2023 Israel - Hamas war

[ainsworth74]

I certainly will not give them the benefit of the doubt. Support for Hamas in other polls has been on the rise in Gaza and this is mirrored in the West Bank.

Sure, though I can't help but suspect that quite a lot of that growing support is because they're having the ever loving crap bombed out of them. Funnily enough "rally around the flag" is a known phenomenon which tends to positively effect the support people feel for their leadership.

Which isn't to suggest that Israel should have turned the other cheek following the brutal slaughter of 1,200 civilians and the abduction, torture and murder of hundreds more. But equally I don't see how what's happening in Gaza right now to ordinary Palestinians (actual Hamas leaders and fighters can rot as far as I'm concerned) can be justified on the basis that the Government (such as it is/was) was elected in 2006 by a fraction of the current population and equally that polling, of unknown reliability, says that in the midst of a bombardment by Israel that people happen to support that Government more than they did before the bombardment.

Along the lines of what I said to @nw1 it's reductive to just say "Hamas started this war on October 7, the population support Hamas and so they get what's coming to them". This conflict didn't start on October 7, the current fighting is yet another round of a conflict which got its (modern) start in the 1920s. Pretending that if Hamas hadn't have committed the atrocities it did on October 7 that there would be peace in Israel/Palestine is a nonsense. The conflict might not have flared up in the way it has in the last six months and thousands would probably still be alive who are now dead and thousands more would be healthy who are now starving. But the war didn't start on October 7 because Hamas murdered and raped their way through southern Israel it was just yet another orgy of violence and brutality in a conflict which has been ongoing for decades.

 

[Yew]

I certainly will not give them the benefit of the doubt. Support for Hamas in other polls has been on the rise in Gaza and this is mirrored in the West Bank.

Who would have thought that bombing a population would cause them to support those who suggest fighting back?

 

[Russel]

Too late. Iran have been escalating conflicts in the Middle East for years. Time they were made pay a heavy price.

Yes, because what the world needs at this moment in time, is another war, clearly.

 

[oldman]

At the end of the day, it all boils down to whether starting a war is an appropriate response to acts of terrorism.

But who started the war (or, if you like, the new campaign in an ongoing war)? Hamas staged brutal raids targeting civilians, knowing fine well how Israel would respond (with great vengeance and furious anger) and that Palestinian civilians would be in the firing line. Israel took the bait.

Hamas have trapped Israel into a war which they have lost diplomatically and which may not be winnable in military terms. Clever Hamas.

I don't think it is correct to call the October attacks 'acts of terrorism'. They were a military raid by the de facto government of Gaza, using irregular tactics. How you respond to that when your enemy is embedded in a densely-populated area is not obvious. Israel has shown how not to.

 

[Silenos]

The Jews were part of the Levant for thousands of years.

And had not been a state in the Levant for nearly 2000 years.

But as soon as the English all go back to Germany, which their Anglo-Saxon ancestors were part of for thousands of years, and the Americans all hand their land back to the First Nations, who had held that land for thousands of years, I’m sure the Palestinians will consider sitting down and discussing those claims.

Unless of course you are claiming G-d gave the land to the Jews and this outweighs other claims. In which case I’d like to point out that He also gave the whole world to Islam. And also to Christianity, suggesting to me that He is somewhat unreliable.

 

[brad465]

And had not been a state in the Levant for nearly 2000 years.

But as soon as the English all go back to Germany, which their Anglo-Saxon ancestors were part of for thousands of years, and the Americans all hand their land back to the First Nations, who had held that land for thousands of years, I’m sure the Palestinians will consider sitting down and discussing those claims.

Unless of course you are claiming G-d gave the land to the Jews and this outweighs other claims. In which case I’d like to point out that He also gave the whole world to Islam. And also to Christianity, suggesting to me that He is somewhat unreliable.

If we're doing that everyone should go back to East Africa

 

[renegademaster]

IRA are very tame by the standards of armed dissidents worldwide, about the same people died on October 7 as they in the entirety of the Northern Irish conflict (including deaths done by loyalists and the British ). It's not really fair to bring in comparisons to Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine

 

[DustyBin]

IRA are very tame by the standards of armed dissidents worldwide, about the same people died on October 7 as they in the entirety of the Northern Irish conflict (including deaths done by loyalists and the British ). It's not really fair to bring in comparisons to Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine

We've discussed it previously, but the situation isn't analogous in any case.

 

[johnnydoe]

Sure, though I can't help but suspect that quite a lot of that growing support is because they're having the ever loving crap bombed out of them. Funnily enough "rally around the flag" is a known phenomenon which tends to positively effect the support people feel for their leadership.

Which isn't to suggest that Israel should have turned the other cheek following the brutal slaughter of 1,200 civilians and the abduction, torture and murder of hundreds more. But equally I don't see how what's happening in Gaza right now to ordinary Palestinians (actual Hamas leaders and fighters can rot as far as I'm concerned) can be justified on the basis that the Government (such as it is/was) was elected in 2006 by a fraction of the current population and equally that polling, of unknown reliability, says that in the midst of a bombardment by Israel that people happen to support that Government more than they did before the bombardment.

Along the lines of what I said to @nw1 it's reductive to just say "Hamas started this war on October 7, the population support Hamas and so they get what's coming to them". This conflict didn't start on October 7, the current fighting is yet another round of a conflict which got its (modern) start in the 1920s. Pretending that if Hamas hadn't have committed the atrocities it did on October 7 that there would be peace in Israel/Palestine is a nonsense. The conflict might not have flared up in the way it has in the last six months and thousands would probably still be alive who are now dead and thousands more would be healthy who are now starving. But the war didn't start on October 7 because Hamas murdered and raped their way through southern Israel it was just yet another orgy of violence and brutality in a conflict which has been ongoing for decades.

Prior to the attacks in October 70% of Palestinians opposed a two-state solution.

And had not been a state in the Levant for nearly 2000 years.

But as soon as the English all go back to Germany, which their Anglo-Saxon ancestors were part of for thousands of years, and the Americans all hand their land back to the First Nations, who had held that land for thousands of years, I’m sure the Palestinians will consider sitting down and discussing those claims.

Unless of course you are claiming G-d gave the land to the Jews and this outweighs other claims. In which case I’d like to point out that He also gave the whole world to Islam. And also to Christianity, suggesting to me that He is somewhat unreliable.

I'm not claiming anything of the sort. I'm an atheist.

The point of my post was Northern Ireland and Israel are very poor comparisons.

 

[ainsworth74]

Prior to the attacks in October 70% of Palestinians opposed a two-state solution.

Yes and 54% of Israeli Jews were opposed and only 34% in favour prior to October 7.

Support for the two-state solution dropped significantly among Palestinians and Israeli Jews, from 43% in September 2020 to 33% among the Palestinians, and 34% among Israeli Jews. Two-thirds of Palestinians and 53% of Israeli Jews are opposed. Among Israeli Arabs, support remains stable at 60% and opposition at 21%, though this is significantly lower than their support historically, prior to 2020.

Israeli, Palestinian support for two-state solution declines - poll

Both Israeli and Palestinian publics still prefer two states to any other democratic framework for resolving the conflict.

www.jpost.com

I'm unclear on what point you're trying to make here other than because polling says they're opposed to a two-state solution they should continue to be bombed and starved? Which seems a bizarre position to take but I'm hoping that I've just misunderstood.

 

[johnnydoe]

My point is that their support of attacking Israel in October is nothing new. They have been consistent.

 

[ainsworth74]

My point is that their support of attacking Israel in October is nothing new. They have been consistent.

Therefore the Israeli response is fully justified? By that logic Hamas atrocities on October 7 were also justified. After all a majority of Israeli Jews were also opposed to a two state solution.

 

[johnnydoe]

Therefore the Israeli response is fully justified? By that logic Hamas atrocities on October 7 were also justified. After all a majority of Israeli Jews were also opposed to a two state solution.

If your country was being bombarded by rockets flying over your heads for years and years, you mightn't be too trusting of the Palestinians either.

It's not like Palestine hasn't received billions in development aid. Did they spend it on improving conditions in Gaza, did they spend it on building much needed infrastructure? No it was wasted on weapons and tunnels to attack Israel.

 

[ainsworth74]

If your country was being bombarded by rockets flying over your heads for years and years, you mightn't be too trusting of the Palestinians either.

I imagine the feeling is mutual for Palistinians when it comes to trusting the Israelis. At some point though someone is going to have to put some mutual trust out there.

It's not like Palestine hasn't received billions in development aid. Did they spend it on improving conditions in Gaza, did they spend it on building much needed infrastructure? No it was wasted on weapons and tunnels to attack Israel.

It is Hamas of course, you mean, not ordinary Palestinians who are responsible for that misuse of funds (though the providers have questions to answers as to their failure of due diligence in what they're money was buying). The Palestinian people have had no say in the matter since 2006 and I imagine anyone who did suggest that perhaps that money could be better spent soon thought different after a visit from their local Hamas representatives.

Still not seeing how this justifies the current humanitarian crisis inflicted upon them by the Israeli response to Hamas atrocities on October 7. To be honest it rather seems like you just wish blame all Palestinians, young or old, civilian or combatant, for their own suffering with no regard to Israel's role in this? It might make it simpler if you just admitted as much rather than this vague series of seemingly disjointed statements talking around the point.

 

[GusB]

If your country was being bombarded by rockets flying over your heads for years and years, you mightn't be too trusting of the Palestinians either.

It's not like Palestine hasn't received billions in development aid. Did they spend it on improving conditions in Gaza, did they spend it on building much needed infrastructure? No it was wasted on weapons and tunnels to attack Israel.

You're completely ignoring the fact that Palestinians have also suffered for years and years because certain elements of Israeli society refuse to recognise the right of Palestinians to exist in their own homeland and continue to build settlements on land that doesn't belong to them - in defiance of UN resolutions. Add to that the IDF's detentions, killings and generally making daily life miserable for Palestinian people, is it any wonder that they fight back? I'm not condoning actions such as firing rockets, but what do you do when your neighbour is a bully and the whole world stands and watches while they humiliate you?

This is not as one-sided as you're making it out to be. It's all very well saying that Hamas' ideology is to eliminate Israel, but that same ideology is mirrored by the hardliners on the other side of the conflict.

 

[johnnydoe]

You're completely ignoring the fact that Palestinians have also suffered for years and years because certain elements of Israeli society refuse to recognise the right of Palestinians to exist in their own homeland and continue to build settlements on land that doesn't belong to them - in defiance of UN resolutions. Add to that the IDF's detentions, killings and generally making daily life miserable for Palestinian people, is it any wonder that they fight back? I'm not condoning actions such as firing rockets, but what do you do when your neighbour is a bully and the whole world stands and watches while they humiliate you?

This is not as one-sided as you're making it out to be. It's all very well saying that Hamas' ideology is to eliminate Israel, but that same ideology is mirrored by the hardliners on the other side of the conflict.

I'm not ignoring it. There's no black and white delinations in real life. That shouldn't need to be stated.

It's pretty clear that most of Israel's neighbours would prefer if Israel didn't exist and history bears this out. They have always tried to destroy the Jews throughout history.

 

[brad465]

I'm not ignoring it. There's no black and white delinations in real life. That shouldn't need to be stated.

It's pretty clear that most of Israel's neighbours would prefer if Israel didn't exist and history bears this out. They have always tried to destroy the Jews throughout history.

This number is on a downward trajectory though, with quite a few countries normalising relations with Israel in recent decades. Saudi Arabia were close to joining them until Hamas kicked off (the cynical view is the attack was timed in connection to this). Granted some nations are still a million miles away from recognising them, with Iran and its allies being the furthest off, and probably will not recognise them without a radical regime change (during the Iran Shah years relations were friendly with Israel, but that regime's legitimacy was questionable given a coup with US+UK backing enabled it).

 

[Scotrail314209]

Is there a genuine risk of this getting out of hand and becoming an actual third world war? My main concern is China seeing the world being busy trying to de-escalate this conflict, plus Russia’s war in Ukraine as an excuse to try and invade Taiwan.

I definitely think though that cooler heads will probably prevail (and the nuclear deterrant!)

 

[uglymonkey]

I think that Iran has actually done Netanyahu a favour as it takes eyes off Gaza and the international community will support him as Israel is under a valid threat. It also takes off the "heat" he is getting from actions in Gaza from the international community ( and some locally) as well, so I'm sure he is sleeping better than he was a few weeks ago.

 

[yorkie]

If your country was being bombarded by rockets flying over your heads for years and years, you mightn't be too trusting of the Palestinians either.

Are you justifying or condoning stereotyping / racism?

Do you accept that many more Palestinian deaths are occurring than Israeli deaths?

I'm not ignoring it...

But you are not acknowledging it.

There is a huge imbalance of power, and imbalance of deaths, which your posts fail to recognise.

There's no black and white delinations in real life. That shouldn't need to be stated.

It's pretty clear that most of Israel's neighbours would prefer if Israel didn't exist and history bears this out. They have always tried to destroy the Jews throughout history.

Does Palestine 'exist'? What does it mean to 'exist'?

I certainly will not give them the benefit of the doubt. Support for Hamas in other polls has been on the rise in Gaza and this is mirrored in the West Bank.

Do you think that destroying infrastructure and depriving people of basic amenities is going to increase, or decrease, support for extremist elements?

If your land was occupied and you were denied many of the rights and privileges you currently have, you'd just accept it, and not get angry, right?

The citizens of Gaza are far from innocent....

And, by comparison, the citizens of Israel are?

I think that Iran has actually done Netanyahu a favour as it takes eyes off Gaza and the international community will support him as Israel is under a valid threat. It also takes off the "heat" he is getting from actions in Gaza from the international community ( and some locally) as well, so I'm sure he is sleeping better than he was a few weeks ago.

True; perhaps you read the following article, which points this out...

Jeremy Bowen: Iran's attack on Israel offers Netanyahu a lifeline

Gaza is out of the headlines, but the pressure on Israel's PM has changed rather than disappeared.

www.bbc.co.uk

Prime Minister Netanyahu has been presented with new political opportunities. Gaza is out of the headlines, for a day or two at least...

But, it is complicated, and it depends on what happens next.

It should also be remembered that Netanyahu was not popular before it all started kicking off. The war did provide a brief respite for him, but large scale protests against this far-right, dangerous, deranged war criminal are back now:

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/01/middleeast/israel-protests-netanyahu-intl/index.html

The protests appear have brought back to the fore deep societal divisions in Israel papered over by the initial reaction to the events of October 7. The months before the attack saw hundreds of thousands of Israelis participate in repeated demonstrations against reforms proposed by Netanyahu’s government that critics said weakened the country’s judiciary and eroded its systems of checks and balances.

Nor is Iran's leader popular at home either.

In a way, it is in the interests of these appalling leaders to be waging a war in order to promote 'patriotism', however that is a very short term strategy.

 

[eldomtom2]

It should also be remembered that Netanyahu was not popular before it all started kicking off. The war did provide a brief respite for him, but large scale protests against this far-right, dangerous, deranged war criminal are back now:

But the key thing to remember is that most of Netanyahu's unpopularity is due to corruption, the business with the judiciary, and other domestic issues. The protests would be much, much, smaller if those issues were not present but his policy towards the Palestinians did not change.

 

[johnnydoe]

Are you justifying or condoning stereotyping / racism?

What the hell are you talking about? Are you calling me a racist? It's a fact that rockets are constantly being flown into Israel by the Palestinians. It's not racist for stating a fact.

There is a huge imbalance of power, and imbalance of deaths, which your posts fail to recognise.

You'd think they'd avoid stating a war then, wouldn't you.

There is a huge imbalance of power, and imbalance of deaths, which your posts fail to recognise.

Then maybe they shouldn't have started a war, and raped and murdered thousands. Too late now.

Do you think that destroying infrastructure and depriving people of basic amenities is going to increase, or decrease, support for extremist elements?

Yeah, let's just turn the other cheek and let them kill and murder a few more thousand Israelis. Worked well when it came to dealing with Russia.

Does Palestine 'exist'? What does it mean to 'exist'?

It's not a country. No, it doesn't exist as a country.

Do you think that destroying infrastructure and depriving people of basic amenities is going to increase, or decrease, support for extremist elements?

It's a war targetting Hamas. They aren't deliberately targetting civilians despite what the Russian proxies in the UN would have people believe.

And, by comparison, the citizens of Israel are?

Relatively speaking yes. You don't see them going around publically beheading people just for being gay. You don't see them deliberately raping women, then murdering them afterwards and deliberately killing children. Intent is one of the largest components in criminal law.

 

[DustyBin]

Is there a genuine risk of this getting out of hand and becoming an actual third world war? My main concern is China seeing the world being busy trying to de-escalate this conflict, plus Russia’s war in Ukraine as an excuse to try and invade Taiwan.

I definitely think though that cooler heads will probably prevail (and the nuclear deterrant!)

I think this leading to a third world war is very unlikely to be honest. In my opinion the most likely route to global conflict remains a direct NATO-Russia confrontation following the latter’s invasion of Ukraine (which is why we mustn’t take our eye off the ball there). However, the chance of such an escalation is again small, as it stands anyway.

China invading Taiwan is obviously a concern, but would require an enormous build up of forces which would be highly visible. I can’t see how the Chinese could launch a surprise invasion (look at what Russia was up to before they invaded Ukraine, and that was logistically straightforward in theory), and missile strikes would surely only strengthen Taiwanese resolve.

The media will talk up WW3 as they’ve been doing for years, but I’m not unduly concerned.

 

[uglymonkey]

The media also want us to be perpetually worried so that we will "tune in " and "click" for their ratings, above all else.

 

[GusB]

It's not a country. No, it doesn't exist as a country.

Ah, finally the truth emerges. Palestinians have no right to exist in their homeland because it's not a state. That makes Israel's actions okay because the Palestinians have no real right to be there. It's okay to force them from their homes in the West Bank without compensation and it's okay to detain them without trial. It's okay to shoot dead a kid with learning difficulties for the crime of throwing stones from such a distance that they'd never hit their target.

It's a war targetting Hamas. They aren't deliberately targetting civilians despite what the Russian proxies in the UN would have people believe.

It's a war that is designed to punish an entire population for the actions of a minority of extremists. If they weren't deliberately targeting civilians, Gaza wouldn't be in ruins. It's funny how Israel can take out certain individuals by taking out a single building in Syria, but they've got to flatten the whole of Gaza in order to achieve a similar objective.

Relatively speaking yes. You don't see them going around publically beheading people just for being gay. You don't see them deliberately raping women, then murdering them afterwards and deliberately killing children. Intent is one of the largest components in criminal law.

You've conveniently glossed over the fact that Palestinian detainees have also been subjected to similar abuses while in Israeli custody. Your suggestion that the IDF doesn't deliberately kill children is, quite frankly, laughable.

This is not a case of Israeli good, Palestinian bad as you seem to be making out.

 

[yorkie]

What the hell are you talking about?

Ah; I see we have a fundamental problem: a lack of understanding on your part.

You fail to misunderstand the situation, fail to have any understanding of how Palestinians may be feeling, and have fallen for the far-right rhetoric that violence and repression are somehow a solution. I concur with @GusB's anlysis of your posts.

Are you calling me a racist?

I asked if you were condoning or justifying racism.

It's a fact that rockets are constantly being flown into Israel by the Palestinians.

And that's all that's happening?

So, to be clear, more Isrelis are dying than Palestinians, is that what you are saying?

The most important aspect of this war is harm coming to Israelis, is that right?

It's not racist for stating a fact.

Some of the things you have said could be interpreted as either condoning or justifying some of the blatant racism that is occurring. Unfortunately you've not since said anything to provide any reassurances that you are not justfying or condoning such acts/behaviours.

You'd think they'd avoid stating a war then, wouldn't you.

Then maybe they shouldn't have started a war, and raped and murdered thousands. Too late now.

What do you define as a "war" exactly, when do you think it started?

Also do you think it started out of nothing, or was there some sort of catalyst?

As for the thousands who have died, can you confirm roughly how many on each side you think have died so far, in whatever you see as the 'war' period?

If someone read your posts without context, they may assume more Israelis have died; is that the case?

Yeah, let's just turn the other cheek and let them kill and murder a few more thousand Israelis.

Do you think that one side killing more people from the other side is going to make the problem go away?

Worked well when it came to dealing with Russia.

I don't get your comparison with Russia, but that's probably for another thread.

It's not a country. No, it doesn't exist as a country.

Again, we hit the nail on the head here; I refer you to @GusB's response, which I endorse.

It's a war targetting Hamas. They aren't deliberately targetting civilians despite what the Russian proxies in the UN would have people believe.

"Deliberately"? So they are just being careless then?

Roughly how many civilians on each side do you think have died, been left homeless, or left malnurished from this war?

Do you think Israelis are suffering more than Palestinians?

Relatively speaking yes. You don't see them going around publically beheading people just for being gay. You don't see them deliberately raping women, then murdering them afterwards and deliberately killing children. Intent is one of the largest components in criminal law.

So basically it doesn't matter if thousands of people are killed as long as they not beheaded or raped, is that what you are saying?

To be clear, do you justify, condone or endorse the acts of the state of Israel against the Palestinian people?

I suggest you read this response:

Ah, finally the truth emerges. Palestinians have no right to exist in their homeland because it's not a state. That makes Israel's actions okay because the Palestinians have no real right to be there. It's okay to force them from their homes in the West Bank without compensation and it's okay to detain them without trial. It's okay to shoot dead a kid with learning difficulties for the crime of throwing stones from such a distance that they'd never hit their target.

It's a war that is designed to punish an entire population for the actions of a minority of extremists. If they weren't deliberately targeting civilians, Gaza wouldn't be in ruins. It's funny how Israel can take out certain individuals by taking out a single building in Syria, but they've got to flatten the whole of Gaza in order to achieve a similar objective.

You've conveniently glossed over the fact that Palestinian detainees have also been subjected to similar abuses while in Israeli custody. Your suggestion that the IDF doesn't deliberately kill children is, quite frankly, laughable.

This is not a case of Israeli good, Palestinian bad as you seem to be making out.

@johnnydoe you would do well to properly read this, and have a good long think about what people have written.

I am a very forgiving person; if it turns out you were unaware of how Palestinians have been treated, and are prepared to amend your views, I would respect that.

But if you are not prepared to listen, understand and acknowledge, then that is a big problem.

 

[renegademaster]

It's a war that is designed to punish an entire population for the actions of a minority of extremists.

It's a war designed to destroy militants at the disregard for everyone else. They shouldn't disregarding everyone else but it's a different thing, they aren't deliberately targeting civilians but not much bothered if they get in the way. Like the RAF during WW2.

 

[yorkie]

It's a war designed to destroy militants at the disregard for everyone else.

Yes, committing war crimes and disregarding thousands of civilian deaths isn't really an acceptable byproduct.

There is also the small problem that "destroying" militants is a simplistic concept that may sound good to some people, but such actions only serve to create more militants in place of those who have been "destroyed"!

They shouldn't disregarding everyone else but it's a different thing, they aren't deliberately targeting civilians but not much bothered if they get in the way. Like the RAF during WW2.

It's nothing like WW2. If you want to get into such a comparison, I think you'll find if anything roles are a reversal of what you appear to be stating, but a direct comparison isn't really possible. You would need to have that debate in a separate thread as it's not really for this thread.

 

[AlterEgo]

Intent is one of the largest components in criminal law.

Tell that to the families of the 30,000+ civilians killed in Gaza in the last six months. If you had to carry your dead daughter out of your garden in several shuttle runs because her body was no longer intact, how consoled might you be by an assurance that the shell that killed her was intended for someone else?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Unless of course you are claiming G-d gave the land to the Jews and this outweighs other claims. In which case I’d like to point out that He also gave the whole world to Islam. And also to Christianity, suggesting to me that He is somewhat unreliable.

In my opinion, religion (gerin oil) poisons everything. When one or both sides claim they have a god given right.