A few historical questions on the Circle Line.

[Cowley]

Afternoon folks.

I’ve got a few historical questions for all you London Underground experts. This is related to a bit of research for someone I know that’s currently writing a fictional novel and part of it is set in 1941. The ones here I would really appreciate a bit of advice on if possible:

1. Would it be feasible for two kids to hide under a bench seat in a tube train on the circle line in 1941?

I was looking at pictures of O and P stock which I believe worked the line in that era and was wondering whether the forward/back facing seat bases could be lifted off and if there was a void underneath them?

2. Was it called the circle line?

From what I can see from reading about it on this site, the Metropolitan Railway and the District Railway ran the services before being amalgamated into LU in 1933 but the actual Circle Line title didn’t appear until 1949 when it also appeared in yellow on the tube map, is that about right?

3. Is it possible to access the old LU headquarters from St James Park tube station? For instance was there a direct former staff route from the platforms?

4. Would there have been something like a service lift up to street level at St. James park? Did any stations have things like that?

5. Was there a British museum station where museum artefacts were stored on the platform during the war or was that at Aldwych?

That’s it for now but any thoughts on the above would be much appreciated!

 

[Magdalia]

3. Is it possible to access the old LU headquarters from St James Park tube station? For instance was there a direct former staff route from the platforms?

The main entrance hall of the LU HQ and the eastern end entrance to the District Line platforms were both in the shopping mall at ground level in the vee between Broadway and Petty France, and beneath the LU HQ.

Recollecting the days of my working career there was no step free access to/from the platforms at St James' Park.

To get from the platforms to LU HQ involved walking up the stairs at the eastern end, passing through the barrier, then one of the main entrances to LU HQ was on the right.

There was also an exit at the western end of the station to Palmer Street.

5. Was there a British museum station where museum artefacts were stored on the platform during the war or was that at Aldwych?

British Museum station was featured on Secrets of the London Underground last Tuesday. Watching that definitely needs to be part of the research.

 

[Trainguy34]

And one more question: @Cowley, what is this book about as I would love to read it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

2. Was it called the circle line?

Wasn't it referred to as the 'Inner Circle' for a long time?

 

[Ken H]

@Cowley Circle used to be the Inner Circle. It dates back to the 19th Century

The Inner circle

The inner cirlce The inner circle was a railway created by the metropolitan District railway between 1863-1884. •First the line went from Farringdon street to Paddington •Then to south Kensington. •From south Kensington to...

british-transport.fandom.com

There was also an outer circle run by the \Midland using running powers

There were also attempts to make a middle circle but I think they foundered.

Give me a shout if you want me to dig further

 

[Dstock7080]

The main entrance hall of the LU HQ and the eastern end entrance to the District Line platforms were both in the shopping mall at ground level in the vee between Broadway and Petty France, and beneath the LU HQ.

To get from the platforms to LU HQ involved walking up the stairs at the eastern end, passing through the barrier, then one of the main entrances to LU HQ was on the right.

There are emergency staircases at St. James’s Park from 55 Broadway that come out onto both platforms.

 

[3141]

Afternoon folks.

I’ve got a few historical questions for all you London Underground experts. This is related to a bit of research for someone I know that’s currently writing a fictional novel and part of it is set in 1941. The ones here I would really appreciate a bit of advice on if possible:

1. Would it be feasible for two kids to hide under a bench seat in a tube train on the circle line in 1941?

I was looking at pictures of O and P stock which I believe worked the line in that era and was wondering whether the forward/back facing seat bases could be lifted off and if there was a void underneath them?

2. Was it called the circle line?

From what I can see from reading about it on this site, the Metropolitan Railway and the District Railway ran the services before being amalgamated into LU in 1933 but the actual Circle Line title didn’t appear until 1949 when it also appeared in yellow on the tube map, is that about right?

3. Is it possible to access the old LU headquarters from St James Park tube station? For instance was there a direct former staff route from the platforms?

4. Would there have been something like a service lift up to street level at St. James park? Did any stations have things like that?

5. Was there a British museum station where museum artefacts were stored on the platform during the war or was that at Aldwych?

That’s it for now but any thoughts on the above would be much appreciated!

1. The trains on the the Inner Circle in 1941 were former Metropolitan Railway stock dating from the early 1920s. They weren't then referred to as "tube trains", that term being used for the small trains running in roughly 12 feet diameter tunnels. It's only relatively recently that LU has begun to use the term "tube" for all its Underground railways - erroneously. O and P stock didn't start on the Circle till the 1950s. I can't find a picture of the Inner Circle stock, so I can't say if it would have been possible to hide under the seats; I'll keep looking. They had hand-operated doors.

2) I think 1949 is about the right date for when the name Circle Line was introduced and the colour yellow. Yes, both the Metropolitan and the Metropolitan District were involved in constructing the Inner Circle, with much disagreement between them, and jointly ran it.

5. It was Aldwych where British Museum artefacts were stored, as there was a disused tunnel there; and also, I think, the train service was withdrawn in which case both tunnels could be used. British Museum was on the Central Line and dust stirred up by passing trains wouldn't have done Museum artefacts much good.

 

[Cowley]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ve been out doing family stuff today so I’ve only just been able to properly look at now.

The main entrance hall of the LU HQ and the eastern end entrance to the District Line platforms were both in the shopping mall at ground level in the vee between Broadway and Petty France, and beneath the LU HQ.

Recollecting the days of my working career there was no step free access to/from the platforms at St James' Park.

To get from the platforms to LU HQ involved walking up the stairs at the eastern end, passing through the barrier, then one of the main entrances to LU HQ was on the right.

There was also an exit at the western end of the station to Palmer Street.

All useful details, thanks @Magdalia.

British Museum station was featured on Secrets of the London Underground last Tuesday. Watching that definitely needs to be part of the research.

I’m going to watch that in a bit. I think that’ll provide quite a lot of detail by the looks of things.

And one more question: @Cowley, what is this book about as I would love to read it.

It’s not really my place to say unfortunately as it’s very much a case of work in progress. Once things are a bit further along though I will be able to provide a bit more detail if he’s happy with it hopefully.

2. Was it called the circle line?

Wasn't it referred to as the 'Inner Circle' for a long time?

@Cowley Circle used to be the Inner Circle. It dates back to the 19th Century

The Inner circle

The inner cirlce The inner circle was a railway created by the metropolitan District railway between 1863-1884. •First the line went from Farringdon street to Paddington •Then to south Kensington. •From south Kensington to...

british-transport.fandom.com

There was also an outer circle run by the \Midland using running powers

There were also attempts to make a middle circle but I think they foundered.

Give me a shout if you want me to dig further

Yes it seems so and thanks for that @Ken H.

There are emergency staircases at St. James’s Park from 55 Broadway that come out onto both platforms.

Again that’s very useful information @Dstock7080.

1. The trains on the the Inner Circle in 1941 were former Metropolitan Railway stock dating from the early 1920s. They weren't then referred to as "tube trains", that term being used for the small trains running in roughly 12 feet diameter tunnels. It's only relatively recently that LU has begun to use the term "tube" for all its Underground railways - erroneously. O and P stock didn't start on the Circle till the 1950s.

Ah. That’s good to know.

I can't find a picture of the Inner Circle stock, so I can't say if it would have been possible to hide under the seats; I'll keep looking. They had hand-operated doors.

Hand operated doors? Wow, I really didn’t expect that. I suppose I was looking at the 1938 deep level stock and assuming (wrongly by the looks of things) that the trains would be on a par with them.

2) I think 1949 is about the right date for when the name Circle Line was introduced and the colour yellow. Yes, both the Metropolitan and the Metropolitan District were involved in constructing the Inner Circle, with much disagreement between them, and jointly ran it.

Yes it looks like it was a somewhat fractious relationship!

5. It was Aldwych where British Museum artefacts were stored, as there was a disused tunnel there; and also, I think, the train service was withdrawn in which case both tunnels could be used. British Museum was on the Central Line and dust stirred up by passing trains wouldn't have done Museum artefacts much good.

Great stuff @3141, thanks for that and again thanks to everyone else. It’s been very useful.

 

[Roger1973]

I can't comment with authority for 1941, but I have a 1935 London Transport summary timetable book to hand, it lists the 'Metropolitan and District Lines - Circle Service' rather than 'circle line' - the map/s are missing from it, but there's a 1939 map on the LT Museum website which shows the District and Metropolitan lines (including what's now the Circle, Hammersmith + City, and what was the East London line - which then partly ran through on to the Hammersmith + City) all in green.

I've seen references to the 'inner circle' in books set in to the post-war years.

British Museum station (Central Line) closed 1933 - part of the platform level area appears to have been used as an air raid shelter. More here.

Service on the Aldwych branch was suspended from September 1940 to July 1946 - some British Museum items that were stored there initially were moved out when more of the tunnels became used for air raid shelters. I think one of the running line tunnels was used, rather than platform/s. More here.

55 Broadway was London Transport headquarters, not just London Underground - while the Underground was a separate department within LT, and 'the Underground' was a thing, LU as an organisation didn't come in to being until the mid 1980s.

A few asides - I take it that author is aware that all underground trains had (on train) guards in that era* There would have been women station / platform staff from about 1940 (as a result of male staff joining the armed services) but women didn't become train drivers until the 1970s. I don't think there were women train guards on the underground during the wars either, but others may be able to give an answer either way to this.

Automated announcements were not really a thing. Either guard or platform staff would often call out 'mind the doors' before closing doors - although I don't remember hand-operated doors, so don't know how these were despatched.

* - may not be relevant to the plot, and / or may be stating the obvious, but thought I'd mention it, having seen something 'historic' on the telly a while back that included a passenger paying their bus fare to the driver across the bonnet of a rear entrance / half-cab bus...

 

[Cowley]

I can't comment with authority for 1941, but I have a 1935 London Transport summary timetable book to hand, it lists the 'Metropolitan and District Lines - Circle Service' rather than 'circle line' - the map/s are missing from it, but there's a 1939 map on the LT Museum website which shows the District and Metropolitan lines (including what's now the Circle, Hammersmith + City, and what was the East London line - which then partly ran through on to the Hammersmith + City) all in green.

I've seen references to the 'inner circle' in books set in to the post-war years.

British Museum station (Central Line) closed 1933 - part of the platform level area appears to have been used as an air raid shelter. More here.

Service on the Aldwych branch was suspended from September 1940 to July 1946 - some British Museum items that were stored there initially were moved out when more of the tunnels became used for air raid shelters. I think one of the running line tunnels was used, rather than platform/s. More here.

Thanks for the above, there’s some useful details in there.

55 Broadway was London Transport headquarters, not just London Underground - while the Underground was a separate department within LT, and 'the Underground' was a thing, LU as an organisation didn't come in to being until the mid 1980s.

A few asides - I take it that author is aware that all underground trains had (on train) guards in that era* There would have been women station / platform staff from about 1940 (as a result of male staff joining the armed services) but women didn't become train drivers until the 1970s. I don't think there were women train guards on the underground during the wars either, but others may be able to give an answer either way to this.

I must admit that I hadn’t even thought about that.

Automated announcements were not really a thing. Either guard or platform staff would often call out 'mind the doors' before closing doors - although I don't remember hand-operated doors, so don't know how these were despatched.

* - may not be relevant to the plot, and / or may be stating the obvious, but thought I'd mention it, having seen something 'historic' on the telly a while back that included a passenger paying their bus fare to the driver across the bonnet of a rear entrance / half-cab bus...

It’s striking the balance between making these kind of details correct but not getting too far into the weeds with it I guess. We’ve all read threads on here where we’ve picked apart films for inaccuracies which let’s be fair 99% of the population probably wouldn’t ever pick up on, but I know that he’d like to get it as correct as reasonably possible because if nothing else it can bring the story to life if you have a detailed picture in your mind.

 

[urbophile]

I remember travelling on one of the trains with hand operated doors, as a child in the very late 1940s or maybe early 50s. I was scared out of my wits as other passengers seemed to have no problem with leaving them half-open while the train screeched through the dark tunnel. Of course they were sliding doors, otherwise similar to present day ones, not the 'slam door' type.

 

[Roger1973]

It’s striking the balance between making these kind of details correct but not getting too far into the weeds with it I guess

Yes - there are limits when it comes to historic accuracy - and for a work of fiction, it may be appropriate to add some secret tunnels or other 'hush hush' activity below ground level.

Another aspect of the underground in 1941 would have been the blackout regulations - again, others can probably add to this, but would have thought that underground trains that went above the surface (and that's pretty much all of them at some point of their journey) would have had reduced interior lighting (buses certainly did) - I don't know if more lighting could be turned on while the trains were safely below ground - this would have required a bit of re-wiring so might or might not have happened.

Stations would also have had lighting reduced where it could be seen from outside.

And many (maybe all?) trains had netting fitted inside the windows, to reduce the risk of injury from flying broken glass if a train was close enough to be caught in bomb blast.

Of course they were sliding doors, otherwise similar to present day ones, not the 'slam door' type.

Although I think I'm right in saying that slam door trains worked on the Metropolitan main line (so would have got at least as far as Liverpool Street if not Aldgate) in to the 1960s. (probably not relevant to this story if the 'action' is at St James Park.)

 

[Wolfie]

Afternoon folks.

I’ve got a few historical questions for all you London Underground experts. This is related to a bit of research for someone I know that’s currently writing a fictional novel and part of it is set in 1941. The ones here I would really appreciate a bit of advice on if possible:

1. Would it be feasible for two kids to hide under a bench seat in a tube train on the circle line in 1941?

I was looking at pictures of O and P stock which I believe worked the line in that era and was wondering whether the forward/back facing seat bases could be lifted off and if there was a void underneath them?

2. Was it called the circle line?

From what I can see from reading about it on this site, the Metropolitan Railway and the District Railway ran the services before being amalgamated into LU in 1933 but the actual Circle Line title didn’t appear until 1949 when it also appeared in yellow on the tube map, is that about right?

3. Is it possible to access the old LU headquarters from St James Park tube station? For instance was there a direct former staff route from the platforms?

4. Would there have been something like a service lift up to street level at St. James park? Did any stations have things like that?

5. Was there a British museum station where museum artefacts were stored on the platform during the war or was that at Aldwych?

That’s it for now but any thoughts on the above would be much appreciated!

Not sure if you have seen this site but it might be helpful.

Rolling Stock - Tube History

Since the tube network opened there has been many different trains that have operated over the railways, from steam hulled to electric trains.

www.tube-history.uk

 

[Cowley]

Not sure if you have seen this site but it might be helpful.

Rolling Stock - Tube History

Since the tube network opened there has been many different trains that have operated over the railways, from steam hulled to electric trains.

www.tube-history.uk

I did link it earlier but I wasn’t quite sure what I was looking for so I think I might have to spend a bit more time on it later. It’s a very good site.

 

[Gloster]

Looking at Steam to Silver I would say that it would not be possible to sit under longitudinal seats as it looks as if they had panels set 6” or so back underneath the seat: presumably these covered electrical equipment. I will delve further to see if I can confirm which types were in use, but it might be a case of yes for some and no for others. Do they plan it so that they can catch a specific train or just chance it and grab the first?

 

[Wolfie]

I did link it earlier but I wasn’t quite sure what I was looking for so I think I might have to spend a bit more time on it later. It’s a very good site.

This might be of interest. There are some older pictures in there.

London Underground District Line Train Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images

Browse Getty Images’ premium collection of high-quality, authentic London Underground District Line Train stock photos, royalty-free images, and pictures. London Underground District Line Train stock photos are available in a variety of sizes and formats to fit your needs.

www.gettyimages.co.uk

 

[Cowley]

Looking at Steam to Silver I would say that it would not be possible to sit under longitudinal seats as it looks as if they had panels set 6” or so back underneath the seat: presumably these covered electrical equipment. I will delve further to see if I can confirm which types were in use, but it might be a case of yes for some and no for others. Do they plan it so that they can catch a specific train or just chance it and grab the first?

We’re talking about two kids (I guess around the age of 13) trying to find somewhere to hide in one of the carriages while it’s being evacuated. Of course it might not be technically possible and artistic license may have to come into play.

This might be of interest. There are some older pictures in there.

London Underground District Line Train Photos and Premium High Res Pictures - Getty Images

Browse Getty Images’ premium collection of high-quality, authentic London Underground District Line Train stock photos, royalty-free images, and pictures. London Underground District Line Train stock photos are available in a variety of sizes and formats to fit your needs.

www.gettyimages.co.uk

Thanks for that @Wolfie. I’ll have a look at it now.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I can't comment with authority for 1941, but I have a 1935 London Transport summary timetable book to hand, it lists the 'Metropolitan and District Lines - Circle Service' rather than 'circle line' - the map/s are missing from it, but there's a 1939 map on the LT Museum website which shows the District and Metropolitan lines (including what's now the Circle, Hammersmith + City, and what was the East London line - which then partly ran through on to the Hammersmith + City) all in green.

I've seen references to the 'inner circle' in books set in to the post-war years.

British Museum station (Central Line) closed 1933 - part of the platform level area appears to have been used as an air raid shelter. More here.

Service on the Aldwych branch was suspended from September 1940 to July 1946 - some British Museum items that were stored there initially were moved out when more of the tunnels became used for air raid shelters. I think one of the running line tunnels was used, rather than platform/s. More here.

55 Broadway was London Transport headquarters, not just London Underground - while the Underground was a separate department within LT, and 'the Underground' was a thing, LU as an organisation didn't come in to being until the mid 1980s.

A few asides - I take it that author is aware that all underground trains had (on train) guards in that era* There would have been women station / platform staff from about 1940 (as a result of male staff joining the armed services) but women didn't become train drivers until the 1970s. I don't think there were women train guards on the underground during the wars either, but others may be able to give an answer either way to this.

Automated announcements were not really a thing. Either guard or platform staff would often call out 'mind the doors' before closing doors - although I don't remember hand-operated doors, so don't know how these were despatched.

* - may not be relevant to the plot, and / or may be stating the obvious, but thought I'd mention it, having seen something 'historic' on the telly a while back that included a passenger paying their bus fare to the driver across the bonnet of a rear entrance / half-cab bus...

Some below-ground parts of the disused British Museum station - whatever they were in terms of bomb shelters in WW2 - remained in the hands of the government afterwards; during the Cold War they were (a minor) one of the government bunkers in which to tuck troops etc away ready to emerge into what if anything would be left after a nuclear attack on London. (It wasn't one of London's 5 main Borough Group Controls [which were the approximate organisational equivalent of the Sub-Regional Controls in parts of the country where the RSG {Regional Seat of Government} covered a much larger geographical area than did the RSG covering London {the London RSG was actually in Essex - probably quite sensible given what state London would have been in in that situation}].) For those interested, there's more on this in a book (one chapter of which I wrote) published about 40 years ago called War and Order: Researching State Structures, edited by Celina Bledowska.

Until the block concerned (which is on the north side of High Holborn right where it meets New Oxford Street) was rebuilt - in the 1980s or soon after - there were signs remaining of its one-time use (albeit for little more than 30 years, until it was replaced with a - nearby - new station, to interchange with the Piccadilly Line at Holborn, in 1933) as a tube station. During some at least of that period up to the rebuilding, there was a little entrance door into the side of the building (from a pedestrian path, on the western side of the building, linking High Holborn to Barter Street), providing access to the underground areas without the need to go via the business now using the above-ground part of the premises. There was a desk just inside that door where officials entering and leaving the government "bunker" could be logged in and out.

 

[Snow1964]

Looking at Steam to Silver I would say that it would not be possible to sit under longitudinal seats as it looks as if they had panels set 6” or so back underneath the seat: presumably these covered electrical equipment. I will delve further to see if I can confirm which types were in use, but it might be a case of yes for some and no for others. Do they plan it so that they can catch a specific train or just chance it and grab the first?

During the 1940s was quite a mix of types, and some trains were made up with vehicles from different batches

Wouldn't have been able to get under the cushions, most were three seats long, the seat cushions were big heavy things about 4-7 inches thick, and not designed to be lifted up. They certainly were not hinged and slim like modern tube stock.

Just dug out Underground Movement book and pictures show the seat bases heavily upholstered, with the front of the material about halfway to the floor. The surface stock of 1930s generally had equipment under the floor, not under the seats.

If you want your children to hide, might be easier for them to sneak through one of the sliding door partitions into first class, first class was in use until early in WW2, and the separation screens were only glazed from about waist up, so a child hiding on the floor would be missed unless someone walked through and checked fully.

The District line was using G class (from 1923), K (from 1927), L (1931), M and N (1935), Q (1938)

Air operated doors only started to be introduced from mid 1930s on surface stock, prior to that were hand operated sliding doors.

British Museum station (on Central line) was closed when the new platforms were opened at Holborn to provide interchange with the Piccadilly (which is why the platforms are on outside of the tracks, as added later). British Museum never had the extended platforms and would still have been accessed through lift shaft when it closed.

 

[Gloster]

Having looked at what few books I have (so not a definite answer), I doubt that it would be possible for children to hind under the seats. It might be possible to pull themselves close enough in and under the front of the longitudinal seats that they were not visible to someone walking along the adjacent platform, even if they were looking in through the windows as they passed.

 

[Busaholic]

The main entrance hall of the LU HQ and the eastern end entrance to the District Line platforms were both in the shopping mall at ground level in the vee between Broadway and Petty France, and beneath the LU HQ.

Recollecting the days of my working career there was no step free access to/from the platforms at St James' Park.

To get from the platforms to LU HQ involved walking up the stairs at the eastern end, passing through the barrier, then one of the main entrances to LU HQ was on the right.

There was also an exit at the western end of the station to Palmer Street.


British Museum station was featured on Secrets of the London Underground last Tuesday. Watching that definitely needs to be part of the research.

I worked there too, both pre and post the 1970 transfer of control to the GLC, and concur with what you say. St James's Park station was also the location of LT's Travel Enquiry Office, their sole one for many years. I used to go there on a regular basis as a schoolkid to pick up bus and underground maps.

55 Broadway is a listed building, upgraded from Level 2 to Level 1 in 2011, and was officially London's first skyscraper building in 1929 (don't tell that to a New Yorker!)

 

[Ken H]

The Metropolitan Line an the District Line are both sub surface lines built with cut and cover. The Hammersmith and City was part of the Metropolitan so thats the same. The Circle Line has very little tracks that are just for it, it just runs over Mt and District tracks. They use full size stock and used to have trains running onto them from 'proper' main line railways.

Then Marc Brunel built the East London railway in 1869 , the first tube railway as it built without breaking the surface. They used tunneling shields to make the tunnel. Of course its the East london line today, part of the overground.

Later a proper tube railway was built in the 1890's - The City and South London Railway. Its now part of the coty branch of the Northern Line

Central London Railway was next. Now the Central line. Flat fare of 2d so was the tuppeny tube.

Then there was a rash of people proposing tube railways in parliament.
There was the Baker Street and Waterloo Railway, The Charing Cross, Euston and Hampstead Railway, the Brompton and Piccadilly Circus Railway and the Great Northern and Strand Railway.

The Brompton and Piccadilly Circus Railway and the Great Northern and Strand were amalgamated to form the Great Northern, Piccadilly and Brompton Railway

Charles Tyson Yerkes bought the rights for these railways, and the District, and created the London Underground group. Later the City and South London and Central London were brought into the group.
He also brought the tramways and buses into the group. He also electrrified the District Line

So the whole thing was in private hands until 1933 when the London Passenger Transport Board was formed.
So 55 Broadway was built by a private company
1933 the Metropolitan railway was amalgamated into the group and became part of the LPTB

The LPTB was nationalised at the same time as the main line railways and became London Transport, part of the British Transport Commission

I hope this gives the OP some idea of the history, why the thing is so complex today, and why the Aldwych branch was built. (Aldwych station was originally 'Strand' - Not the same station as the one on the Bakerloo and District lines!) I hope that the difference between the history of the sub surface lines and the tube trains is clearer.

I am less clear about sub surface stock, but early tube trains had gates at each end of each car. An attendant worked the gates on the 2 cars where they were coupled. Slowly power doors were introduced to allow trains to be worked by driver and guard only. But I think sub surface stock was more like mainline railways with slam doors. Especially Metropolitan Line trains that had come from north of Aylesbury.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

No help afraid, but very interesting thread, having fond memories of the COP (former O & P DM's and ex Q trailers) that worked the District in the mid 70's. Most of my usage was from Wimbledon to Wimbledon Park, so didn't really take in too much detail other than the flared bodysides!

 

[edwin_m]

Then Marc Brunel built the East London railway in 1869 , the first tube railway as it built without breaking the surface. They used tunneling shields to make the tunnel. Of course its the East london line today, part of the overground.

Recognising this is complicated, but I think the above is over-simplifying somewhat.

The Thames Tunnel was completed in 1843 for use by pedestrians (also intended for horse-drawn carriages, but they ran out of money before they could built the necessary ramps either end). This built by tunneling horizontally from shafts either end, and was the first tube in the sense that it was first use of the "tunneling shield" Brunel invented that was later used for the deep tube lines. It wasn't of course the first tunnel, as many main line railways had built them by then.

The East London Railway took it over, and built extensions either end by the cut-and-cover techniques used on the Metropolitan and District railways (dig a deep trench, built walls and a roof and restore the ground above). This opened in 1869 but Marc Brunel had no involvement in the project, having died 20 years previously.

 

[Dstock7080]

No help afraid, but very interesting thread, having fond memories of the COP (former O & P DM's and ex Q trailers) that worked the District in the mid 70's.

CO/CP Stock were built new and didn’t have converted Q Stock as trailers.
You maybe thinking of R Stock, which had Q38 Stock trailer cars adapted to become R38 driving motor cars.

 

[urbophile]

The Metropolitan Line an the District Line are both sub surface lines built with cut and cover. The Hammersmith and City was part of the Metropolitan so thats the same.

Apologies for the extreme pedantry, and being wildly off-topic, but the distinctive stretch of the H&C (the rest is shared with other lines), Paddington to Hammersmith, is not cut and cover but all above ground. Much of it on viaducts.

 

[Busaholic]

I wasn't around in 1941, but I think it's essential for the author not to mention the word 'tube' in any of the story as outlined. Londoners in the 1950s would never confuse the much older Metropolitan and District Lines (from which the Circle Line was derived} with a tube railway line like the Bakerloo or Northern. The map of the London underground network was known as the Underground map, just as it had been from when Harry Beck worked on the first to be produced. I've even heard an Enquiry Office staff member, on being asked for a Tube map, to reply ''we don't produce a Tube map, but I can let you have a complete map of the London Underground which does include all the tube lines.''

I'm not being pedantic about this, just saying it as it was so the author can be more authentic.

 

[Cowley]

I wasn't around in 1941, but I think it's essential for the author not to mention the word 'tube' in any of the story as outlined. Londoners in the 1950s would never confuse the much older Metropolitan and District Lines (from which the Circle Line was derived} with a tube railway line like the Bakerloo or Northern. The map of the London underground network was known as the Underground map, just as it had been from when Harry Beck worked on the first to be produced. I've even heard an Enquiry Office staff member, on being asked for a Tube map, to reply ''we don't produce a Tube map, but I can let you have a complete map of the London Underground which does include all the tube lines.''

I'm not being pedantic about this, just saying it as it was so the author can be more authentic.

Yes that’s a very valid point and I will mention it.

I must say that even if he doesn’t incorporate every single detail mentioned in this thread it’s made for some really interesting reading, thanks everyone.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

CO/CP Stock were built new and didn’t have converted Q Stock as trailers.
You maybe thinking of R Stock, which had Q38 Stock trailer cars adapted to become R38 driving motor cars.

(former O & P DM's and some ex Q trailers)

Have edited my original post here (bold): Should have been clearer perhaps, but yes, I understand the R38 connection, which involved I believe 125 Q trailers, but from my understanding by 1977 there were still twenty one COP trailers variously numbered between 013105 to 013192 which were originally Q38 trailers, not that many admittedly I agree. But as others have commented, the whole process was very complicated....I can get... !

 

[Snow1964]

CO/CP Stock were built new and didn’t have converted Q Stock as trailers.
You maybe thinking of R Stock, which had Q38 Stock trailer cars adapted to become R38 driving motor cars.

CO/CP were conversions, not built new

The O and P stocks (which incorporated design elements of the 1935 experimental tube stock), were built at same time as 1938 tube stock and had Metropolitan Vickers developed Metadyne (rotary transformers) control gear, this was replaced few years after the war due to unreliability by camshaft control gear, and modified trains were reclassified as CO and CP