drop in charge in 9 miles would give a pro rata range of 150 miles. Its not far off what you would expect.
The WLTP range is in my opinion one of the major short comings of EVs.
You are only really going to be interested in range in the context of long journeys.
In the UK that envariably means a motorway journey in mixed traffic at a maximum speed of 70 mph.
The ambient temperature will be on average around 13 degrees.
In this context the WLTP range is hopelessly optimistic in realterms you need to take a ballpark figure of 30% off the WTLP for a UK motorway journey.
Its okay having a theoretical figure to compare different makes of EV but why cant you have a comparison figure based on a realistic journey?
 

bspahh

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The WLTP range is in my opinion one of the major short comings of EVs.
You are only really going to be interested in range in the context of long journeys.
In the UK that envariably means a motorway journey in mixed traffic at a maximum speed of 70 mph.
The ambient temperature will be on average around 13 degrees.
In this context the WLTP range is hopelessly optimistic in realterms you need to take a ballpark figure of 30% off the WTLP for a UK motorway journey.
Its okay having a theoretical figure to compare different makes of EV but why cant you have a comparison figure based on a realistic journey?
The W in WLTP is "World". Its not focussed on UK conditions.

Its meant to be a score so that different countries can compare CO2 emissions.

For real world fuel consumption for petrol and diesel cars, there is https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/
What is Real MPG?
Real MPG was created after we received thousands of complaints from readers that their cars could not match the official claimed fuel economy figures.

Unlike laboratory tests, Real MPG gives real world data from real drivers and allows owners and buyers to see how much on-the-road fuel a vehicle really uses.


For electric vehicles, WhatCar has some stats: https://www.whatcar.com/news/ev-real-ranges-revealed/n26093
Real Range: which electric car can go farthest in the real world?
Range anxiety still stops many people from going electric, so we test how far EVs can really go between charges. Here we reveal the best and worst performers...
 

Deafdoggie

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I think range anxiety is much more a perceived problem than an actual one. I've driven to Inverness (and stayed in remote Scotland) and I've driven to Penzance (and stayed in rural Cornwall) and never once had range anxiety. It's very much a perceived issue.
Obviously it did used to be an issue, but those days are long gone. Even if you're in the middle of nowhere, there are chargers well within the range of the car.
 

Bletchleyite

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Its okay having a theoretical figure to compare different makes of EV but why cant you have a comparison figure based on a realistic journey?

Because it's a normalised comparison figure between EVs. It's not a statement that you'll get that at 80mph on the M40. There isn't one fixed range you'll get, just like petrol, it depends on the likes of traffic conditions.
 

skyhigh

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Legal requirement to be fitted and not able to be turned off by the driver since sometime in 2022 I think. But of course anything before that which doesn't make a noise is grandfathered.
From memory it's been a legal requirement for a noise maker to be installed for years, though only since 2022 mandatory that it can't be turned off.
 

DelW

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From memory it's been a legal requirement for a noise maker to be installed for years, though only since 2022 mandatory that it can't be turned off.
It was still an option when I specc'ed my current car in early 2020. IIRC it cost me around £150.
 

GusB

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I think range anxiety is much more a perceived problem than an actual one. I've driven to Inverness (and stayed in remote Scotland) and I've driven to Penzance (and stayed in rural Cornwall) and never once had range anxiety. It's very much a perceived issue.
Obviously it did used to be an issue, but those days are long gone. Even if you're in the middle of nowhere, there are chargers well within the range of the car.
You're more likely to find a charging point in "remote Scotland" these days than a petrol station. The only time I've ever had range anxiety in my life is when I decided to go on day trip in my (petrol) car and miscalculated how much fuel I'd need to get home. By the time I got to the "shop with pump in the middle of nowhere" it was just on closing time - five minutes later and I'd have been stuck.

Lots of rural villages have charging points these days and people do actually use them; it saves having to drive 20 miles to the nearest town to fill up when your mileage is purely local.
 

cactustwirly

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Realistically most people park their car for reasonably long periods in places other than home, predominantly work but also things like supermarkets, gyms, cinemas etc. The only problem with public charging is the extortionate cost which takes away most of the advantage.

Perhaps a price cap would help? Clearly it needs to cost more than the simple cost of the electricity in order to make a profit, but some charges are extortionately expensive. We price cap gas and electricity, why not charging costs?
This is the problem, it only works if you own your own home and have off street parking.

If you live in a terraced house you have to use public chargers, then it becomes more expensive than a petrol to run.
 

Deafdoggie

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This is the problem, it only works if you own your own home and have off street parking.

If you live in a terraced house you have to use public chargers, then it becomes more expensive than a petrol to run.
Only if you're unemployed or WFH full time. Otherwise, workplace chargers are ideal. Be it on work car parks, or public car parks.
 

Deafdoggie

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I don't know any workplaces that have chargers.
Only big corporate companies do
Don't people work at big corporate companies?
There are loads shown on ZapMap, so it would appear there are some. Plus, of course, ZapMap doesn't show them all
 

Enthusiast

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Don't people work at big corporate companies?
Some people do. Many don't.

Even those who work for large corporate companies will not necessarily have workplace charging. For example, almost everybody in retail (Tesco, Sainsburys, etc.) and hospitality (Wetherspoons, Marstons, Premier Inn etc.) is unlikely to have access to workplace charging (any provided will be for customers). These sectors employ over 5m people. Education (3.5m) is another large sector where workplace charging is unlikely to be available. Schools and colleges are unlikely to provide anything other than a token presence which will probably be reserved for Head Teachers and the like.

It's rather like WFH. Some people can do it, many cannot. I would hazard a guess that a large majority of workers do not have access to workplace charging.
 

Enthusiast

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At present, no. But legislation could be brought forth to require it...
But why should there be? There was no legislation mandating the provision of petrol pumps in workplaces. People seemed to manage well enough without them up to now. Why should employers be compelled to provide charging facilities (even if they could, which many of them couldn't)?
 

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