1972 stock replacement date

[Jonah Kemp]

Hi guys, I was wondering how much longer the 72 tube stock has left in service before it gets replaced. Should they do the Bakerloo before the Piccadilly instead due to older trains or not.

 

[JonathanH]

Hi guys, I was wondering how much longer the 72 tube stock has left in service before it gets replaced. Should they do the Bakerloo before the Piccadilly instead due to older trains or not.

There are no replacements funded for the Bakerloo line. Therefore the 72 stock has a number of years yet. They will replace the Piccadilly line stock first, as that is what is currently being built.

 

[bluegoblin7]

How long's a piece of string?

 

[rebmcr]

Should they do the Bakerloo before the Piccadilly instead due to older trains or not.

Replacing a train fleet is a process involving roughly a decade of planning — it's about 8 years too late to think about which line gets the first batch.

 

[Snow1964]

The earliest could potentially see any is probably mid 2027, maybe into 2018, following on from Piccadilly line trains. But none have been authorised yet so could be years later.

Potentially one of the Piccadilly line trains is loaned for testing on Bakerloo, sometime before main batch, but none have been delivered to Piccadilly yet.

 

[trebor79]

Replacing a train fleet is a process involving roughly a decade of planning — it's about 8 years too late to think about which line gets the first batch.

Why does it take so long these days?
Why, fundamentally, does it need to be a decade long process when in the past it took far less time?

 

[mic505]

The earliest could potentially see any is probably mid 2027, maybe into 2018, following on from Piccadilly line trains. But none have been authorised yet so could be years later.

Potentially one of the Piccadilly line trains is loaned for testing on Bakerloo, sometime before main batch, but none have been delivered to Piccadilly yet.

I heard rumours that some of the 1973 stock may cascade to the Bakerloo Line (once the 2024 stock is in traffic) for use as a spares donor to keep the 1972 stock running until replacement.

 

[Snow1964]

Why does it take so long these days?
Why, fundamentally, does it need to be a decade long process when in the past it took far less time?

The new trains are more complicated and draw more power. It is actually relatively quick to order follow on batches of same design (more like 18 months - 3 years depending on factory producation slots). New designs take lot longer.

However there tends not to be any preparation in advance for the infrastructure (upgrading the power supplies, depot configuration and signalling) none of which can be ready in time if train delivery is quick as they tend to be the part that takes nearer 8 years element.

 

[Dstock7080]

I heard rumours that some of the 1973 stock may cascade to the Bakerloo Line (once the 2024 stock is in traffic) for use as a spares donor to keep the 1972 stock running until replacement.

There are few mechanical parts that are common between these two Stock.
Motors, motor alternators, camshaft equipment, bogies, doors, lighting, windows etc are all different.

 

[Nym]

And as has been said a lot, and I mean a lot of times. 1973TS will not fit on the Bakerloo in general service.

 

[Thirteen]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sadiq Khan is counting on a funding deal by the Labour Government so they can order the new Bakerloo Line trains either late this year or early next year. The 1972 stock is becoming increasingly expensive to maintain and there is only so long it can keep going.

 

[Russel]

When you hear that age old saying London gets all the investment and the North gets nothing but cascades, it's strange to think that the 72 stock are, off the top of my head, the oldest stock still running in daily service in the UK...

 

[Egg Centric]

When you hear that age old saying London gets all the investment and the North gets nothing but cascades, it's strange to think that the 72 stock are, off the top of my head, the oldest stock still running in daily service in the UK...

To a lot of Londoners Harrow and Wealdstone is the north

 

[Mikey C]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sadiq Khan is counting on a funding deal by the Labour Government so they can order the new Bakerloo Line trains either late this year or early next year. The 1972 stock is becoming increasingly expensive to maintain and there is only so long it can keep going.

I wouldn't be surprised if the order was place before the next General Election, to get some positive headlines for the Conservatives giving work to the Goole factory.

But not until after the Mayoral election, so Sadiq doesn't get the electoral benefit.

 

[JonathanH]

I wouldn't be surprised if the order was place before the next General Election, to get some positive headlines for the Conservatives giving work to the Goole factory.

How bad would it be to award a contract to the Goole factory at the same time that the debate about Derby is still going on? Whilst it is apparent that TfL is likely to go back to Siemens for the Bakerloo stock, it would be someone rubbing the noses of Derby workers in the sand if it were announced right now.

 

[mic505]

And as has been said a lot, and I mean a lot of times. 1973TS will not fit on the Bakerloo in general service.

I meant use as a spares donor or heavily stripped for parts. I did not mention the 73TS in traffic on the Bakerloo Line because the cars are too short.

 

[Nym]

I meant use as a spares donor or heavily stripped for parts. I did not mention the 73TS in traffic on the Bakerloo Line because the cars are too short.

Nowt from 73TS fits 72TS. Even the push buttons and whatnot are mostly different…

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Whilst it is apparent that TfL is likely to go back to Siemens for the Bakerloo stock

It is a follow on order with an option available to be exercised already present in the contract. Why would they voluntarily go out and design a new train to be brought to market for tender if said cheaper option already exists? The entire point of NTfL was to standardise tube stock and the market was fully aware of this.

 

[JonathanH]

It is a follow on order with an option available to be exercised already present in the contract. Why would they voluntarily go out and design a new train to be brought to market for tender if said cheaper option already exists? The entire point of NTfL was to standardise tube stock and the market was fully aware of this.

I agree with you. However, the upshot is that the announcement of funding for Bakerloo stock doesn't need to be made now, it can wait until the end of 2026.

 

[Thirteen]

The plan for the 2024 stock is Bakerloo, Central and W&C although with CLIP, it does put a spanner in the works for the latter two.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

However, the upshot is that the announcement of funding for Bakerloo stock doesn't need to be made now, it can wait until the end of 2026.

I disagree. If other manufacturers don't get orders, they'll be unhappy with the special treatment Derby is getting

 

[Thirteen]

I disagree. If other manufacturers don't get orders, they'll be unhappy with the special treatment Derby is getting

There are other rolling stock contracts up for grabs such as Southeastern to replace the Networkers for example and the CR4000 replacement on the London Trams which while not a huge order will have interest.

 

[Mikey C]

How bad would it be to award a contract to the Goole factory at the same time that the debate about Derby is still going on? Whilst it is apparent that TfL is likely to go back to Siemens for the Bakerloo stock, it would be someone rubbing the noses of Derby workers in the sand if it were announced right now.

Alstom/Derby aren't competing for tube trains now, having lost the first NTfL order. And Goole with plenty of Underground work removes them as a potential competitor for future "UK assembled" National Rail stock.

Derby has future work on HS2 anyway, it just needs something to tie it over.

 

[Thirteen]

The difficulties of maintaining the 1972 stock is what will likely push forward stock replacement, I think it was mentioned a lot of spares came from the London Transport Museum and if replacement doesn't happen for a while then they'll probably end up cannibalising the stock.

Sadiq Khan did once threaten the Bakerloo Line stock replacement wouldn't happen until the late 2030s or early 2040s but I suspect he did that for political reasons.

 

[Central]

Would’ve thought when 67/72Mk1 stock was scrapped things like motors,MAs,compressors,PCMs and door & brake valves were recovered for a float of spares for 72Mk2 stock.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

A lot of spares can be used in 13+ years.

 

[Nym]

Would’ve thought when 67/72Mk1 stock was scrapped things like motors,MAs,compressors,PCMs and door & brake valves were recovered for a float of spares for 72Mk2 stock.

There was the reign of a COO that did not want to hold any 'unnecessary spares' or keep any 'unnecessary capability' between the scrapping of 1972Mk.1/1967TS and today though.

There also (was) some very good fleet engineers and maintainers who in the last 10 years or so have left the company, with no realistic means of succession or training continuity, so a lot of this knowledge has been lost from "TfL Engineering" and "LUL", some left due to retirement, but the majority of the engineering workforce on the Bakerloo was not particularly old and a lot of these left due to the environment created by senior management.

 

[birchesgreen]

After the Piccadilly is done, and they haven't entered service on there yet so it'll be a few years before they start even if they place the order this year. I suspect 72ts will reach 2030 though maybe not much beyond.

 

[anthony263]

I did read in one magazine that bakerloo line needs to have hew stock before 2029 as the 1972 stock as it stands did nor have permission to run beyond that date

 

[birchesgreen]

I did read in one magazine that bakerloo line needs to have hew stock before 2029 as the 1972 stock as it stands did nor have permission to run beyond that date

Which would mean they'd need to start production and deliveries no later than late 2026, early 2027 perhaps? It would work if they carry on directly after the Piccadilly.