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London Overground to go completly DOO by July 2014

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tbtc

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I'll try not to turn this into anything personal - I've been made redundant in the past (and been under threat of it a few times - with more to come later this year by the sound of things at my work...).

But, as a humble passenger, can anyone back up Bob Crow's claim that "millions of passengers are to be put at risk" / "attacks on safety"? If the 378s work perfectly safely on some lines, why can't they on others?

(he says, trying not to get emotional here)
 
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Darren R

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But, as a humble passenger, can anyone back up Bob Crow's claim that "millions of passengers are to be put at risk" / "attacks on safety"? If the 378s work perfectly safely on some lines, why can't they on others?

Passengers feel safer on a train where there is a visible member of staff walking amongst them though, it's not the safety of the units themselves. I think this is a retrograde step, and is one deeply to be regretted. I no longer live in London, but when I did I used the NLL and WLL frequently - at all times of day and night. I would not be happy to use these lines when they're DOO, especially late at night or early morning, and I think a lot of passengers will feel the same. I'm not saying the trains are safer with guards or not - I have no evidence either way - but often it's the perception that counts.

I get the impression (from a distance, admittedly) that Boris long ago decided that he was going to be the man that broke the transport unions in London. This decision will certainly have been at least okayed by him: it certainly looks a little bit political.
 

bunnahabhain

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Passengers feel safer on a train where there is a visible member of staff walking amongst them though, it's not the safety of the units themselves.
Are you able to provide any proof of this? Interestingly later on in your post we get this...

I'm not saying the trains are safer with guards or not - I have no evidence either way - but often it's the perception that counts.

I get the impression (from a distance, admittedly) that Boris long ago decided that he was going to be the man that broke the transport unions in London. This decision will certainly have been at least okayed by him: it certainly looks a little bit political.
You are correct, this is a TfL decision, not a LOROL decision. It was written into the contract that LOROL operate under that guards could be withdrawn, and TfL have decided to tell LOROL that they will be withdrawing them.
 

ANorthernGuard

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I'll try not to turn this into anything personal - I've been made redundant in the past (and been under threat of it a few times - with more to come later this year by the sound of things at my work...).

But, as a humble passenger, can anyone back up Bob Crow's claim that "millions of passengers are to be put at risk" / "attacks on safety"? If the 378s work perfectly safely on some lines, why can't they on others?

(he says, trying not to get emotional here)

Only time we tell, however Technology cannot replace everything. Yes as a Guard I am sure I will get the usual garbage thrown at me however as I have mentioned before. PTE's don't want DOO, Majority of Passengers don't want DOO, Most Driver don't want DOO. Its only greedy TOC's that do. yes TOC's are a business but they will compromise anything they can get away with to increase profits.
 

bicbasher

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As a South London commuter, I'm used to DOO, been mugged on a Southeastern service and felt intimidated on certain services, but I've never felt safer than on a busy DOO London Overground 378 on the ELL and that's without the Travel Safe officers thanks to the design of the cars.

That's not to say that crime doesn't happen on LO's DOO services, Crimewatch recently showed poor CCTV footage of a passenger having his tablet stolen on a Dalston Junction service at Anerley, but this is rare.
 

Mojo

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You are correct, this is a TfL decision, not a LOROL decision. It was written into the contract that LOROL operate under that guards could be withdrawn, and TfL have decided to tell LOROL that they will be withdrawing them.

Indeed; I think that with the recent cut to TfL's operational budget they'd be hard pushed to keep the current method of working with guards on the Overground when elsewhere (eg. on the Underground) there are going to be further reductions in the coming year or two.
 

bicbasher

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Indeed; I think that with the recent cut to TfL's operational budget they'd be hard pushed to keep the current method of working with guards on the Overground when elsewhere (eg. on the Underground) there are going to be further reductions in the coming year or two.

I don't like speculating on these things, but when LUL had the cuts to ticket office staff, I don't know how long LOROL can keep it viable to have three ticket clerks at Forest Hill in the morning peak and a clerk until 9pm as an example?
 

ModernRailways

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I'm going to come from a passenger perspective but other than on the 172s, I've hardly seen a guard on the 378s at night other than a quick dispatch of the train from the rear set of doors/cab.

I would personally like it to have Travel Safe Officers which seem to swarm the DLR at night. An actual visible presence inside the train and not hiding in the rear cab (I'm not saying you do, but there are some out there) would be better to me. I feel safer when I know there is another member of staff on board, and when there isn't I always sit behind/next the drivers cab.

I do hope you find a job somewhere else or retain your current one! No one deserves to lose a job if they're not doing anything wrong!
 

Darren R

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Are you able to provide any proof of this? Interestingly later on in your post we get this...

Originally Posted by Darren R
Passengers feel safer on a train where there is a visible member of staff walking amongst them though, it's not the safety of the units themselves.

I'm somewhat surprised at being picked up on what seemed an uncontroversial to point to me when I wrote it - talking about passnegers' perception as I was, but if it makes you happier than I'll say this instead:

Unusually this specific passenger feels safer on a train where there is a visible member of staff walking amongst them.

I think we all know that I am far from alone in this though!
 

BestWestern

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Oh dear, very sad news indeed :|

Wikipedia gives the cost of each of the utterly unjustified 'Borismaster' mayoral vanity project buses as £354,500. That's the unit cost of the initial squadron fleet of 600 of the damn things. That's a total cost of quite a lot, and quite a lot more than if that order was for 600 perfectly adequate 'normal' buses of the type which have served the capital perfectly well for the past decade or so. Perhaps Bob Crow could arrange for Mayor Boris to meet with him and explain the various ways in which these new vehicles are of such great benefit to the city of London at a time when budgets are presumably being squeezed sufficiently to put people put of work. In a democratic society, the people are entitled to an explanation of such affairs are they not?

I sincerely hope that LOROL will come up with something sensible for these guys here. That's assuming that the RMT don't manage to sink it; I would tend to agree, sadly, that in this particular case I think that unlikely. I'm sure they'll put up a hell of a good fight though, and it'll be good practise for the inevitable battles to come if nothing else. I've always been deeply sceptical of the benefits of downgrading Guards to other on board roles, as it's often suggested should be the obvious way forward. Ticket examiners are paid a basic rate plus commission, which in our part of the world tends to be about the same total as a Guard takes home. Yes, they sell more to get there, but is the overall saving all that much in the grand scheme of things? Perhaps that is a logical path, if the savings are worthwhile. RPI roles tend to be well paid, as well as involving a good deal of legal training and suchlike beforehand, so not much of a saving there I'd think. I really hope that something comes up here, please keep us posted 313.
 

yorkie

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Passengers feel safer on a train where there is a visible member of staff walking amongst them though,...
I agree. But that has nothing to do with DOO!

Passengers are unlikely to care who operates things like the doors, but they do want staff to be visible on board the train, preferably someone who regularly walks up & down the train (like in Strathclyde, or Southeastern High Speed) rather than just in a back cab (like on SWT inner suburban).
 

Skoodle

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Are LOROL in any financial danger?? If not this decision was bases on pure greed! I thought LOROL had something going for them but now they've shown theyre just like any other TOC.

This won't be LOROL's decision, as a concession it's TfL setting the staffing levels and will be TfL setting the wheels in motion. If TfL want DOO across the board, LOROL will have to do it. Now that the Olympics are out of the way, LOROL will jump through every request and hoop to hold on to the concession.
 

Monty

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I agree. But that has nothing to do with DOO!

Passengers are unlikely to care who operates things like the doors, but they do want staff to be visible on board the train, preferably someone who regularly walks up & down the train (like in Strathclyde, or Southeastern High Speed) rather than just in a back cab (like on SWT inner suburban).

Without trying to detract from the subject too much. We all don't just 'hide in the back' as you may think, do not tar us all with the same brush Yorkie. ;)
 
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Antman

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Oh dear, very sad news indeed :|

Wikipedia gives the cost of each of the utterly unjustified 'Borismaster' mayoral vanity project buses as £354,500. That's the unit cost of the initial squadron fleet of 600 of the damn things. That's a total cost of quite a lot, and quite a lot more than if that order was for 600 perfectly adequate 'normal' buses of the type which have served the capital perfectly well for the past decade or so. Perhaps Bob Crow could arrange for Mayor Boris to meet with him and explain the various ways in which these new vehicles are of such great benefit to the city of London at a time when budgets are presumably being squeezed sufficiently to put people put of work. In a democratic society, the people are entitled to an explanation of such affairs are they not?

I sincerely hope that LOROL will come up with something sensible for these guys here. That's assuming that the RMT don't manage to sink it; I would tend to agree, sadly, that in this particular case I think that unlikely. I'm sure they'll put up a hell of a good fight though, and it'll be good practise for the inevitable battles to come if nothing else. I've always been deeply sceptical of the benefits of downgrading Guards to other on board roles, as it's often suggested should be the obvious way forward. Ticket examiners are paid a basic rate plus commission, which in our part of the world tends to be about the same total as a Guard takes home. Yes, they sell more to get there, but is the overall saving all that much in the grand scheme of things? Perhaps that is a logical path, if the savings are worthwhile. RPI roles tend to be well paid, as well as involving a good deal of legal training and suchlike beforehand, so not much of a saving there I'd think. I really hope that something comes up here, please keep us posted 313.



The new bus is not a 'vanity project' and they have proven very popular on the 24 despite some air con problems, anyway they are a totally seperate issue so why bring them up other than to score cheap political points?

I don't suppose most passengers would even know which trains have guards, as somebody else said travelsafe officers are far more benficial to public safety. I use LO/DLR regularly and very rarely see any anti social behaviour.
 
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edwin_m

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Without trying to detract from the subject too much. We all don't just 'hide in the back' as you may think, do not tar us all with the same brush Yorkie. ;)

I think the point is that with frequent stops and sometimes with door controls only in the cabs, on some services it's not really possible for the guard to walk though the train much.

I agree with other posters that the Strathclyde arrangement would be a good one to adopt more generally, though of course it doesn't save much money. And the more operators provide TVMs and requre purchase of tickets before boarding, the less revenue an on-board conductor will earn for the operator.
 

Monty

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I think the point is that with frequent stops and sometimes with door controls only in the cabs, on some services it's not really possible for the guard to walk though the train much.

Fair comment, however I should point out that SWT's 455s (used on the SWT suburban network) have guards panels installed throughout* the train.

*excluding the ex508 trailers.
 
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moogal

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The new bus is not a 'vanity project'
How so? What makes it so much better than the existing (much cheaper) models?

anyway they are a totally seperate issue so why bring them up other than to score cheap political points?
On one hand people are saying cost savings need to be made due to TfL's budget cuts, on the other hand they're then spending a fortune on an expensive vanity project we don't actually need...
 

jon0844

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I've still not been on one, but if they've got aircon then I think they'll be extremely popular with passengers - especially right now.

Of course, I am sure the cheaper buses could have had aircon installed too!

(Anyway, this has nothing to do with the thread).
 

causton

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I've still not been on one, but if they've got aircon then I think they'll be extremely popular with passengers - especially right now.

Of course, I am sure the cheaper buses could have had aircon installed too!

(Anyway, this has nothing to do with the thread).

All new TfL buses have to have aircon I believe, and the Borismaster's aircon is not as good as you might have hoped!

Anyway...

After spending a week travelling the country on an ALR, I would agree for metro services it would be good for there to be Scottish-style 'ticket examiners' on the train, who would essentially do all the customer service and revenue duties that the guards have to do, but leave the doors to the driver!
 

transmanche

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All new TfL buses have to have aircon I believe, and the Borismaster's aircon is not as good as you might have hoped!!
It seems that 6-8 buses out of 27 are having some teething problems...

But I digress...
 
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How so? What makes it so much better than the existing (much cheaper) models?

Isn't it supposed to be around 15% more fuel efficient than the most efficient competitor currently operating. If the difference in purchase price (excluding development costs) between a New Routemaster and a new standard double decker is only £50k, then the price difference would be made up over the first years of operation.

For instance, if it's £100 to fuel a standard double decker bus per day, then we are looking at around £85 to fuel a new Routemaster. Assuming that each bus is in service 300 days per year, then the fuel cost of running a standard is £30k pa and about £4k less per year to fuel a new Routemaster. So the new Routemaster will pay for the price difference within 13 years, assuming fuel prices remain at their present levels... I think the design lifetime of the bus is around 30+ years?
 

tbtc

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Passengers feel safer on a train where there is a visible member of staff walking amongst them

I'm sure that if you asked the Great British Public they'd say that they feel safer on a bus where there is a second member of staff on board (i.e. a conductor).

But since virtually all of London's buses only have one member of staff (a big change from twenty years ago), has safety been detrimentally affected?

There's always a safety/risk balance to strike, but if DOO 378s work fine on some London services (and DOO works fine on plenty of other busy services in the capital) then I really don't have a problem with DOO (as long as the units are capable of working in this fashion - obviously it'd be impossible on services where the driver cannot work the doors).

Just trying to be objective and not get into an argument about emotions.
 

WelshBluebird

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I'm sure that if you asked the Great British Public they'd say that they feel safer on a bus where there is a second member of staff on board (i.e. a conductor).

But since virtually all of London's buses only have one member of staff (a big change from twenty years ago), has safety been detrimentally affected?

There's always a safety/risk balance to strike, but if DOO 378s work fine on some London services (and DOO works fine on plenty of other busy services in the capital) then I really don't have a problem with DOO (as long as the units are capable of working in this fashion - obviously it'd be impossible on services where the driver cannot work the doors).

Just trying to be objective and not get into an argument about emotions.

I think one very large difference is that if a bus breaks down, then it is usually pretty safe for the passengers to get off the bus. On a railway, that usually is not the case. So I do think there needs to be a second member of staff on board. Now, if that needs to be a guard or not is another question. But I would be very surprised if the cost of a well trained non guard member of staff is much less than a guard (note the well trained part of my description).
 
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TDK

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The RMT are already pledging to fight this move .

Yes indeed, and Bob Crow will most likely advise strike action scuppering the chances of further employment of the staff Yawn :roll:
 

Antman

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I think one very large difference is that if a bus breaks down, then it is usually pretty safe for the passengers to get off the bus. On a railway, that usually is not the case. So I do think there needs to be a second member of staff on board. Now, if that needs to be a guard or not is another question. But I would be very surprised if the cost of a well trained non guard member of staff is much less than a guard (note the well trained part of my description).

But how often do trains breakdown? I'm a regular user but have never been detrained between stations, have I just been fortunate?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How so? What makes it so much better than the existing (much cheaper) models?


On one hand people are saying cost savings need to be made due to TfL's budget cuts, on the other hand they're then spending a fortune on an expensive vanity project we don't actually need...



Well its your opinion that its a vanity project that we don't need, many people think otherwise
 

OxtedL

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I may be alone in this, but I would be very surprised if you would consider detraining everyone off a typical LO train outside a station with just two members of staff...
 

edwin_m

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I think one very large difference is that if a bus breaks down, then it is usually pretty safe for the passengers to get off the bus. On a railway, that usually is not the case. So I do think there needs to be a second member of staff on board. Now, if that needs to be a guard or not is another question. But I would be very surprised if the cost of a well trained non guard member of staff is much less than a guard (note the well trained part of my description).

That's surely an argument for having one member of staff not two.

The second person may be needed if the first one is incapacitated, but the rules for DOO(P) include a means for the signaller to be alerted if the "deadman's handle" is released, and also for the signaller to operate the train's PA via radio.

(or at least they did as first introduced on the Bedpan line - happy to be corrected if they have since changed)
 

Darren R

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Passengers are unlikely to care who operates things like the doors, but they do want staff to be visible on board the train, preferably someone who regularly walks up & down the train (like in Strathclyde, or Southeastern High Speed) rather than just in a back cab (like on SWT inner suburban).

Agreed. I think many (if not most) passengers think guards are ticket inspectors or conductors anyway. But in fairness to the guards facing uncertainty on the NLL, WLL and T&H I've always found them to be highly visible in the carriages. And likewise in SWT-Land too for that matter! (Perhaps I've just been fortunate in which guards have been on my trains over the years!)
 
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