Potential Bidders for the next Greater Western franchise

[Bald Rick]

Top man at Greater Anglia has precisely zero experience of UK rail operation. Along with one or two of the directors.

Just saying....

What was he doing at Northern for all those years then?

 

[WatcherZero]

If Arriva or Renfe are the successful bidders for the FGW franchise what percentage of rail operations in this country will then be in the hands of the state railways of other countries? Am I the only one to think that it's strange that the profits made by British TOCs mostly go to foreign railways? Is our government indirectly funding the national rail networks of France, Belgium and Germany?

As our own government will not be re-nationalising the railways, perhaps one of our continental neighbours would like to do the job instead. After all, making the trains run on time is allegedly a speciality of the Germans, Italians and Spanish.

When the British rail industry has been completely taken over by Deutsche Bahn or whatever, we'll probably look back nostalgically to the days of privatised railways, remembering how every few years the same tired rolling stock was rebranded and repainted, fooling us into thinking the service had improved.

Arriva had a massive share of the continental bus market in the same way National Express dominates the US, thats partly why the Germans bought it so they could hit the ground running with expansion into France.

 

[WestCoast]

Arriva had a massive share of the continental bus market in the same way National Express dominates the US, thats partly why the Germans bought it so they could hit the ground running with expansion into France.

The British-owned Arriva also had a some sort of rail presence in Denmark, Germany, Poland, the Netherlands and Sweden, operating some regional rail franchises along with Open Access operations. I wonder how many people actually knew of these activities?

When DB took them over, Arriva's German rail operations were sold to Trenitalia (or rather FS, the parent group).

 

[jon0844]

First also seems to do well abroad.

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Tapatalk

 

[WestCoast]

First is focused more on North American coaches and school buses (a massive market over there), but they do have a limited rail presence in mainland Europe with their partnership with the Danish State Railways.

 

[jon0844]

They also run the link between Denmark and Sweden (and quite a distance in both countries) but for some reason, which I couldn't figure out why, First were kicked out of the operation in Sweden so it switches to another operator (Veolia?).

It's also a service where First doesn't have its logo/font in the name.

 

[Schnellzug]

They also run the link between Denmark and Sweden (and quite a distance in both countries) but for some reason, which I couldn't figure out why, First were kicked out of the operation in Sweden so it switches to another operator (Veolia?).

It's also a service where First doesn't have its logo/font in the name.

There was various financial issues which were as complex as financial issues usually are; not necessarily any fault of Firsts'. http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/veolia-takes-over-from-troubled-dsbfirst.html

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I believe the elevator call button at Reading sets off an alarm where people can see with CCTV if you really need to use the elevator and then call it for you. If there is a possiblity of fare evasion then while you are waiting they could send staff over to ask for your ticket.

I am certain at Reading in the past the gate between platforms 4a / 4b and the concourse, next to the lift, has been opened. This, in the past when the subway was still open, allowed free access to all platforms. Regardless of whether they check or not, you don't have to call, just wait the lift, or by chance it may be open in front of you when you get there. Further to this, not all fare evaders are alone, those with a pram or walking stick would look like they had good reason to use a lift.

 

[captainbigun]

What was he doing at Northern for all those years then?

Given the changes on the GE you'd have to wonder....

However, I understand the Ops Director is new to the UK.

 

[Bald Rick]

Given the changes on the GE you'd have to wonder....

However, I understand the Ops Director is new to the UK.

Indeed she is. But then we were all new once.

 

[HH]

IIRC Cap and Collar basically means that the TOCs profits and losses are limited. If revenue is less then expected then the government will share the losses, conversely if revenue is higher then expected the government will take a cut of the TOCs profit.

Quite correct for the old franchises. The new ones have a "GDP mechanism". This means that the payment is triggered by GDP being higher or lower than the DfT's forecast, outside a "nil" band. In general it gives less protection to the TOCs than the old arrangement, but it could kick in earlier if there was a severe recession.

 

[cjp]

Not First
As Private Eye will have told you they are giving up their existing FGW franchise early (as they are entitled to under the weak way it was drawn up) to avoid having to give money back to the UK - us taxpayers -now things are running well.

They took the subsidy when it suited them and now do not want to give anything back that will lessen their profits.

Blood Suckers.

The franchise has worked well despite FGW
thanks to the efforts of the the railway staff be they man women or Flamingo.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the franchise is only up for renewal because First walked away from the extension as they had backloaded all the franchise payments so don't have to pay the DfT the £1b or so that would be due with it!

Hear hear

 

[TEW]

It's not First handing it back, the DfT were quite happy for the clause to be in the franchise which allows First to terminate the contract in 2013. It's hardly good times at the moment, the franchise is making much less revenue than forecasted due to the recession. If any other operating group was in the same position they'd exercise the clause. First would lose huge amounts of money by taking it up.

 

[tbtc]

Given the uncertainty over the next few years (with both Crossrail and GWML electrification projects causing disruption/ engineering works/ diversions) its hard to do sums on the profitability (or otherwise) of the GWML franchise in the short/medium term.

In the circumstances, I think any TOC would have taken the easy option and terminated the contract. Bear in mind that the size/scale of these disruptions wasn't known when the terms and conditions of the current GWML franchise was drawn up.

 

[LexyBoy]

They took the subsidy when it suited them and now do not want to give anything back that will lessen their profits.

Blood Suckers.

Please explain why any private company would behave differently. For bonus points please identify which of the other potential bidders would happily sacrifice millions of pounds for the benefit of the treasury.

 

[ainsworth74]

I struggle to see why people are demonising First for using a clause that was written into their contract and was signed both by First and the DfT! If they had used skulduggery to get out of the last few years of their franchise I would agree it's a bad move, but they didn't they simply used a contractual option that was in their favour. What company wouldn't use that out in the same situation? I honestly don't see the issue.

 

[Tiny Tim]

You can't blame Fiirst for following the rules of the franchise. Hopefully the new franchise will be more sensibly drawn up.

 

[Oliver]

Not First
As Private Eye will have told you they are giving up their existing FGW franchise early (as they are entitled to under the weak way it was drawn up) to avoid having to give money back to the UK - us taxpayers -now things are running well.

They took the subsidy when it suited them and now do not want to give anything back that will lessen their profits.

Blood Suckers.

That is one of the silliest postings for quite a while.

I have a subscription to the Eye and I can assure you that "Dr B Ching" is one of its least informative columns. No money is being "given to UK taxpayers" or not. First has a contract with the DfT which includes an option in which First could choose to extend the term. It chose not to do so. It was under no obligation to do so. It has done an OK job with FGW and there is no reason why it shouldn't bid for the new franchise.

 

[Schnellzug]

The irony is that the factor that should be most important (how well they've been able to run the service with the resources available) seems to be least important to the Department of the Government. Doesn't that say more than words ever can?

 

[WatcherZero]

Consultation on Thameside Franchise has now been launched.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2012-08/essex-thameside-franchise-replacement.pdf

 

[charlee]

Something that was brought up by Cornwall Councils rail survey. Was:

Many mentioned the desire for old stations to be brought back into use. These included Grampound Road, Scorrier, Carn Brea and Probus. Some new stations were also suggested, such as Hugus, Denas Water and Trescobeas Road, Falmouth.

A common theme was lamenting the loss of branch lines under Dr. Beeching’s axe; and North Cornwall, in particular, feels isolated as a result; wishing to see rail services brought back to Launceston and Bude. Helston and Perranporth were also mentioned in this respect.

and

There were also requests for faster, more direct services to Plymouth

Wonder how liekly these are?

 

[cjp]

Please explain why any private company would behave differently. For bonus points please identify which of the other potential bidders would happily sacrifice millions of pounds for the benefit of the treasury.

I refer you to my original post when I acknowledge they they could do as they have done

As Private Eye will have told you they are giving up their existing FGW franchise early (as they are entitled to under the weak way it was drawn up) to avoid having to give money back to the UK - us taxpayers -now things are running well.

They took the subsidy when it suited them and now do not want to give anything back that will lessen their profits.

I do not have to like it. It being the way that First negotiated terms with a with weak or naive government agency.
Nor do I have to justify my feelings on their approach to things, to the morality of businesses and financiers who take actions to avoid things that might reduce profits (reduce not eliminate profits) rather than consider the underlying people of the country who are customers.

Such selfish greedy thinking is what is driving this country's approach to many matters be it rail, health service, housebuilding.
Altruism is a dirty word for business, the bottom line is always gain of a sort.:-x

Deep Breath. Rant over this is rail forum.
Apologies.
Just let me just say, again, I rather the franchise not be given to First.

 

[jon0844]

Surely First didn't set the franchise conditions? They simply agreed to abide by them.

 

[Oliver]

Altruism is a dirty word for business, the bottom line is always gain of a sort.:-x

Deep Breath. Rant over this is rail forum.
Apologies.
Just let me just say, again, I rather the franchise not be given to First.

First, and all the other train operators, exist in a franchising framework which has been created and developed by a series of elected governments. Neither you nor I probably voted for all of them, but they were all legally elected.

In my occasional contacts with senior FG staff (not to mention those at the sharp end) I have always been impressed by their commitment to run a good service, but they (like the rest of us) have to live in an imperfect world.

To condemn them for not being "altrustic" misses the point. The question is is which operator will do the best job at a realistic price.

 

[83G/84D]

Something that was brought up by Cornwall Councils rail survey. Was:



and



Wonder how liekly these are?

Judging by the cost of building stations these days or the debacle of rebuilding stations in the case of St Austell I doubt any of these stations will get built.

Realistically these stations are remote from large centres of populations and IF built would have nothing more than a token service along the lines of St Germans or Menheniot.

Ivybridge is under used and was opened quite recently as a Park & Ride for Plymouth albeit possibly at the wrong end of town so what chance Probus? - No chance.

 

[starrymarkb]

First would lose huge amounts of money by taking it up.

First are already losing massive amounts on FGW, not reduced profits, large losses!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I refer you to my original post when I acknowledge they they could do as they have done


I do not have to like it. It being the way that First negotiated terms with a with weak or naive government agency.

Most franchises around that time were let on similar terms, the Franchise Term was 2006-2013 with an optional 3 year extension subject to performance targets being met. First have said "we don't want the extension". The DfT could also have decided to kick First out at that point without compensation (as their contracted term will have expired)

 

[TEW]

Realistically these stations are remote from large centres of populations and IF built would have nothing more than a token service along the lines of St Germans or Menheniot.

St Germans hardly has a token service any more, it has a fair number of London services stopping and is now well used. Menheniot on the other hand is very poorly used, but it is effectively in the middle of nowhere.

 

[charlee]

I do think that restablishing rail to the North Cornwall is important. Its a Large area cut off from the network.

 

[Oliver]

I do think that restablishing rail to the North Cornwall is important. Its a Large area cut off from the network.

It's hard to visualise viable routes. Here are a couple of long-shots:

1. Exeter - Okehampton - Bude.

2. Bodmin PW - Bodmin- Padstow. (Would rather mess up the B&W preserved line).

I won't be holding my breath for either of these to happen.

 

[northwichcat]

Renfe are very much the outsiders on this one - Apart from Spanish High Speed services, Do they offer any local branch services too? Do they offer such a mixed bag of Local, Commuter and High Speed services?

Yes they do more than just high speed rail. They also have excellent punctuality on single track sections.

From Wikipedia:
In January 2006, Renfe Operadora restructured the main business units into four:
1. Dirección General de Servicios Públicos de Cercanías y Media Distancia: responsible for commuter services (Cercanías), medium-distance high-speed rail AVE services and medium-range regional services (Regionales and Media Distancia). However, control of some Cercanías services are transferred to Spain's Autonomous communities.
2. Dirección General de Servicios de Larga Distancia: responsible for long-distance intercity and high-speed rail services (except medium-distance AVE services and Media Distancia, which is managed by the above business unit).
3. Dirección General de Servicios de Mercancías y Logística: responsible for freight services.
4. Dirección General de Fabricación y Mantenimiento: responsible for rolling stock maintenance and manufacture (also known as Integria)