Expensive tickets

[osborn99]

My nearest station is Chorley.

Chorley to Birmingham off peak return is £44.15. Manchester to Birmingham off peak return is £31. Chorley to Manchester return is £7.60. Why can't they add £7.60 to £31 instead of £44.15. Its worse on other journeys, difference can be £20+. I've just found this out, shame on the website/companies. Another example, when you want an advance ticket from Preston, it comes at a low price but when you search from Chorley the site gives you the full fare. Again why can't the website add the £5.60 to the advance ticket.

People should know buy your tickets to a main station then your destination cos it's a lot cheaper, if using the website.

 

[mumrar]

My nearest station is Chorley.

Chorley to Birmingham off peak return is £44.15. Manchester to Birmingham off peak return is £31. Chorley to Manchester return is £7.60. Why can't they add £7.60 to £31 instead of £44.15. Its worse on other journeys, difference can be £20+. I've just found this out, shame on the website/companies. Another example, when you want an advance ticket from Preston, it comes at a low price but when you search from Chorley the site gives you the full fare. Again why can't the website add the £5.60 to the advance ticket.

People should know buy your tickets to a main station then your destination cos it's a lot cheaper, if using the website.

2004 just rang and said it would like it's information back!

If you just made the distance fares up from the sum of various singles/returns along the way I assure you it would be more expensive. The longer distance returns are valid for a month and overnight journey breaks, day tickets are not - therefore it is cheaper to use less flexible tickets.

For a fairer comparison you should compare the Chorley-Birmingham Off-Peak return with the Manchester-Birmingham Off-Peak return and TWO Chorley-Manchester singles as that has the same validity.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Things will exist like that until the same body sets all the fares (and even then it may continue)

In your example, the Chorley-Manchester fare is set by First Transpennine Express, Manchester-Birmingham is set by Cross Country and Chorley-Birmingham is set by Virgin West Coast.

 

[cuccir]

To put it as simply as possible: there are too many stations, too many ticket types, too many journey demands and too many variables for someone to have written a computer programme that can offer the cheapest fares (though people have tried/are trying!). Until this time, no website will be able to guarantee that it can tell you the cheapest fare: it will only offer the cheapest one that it is programme to be able to find!

 

[Squaddie]

The UK's rail fare structure - like so much about its rail industry - is a mess.

Rail fares should be on a pence-per-kilometre basis (perhaps with a reducing cost per kilometre as the length of journey increases). A return should cost twice as much as a single, and first class 50% more than second class.

 

[Darandio]

A return should cost twice as much as a single

On that logic, scrap returns altogether as two singles are the same price. That would make it even simpler would it not, no need having two types of ticket when one can be issued twice!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My nearest station is Chorley.

People should know buy your tickets to a main station then your destination cos it's a lot cheaper, if using the website.

Not always the case. An Off Peak Day Return from Chorley to Edinburgh is £33.00.

It's the same price (£33.00) from Preston (the nearest main station) to Edinburgh.

:roll: However, if you were to follow your own advice, you would be paying an additional £5.60 for the ticket from Chorley to/from Preston!

 

[LexyBoy]

[...] and first class 50% more than second class.

Whilst I agree with the rest of your points (if such a huge change were practicable, which it wouldn't without massive investment), this is just plucked out of the "mainland Europe's system is better in every way" drawer.

Paying 50% more for first on a Southern service where the only difference is a doily on the seat would be a rip-off, whilst on a FGW HST first class is worth more than 50% more than standard.

It could be the same everywhere, but that would necessitate similar levels of service in first compared to standard everywhere - and whilst on an IC service first is (generally) very luxurious, the premium on commuter routes is for a seat, not for a three course meal.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In 1996, BR were charging 50% more for first class all over the country, it probably applied long before that. Generally speaking it still applies, however some TOCs have increased it to 70% more for first class.

 

[wibble]

Things will exist like that until the same body sets all the fares (and even then it may continue)

In your example, the Chorley-Manchester fare is set by First Transpennine Express, Manchester-Birmingham is set by Cross Country and Chorley-Birmingham is set by Virgin West Coast.

Even under BR's sectorisation, the same issue would've existed, except that the through fare was cheaper than splitting the journey at Manchester.

Chorley - Manchester was set by Regional Railways
Manchester - Birmingam was set by InterCity Cross Country
Chorley - Birmingham was set by InterCity West Coast

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The UK's rail fare structure - like so much about its rail industry - is a mess.

Rail fares should be on a pence-per-kilometre basis (perhaps with a reducing cost per kilometre as the length of journey increases). A return should cost twice as much as a single, and first class 50% more than second class.

It's not perfect, but the rail industry tends to price based on demand. I don't disagree with charging on a pence per km basis but you would have to discount off peak services and add a premium for First Class and/or HighSpeed services.

 

[tony_mac]

and, welcome to the forum, and thanks for the information!

That is exactly the sort of thing it is frequently discussed here - how to 'split' tickets to get better value. The savings can be a lot more than £20!

Unfortunately, it does complicate things as restrictions, trains and routes allowed can be quite different - and the train companies won't automatically do it (and actually, aren't allowed to!).

In some places, rather than split at major stations, you will split at the boundary of an area (such as Greater Manchester, London, Network area). In other places, you will split so that it changes the company that prices the journey (often to avoid CrossCountry pricing, particularly at peak-time).

 

[Squaddie]

It's not perfect, but the rail industry tends to price based on demand. I don't disagree with charging on a pence per km basis but you would have to discount off peak services and add a premium for First Class and/or HighSpeed services.

I disagree with discounting off-peak services, because that is pretty much how we got in this mess today. (The current situation is that the last trains of the peak period are empty while the first off-peak trains are full to bursting). Other solutions need to be found to deal with overcrowding.

Of course there would be a premium for first class - in many countries the first class fare is 50% more than the corresponding second-class fare for the journey, which I think is a reasonable premium. And introducing a supplement for high speed trains, and possibly a lower supplement for intercity trains compared with stopping services, would offer passengers the choice of price vs. journey time.

All this is, of course, just wishful thinking; it will never happen in the UK. Which is why I shall continue to refuse to pay the walk-up fares demanded in the UK and use my car, while travelling almost exclusively by train in Switzerland and the rest of Europe.

 

[island]

I disagree with discounting off-peak services, because that is pretty much how we got in this mess today. (The current situation is that the last trains of the peak period are empty while the first off-peak trains are full to bursting). Other solutions need to be found to deal with overcrowding.

This. I guarantee you that this evening at Euston the 1840 to Manchester Piccadilly will be half-empty and the 1900 will be absolutely rammed.

 

[SS4]

This. I guarantee you that this evening at Euston the 1840 to Manchester Piccadilly will be half-empty and the 1900 will be absolutely rammed.

If there was a flat fare all day then surely there'd be adequate reason to abolish peak and off peak though?

I believe, that whilst complicated, our system is not too bad overall. Advances and (super) off peaks ensure that there is more patronage on trains outside the peak times which keeps the anytime cost down (off peak revenue can be used to subsidise anytime fares as well as vice versa)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This. I guarantee you that this evening at Euston the 1840 to Manchester Piccadilly will be half-empty and the 1900 will be absolutely rammed.

Agreed. Big difference in the walk up fare for the 1840 EUS-MAN service of £139.50 (Anytime Single) and £69.00 (Off Peak Single) for the 1900 EUS-MAN service, so worth waiting the extra 20 minutes - if you can get a seat (!)

 

[island]

Agreed. Big difference in the walk up fare for the 1840 EUS-MAN service of £139.50 (Anytime Single) and £69.00 (Off Peak Single) for the 1900 EUS-MAN service, so worth waiting the extra 20 minutes - if you can get a seat (!)

Not to mention that the return fare is even more stark at £279 vs £70!

 

[yorkie]

Firstly, to discuss distance based pricing use this alternative thread (which is a combination of posts made in this thread and another thread about this specific issue).

At present we use market based pricing.

Regarding the cost of longer distance journeys sometimes being priced greater than the sum of their parts, there are numerous reasons for this.

Firstly, for shorter distance journeys the car (or even the bus) may be more viable, therefore TOCs are less keen to price these people out of the market.

For some reason TOCs think that certain longer distance flows have a captive market that is prepared to pay a lot more than the shorter flows. Perhaps because it's too far for many people to drive? I don't know.

There are also issues with who sets the fare, as HHF says. Some companies are cheaper than others! Some have better T&Cs, and some do not have particular ticket types.

There is also the issue of comparing combinations of Day returns with period returns, as mumrar identifies. It's not really a fair comparison, but the question "why doesn't a Day return for a longer journey?" is certainly valid.

There are other reasons too.

Privatisation may not have introduced all the current anomalies, but it is certainly responsible for the majority and it's getting worse all the time.

 

[Zoe]

For some reason TOCs think that certain longer distance flows have a captive market that is prepared to pay a lot more than the shorter flows. Perhaps because it's too far for many people to drive? I don't know.

Don't forget that long distance travel has never been cheaper if you can book in advance. It's the cost of turning up on the day and getting a ticket for the next train that has increased quite a bit in recent years.