A few mail train questions from the early BR blue era.

[Cowley]

Evening history types.

I’ve always been quite interested in the make up of mail trains during the 1960s/70s and perhaps even into the early 1980s when they still featured vans built to former SR/GWR/LNER and LMS designs.

Would these vans be seen in trains around the whole network back then? For example could you find a BR blue painted Thompson designed 63ft van at Penzance, or perhaps a former Collett K41 design at Inverness?

Other older designs that I can think of that were painted in BR blue are the Stanier 50ft full brake, the western region GWR designed Siphon vans, the Gresley D113 full brake and the SR Bogie B. Were there any other ones?

Of the above, some Siphons and Bogie B’s were definitely still around in the 1980s but when would the other ones have disappeared?

Ok that’s it for the minute. Over to you…

 

[30907]

I assume you aren't talking TPO vehicles?

From memory, some were definitely labelled for specific duties, and wouldn't (in theory) have strayed, but beyond that.... I can certainly recall photos of ex SR GUVs beyond Inverness, though that doesn't answer your question.

 

[Cowley]

I assume you aren't talking TPO vehicles?

Yes sorry, just general parcels vans really.

From memory, some were definitely labelled for specific duties, and wouldn't (in theory) have strayed, but beyond that.... I can certainly recall photos of ex SR GUVs beyond Inverness, though that doesn't answer your question.

Interesting though. I’m trying to find a few photos of the kind of thing I mean at the moment.

 

[Gloster]

My memories are from the late 1970s on. Most of the older vehicles were just in common use for parcels traffic and were used indiscriminately with more modern vehicles. The LMS bogie brakes were in common use and could be seen on most parts of the network, as could most of the SR ones; the SR CCT and PMV were particularly noticeable beyond Inverness. The remaining GWR Siphons tended to be used on the WR: many of them were restricted to News traffic. The LNE vans had all gone.

A lot would depend on the carriage working diagrams, which indicated which type of vehicle should be sent where, although, for example, there would be no differentiation between an SR and a BR CCT, and often a PMV would be sent instead. However, there were some locations were for practical reasons certain vans had to be used or avoided: at Andover the four short vans had to include at least one CCT as it was loaded through the end door on the second road. There should also be a GUV or another type without a brake compartment as only one door could be fitted on the loading platform and if there was a guard’s compartment, the gangway was too narrow to allow BRUTEs to be pushed past and so you could only load them in one end.

The most numerous types were the LMS 50’, and the SR CCT and PMV. The LMS vans were blue, but although some of the SR ones were also blue, many were a shade of brown (known as s**t brown) and at least some were still green somewhere underneath, possibly even red. The only bit visible was the number, which people like me had to read, which was often in the pre-1964 style.

From memory, some were definitely labelled for specific duties, and wouldn't (in theory) have strayed, but beyond that.... I can certainly recall photos of ex SR GUVs beyond Inverness, though that doesn't answer your question.

GUV or CCT/PMV.

 

[Cowley]

My memories are from the late 1970s on. Most of the older vehicles were just in common use for parcels traffic and were used indiscriminately with more modern vehicles. The LMS bogie brakes were in common use and could be seen on most parts of the network, as could most of the SR ones; the SR CCT and PMV were particularly noticeable beyond Inverness. The remaining GWR Siphons tended to be used on the WR: many of them were restricted to News traffic. The LNE vans had all gone.

A lot would depend on the carriage working diagrams, which indicated which type of vehicle should be sent where, although, for example, there would be no differentiation between an SR and a BR CCT, and often a PMV would be sent instead. However, there were some locations were for practical reasons certain vans had to be used or avoided: at Andover the four short vans had to include at least one CCT as it was loaded through the end door on the second road. There should also be a GUV or another type without a brake compartment as only one door could be fitted on the loading platform and if there was a guard’s compartment, the gangway was too narrow to allow BRUTEs to be pushed past and so you could only load them in one end.

The most numerous types were the LMS 50’, and the SR CCT and PMV. The LMS vans were blue, but although some of the SR ones were also blue, many were a shade of brown (known as s**t brown) and at least some were still green somewhere underneath, possibly even red. The only bit visible was the number, which people like me had to read, which was often in the pre-1964 style.




GUV or CCT/PMV.

Fascinating stuff @Gloster thanks for that.

Regarding the BR CCTs, would they just be used generally in amongst a standard rake of BGs/GUVs etc, or were they more suited to a certain type of traffic with their 4 wheeled chassis’?

 

[Gloster]

Fascinating stuff @Gloster thanks for that.

Regarding the BR CCTs, would they just be used generally in amongst a standard rake of BGs/GUVs etc, or were they more suited to a certain type of traffic with their 4 wheeled chassis’?

Just as a common user with everything else, although there might be some traffics or locations where they were preferred or mandated. However, as with Andover, it could just be any type with end doors: we used a BR GUV once, which was probably not appreciated somewhere further along its route to Bristol.

I forgot to mention that the Barnstaple line used GWR design Fruit D (probably all from the BR builds) until around 1979 for its parcels traffic, which I think was transshipped at Exeter. After they went I think they used BR CCT: I never saw anything else.

 

[Cowley]

Just as a common user with everything else, although there might be some traffics or locations where they were preferred or mandated. However, as with Andover, it could just be any type with end doors: we used a BR GUV once, which was probably not appreciated somewhere further along its route to Bristol.

Ok that all makes sense.

I forgot to mention that the Barnstaple line used GWR design Fruit D (probably all from the BR builds) until around 1979 for its parcels traffic, which I think was transshipped at Exeter. After they went I think they used BR CCT: I never saw anything else.

They also used some version (I always get them mixed up) of a Siphon on the Barnstaple line in the early 1980s. Do you remember that one?

 

[Andy R. A.]

Ex GW Siphons could be seen quite regularly working in and out of Euston on Parcels services through the 1970s in blue livery. One was in the formation of the Stranraer to Euston Parcels which was derailed between Wolverton and Bletchley in 1977, the train consist showing the make up of the train is listed in the accident report. https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Wolverton1977.pdf

 

[Cowley]

Ex GW Siphons could be seen quite regularly working in and out of Euston on Parcels services through the 1970s in blue livery. One was in the formation of the Stranraer to Euston Parcels which was derailed between Wolverton and Bletchley in 1977, the train consist showing the make up of the train is listed in the accident report. https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Wolverton1977.pdf

Interesting. Would a vehicle like that receive routine maintenance at its home depot or could it be done anywhere?

Edit - probably need to explain a few abbreviations:

BG - Brake Gangwayed
GUV - General Utility Van
CCT - Covered Carriage Truck
PMV - Parcels and Miscellaneous Van

Any others?

 

[Andy R. A.]

Interesting. Would a vehicle like that receive routine maintenance at its home depot or could it be done anywhere?

I think they were serviced whenever and where ever they needed it. Pretty sure brake blocks were changed on the Siphons when they were 'away from home'. I seem to recall that 4K04 0540 Euston to Crewe (via Shrewsbury) Parcels would often turn up a Siphon or two in the mid to late 1970s.

 

[Gloster]

They also used some version (I always get them mixed up) of a Siphon on the Barnstaple line in the early 1980s. Do you remember that one?

I don’t remember that. There was a BR GUV with newspapers that went out attached to the 04.05 Exeter DMU: it was supposed to come down as the rear van of the 00.30 Paddington News, but on every one of the occasions that I saw it they were transferring the papers across.

Also B Bogie Brake, although many had no brake compartment, and SPV Special Parcels Van, the former fish vans that were gradually disappearing. There also some exotica. At the time they were moving over to the new TOPS codes: NAV, NEA, NQV, etc.

 

[Cowley]

I think they were serviced whenever and where ever they needed it. Pretty sure brake blocks were changed on the Siphons when they were 'away from home'. I seem to recall that 4K04 0540 Euston to Crewe (via Shrewsbury) Parcels would often turn up a Siphon or two in the mid to late 1970s.

Thanks Andy. Where would the Siphons have been based back in those days, any idea?

I don’t remember that. There was a BR GUV with newspapers that went out attached to the 04.05 Exeter DMU: it was supposed to come down as the rear van of the 00.30 Paddington News, but on every one of the occasions that I saw it they were transferring the papers across.

Is that the one that used to be stabled in the centre road at Barnstaple in the daytime?

Also B Bogie Brake, although many had no brake compartment,

That was a question that I had actually. Would they have had anything like a handbrake wheel or a vacuum valve/gauge built in or where they just empty?

and SPV Special Parcels Van, the former fish vans that were gradually disappearing. There also some exotica. At the time they were moving over to the new TOPS codes: NAV, NEA, NQV, etc.

Interesting stuff.

 

[Gloster]

Is that the one that used to be stabled in the centre road at Barnstaple in the daytime?


That was a question that I had actually. Would they have had anything like a handbrake wheel or a vacuum valve/gauge built in or where they just empty?


Interesting stuff.

1 - Yes,I am fairly sure.

2 - All the LMS ones I saw were completely gutted inside (very convenient for pushing BRUTEs through if you only had access through one door), so no brake handle or wheel. The SR ones may have still had the fittings as I think they still had the compartment. I only saw one or two and it was too dark inside to notice much: if they had working lights, I didn’t know where the switch was.

BRUTE - British Rail Universal Trolley Equipment (I think), those blue, three-sided wire cages on small wheels that used to infest the network. As someone who once caught his foot under one (never pull them, I was told, but I knew better), I feel brute is a very suitable name.

 

[Andy R. A.]

Thanks Andy. Where would the Siphons have been based back in those days, any idea?

I'm not that certain. From memory there were no external 'legends' saying to where the van was allocated, other than the 'W' pre-fix. They seemed to pop up in nearly any formation. I can remember them arriving at Euston on 3M19 (1935 ex Glasgow), but they may have been attached at any of the calling points along the way ? It was always interesting to observe the make up of the Parcels traffic back then. The former LMS BGs varied too, some still retaining their original gangways and others that had them removed and plated over. A regular feature of 1M14 2230 from Stranraer Harbour was that it regularly produced a former LMS BG on the rear in plain blue livery.

 

[Gloster]

I think the practice with most types of vans was that minor work, probably up to changing wheel sets, could be done at any suitable C&W (Carriage & Wagon) depot or even by a mobile heavy gang, but more serious work involved the vehicle being sent to the responsible works. This was probably Swindon for the Siphons, Ashford for the SR wooden vehicles and Wolverton for the LMS ones, although that is only my best guess. As there were over 300 LMS vans at the beginning of 1980, removing the gangways was spread over several years.

 

[Cowley]

I think the practice with most types of vans was that minor work, probably up to changing wheel sets, could be done at any suitable C&W (Carriage & Wagon) depot or even by a mobile heavy gang, but more serious work involved the vehicle being sent to the responsible works. This was probably Swindon for the Siphons, Ashford for the SR wooden vehicles and Wolverton for the LMS ones, although that is only my best guess. As there were over 300 LMS vans at the beginning of 1980, removing the gangways was spread over several years.

That does make a lot of sense.

300 ex LMS vans at the beginning of 1980 though? That’s a surprisingly high number!

 

[Gloster]

That does make a lot of sense.

300 ex LMS vans at the beginning of 1980 though? That’s a surprisingly high number!

There were 593 SR PMV and 799 BR CCT, plus plenty of other types. As long as the C & D (Collect & Deliver) service operated (it ended in 1981) there was a lot of parcels traffic wandering round the network, plus post, newspapers, magazines, luggage in advance, etc.

 

[Andy R. A.]

I thought I had some info on the allocations of these vans, but still looking through piles of stuff.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

On the SWD from various CWN's it is clear to see the gradual removal of the old ex SR vans, and their replacement by BR types. Taking a couple of designated 'Newspaper' trains as examples, as per Waterloo departure;

02.15 Waterloo to Weymouth

1966: 2 PMV (MX), 1 Van B (News), 1 PMV (MX), 1 GUV, 3 BG, 1 GUV, 1 PMV (MX).
1971: 1 BG, 3 GUV (MX), 1 BG, 3 GUV, 1 GUV (MX), 1 GUV.
1979: 1 BG, 1 GUV (MX), 3 GUV, 2 GUV (MX), 1 GUV (MO)

03.40 Waterloo to Portsmouth

1966: 1 PMV, 1 Van B, 1 PMV (MX), 1 Van B, 1 PMV (MX), 1 GUV, 1 Van B, 2 PMV (MX), 1 BY, 1 GUV (MX), 1 PMV (MX), 2 GUV.
1971: 1 PMV (MX), 1 GUV, 1 BG(Z), 3 PMV, 1 BG(Z), 1 PMV (MX), 1 GUV, 1 PMV, 2 GUV, 1 BG (MX), 3 PMV (MX).
1979: 1 GUV, 2 CCT*, 1 CCT* (MX), 1 GUV, 2 CCT* (MO), 1 CCT* (MX).

* I would expect these to be BR 94xxx series CCT's, not their SR predecessors.

Many foreign vans could still be seen around the SW well in to the 70's, including GW Siphon G's, LM BG's (30xxx/31xxx series), LM CCT's (37xxx), and LNE CCT's (E12xx/E13xx). Also the occasional ex LNE 6 wheeled brake (E70xxx) noted.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Ex GW Siphons could be seen quite regularly working in and out of Euston on Parcels services through the 1970s in blue livery. One was in the formation of the Stranraer to Euston Parcels which was derailed between Wolverton and Bletchley in 1977, the train consist showing the make up of the train is listed in the accident report. https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Wolverton1977.pdf

The report had a typo in the stock types; the 'Store B' should read 'Stove B'. Stove-fitted brakes were important because there was no steam heat on parcels trains - not least because most non gangway NPCCS wasn't steam piped. Explains the remarkable survival of the 'Stove R' - ex LMS 6 wheel gangwayed brake vans. ('R' was the L.M.S. code - B.R., BGZ).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before T.O.P.S and the associated systems were applied to coaching stock, N.P.C.C.S. was not allocated to a depot. Maintenance was on the basis of 'P.E.' (Periodic exam) dates waterproof-chalked on the under frame and 'SP' (Shopping Proposal from due) on the ends. There were no central records of routine maintenance.

The formation of parcels trains was even more organised than the Carriage Working Circulars/Marchalling Circulars of passenger stock. Not only was the formation of the train and where stock was added and removed laid down, but the loading of each van (i.e., which traffic consigned to where) was to be loaded down to the detail of the part (by door) of the van concerned. Newspaper trains were similarly organised, loading and unloading was always done with extreme haste and urgency when printing was entirely concentrated in Fleet Street and distributed all over the country by 6-ish the next morning..

I spent some part of my railway career working in parcels and newspapers. It's strange to me that the 'Enthusiast' magazines devoted a lot of space to a few select subjects (drivers' recollections, 'what I saw when I was spotting', timing logs of trains) but nothing about other, very interesting at least to me, aspects of railway operation. All those parcel trains formation and loading booklets have been lost, happily at the time thrown in the bin at timetable change time.

 

[Cowley]

I’ve just been having a look through this thread on Rmweb. There’s some good photos of mixed trains with the various types mentioned in there.

Modelling a traditional parcels train

R0798 - Manchester Victoria by BarkingBill, on Flickr Id like to start a thread on Parcels trains. the main reason being to compile info on what vehicles where used in a typical parcel train and also the best and worst of the RTR and kit built offerings of these vehicles. my favourite era is the ...

www.rmweb.co.uk

 

[Rescars]

BRUTE - British Rail Universal Trolley Equipment (I think), those blue, three-sided wire cages on small wheels that used to infest the network. As someone who once caught his foot under one (never pull them, I was told, but I knew better), I feel brute is a very suitable name.

I recall BRUTEs being manhandled in and out of a BG on several occasions without a ramp. Definitely wise to keep your feet clear! And the noise when being trundled in convoy along a platform. Truly Brutes in every sense!!

 

[Merle Haggard]

I recall BRUTEs being manhandled in and out of a BG on several occasions without a ramp. Definitely wise to keep your feet clear! And the noise when being trundled in convoy along a platform. Truly Brutes in every sense!!

After a while trying to do a King Canute with replacing step boards swept away by descending BRUTES, the C&W eventually gave in and removed them from GUVs and CCTs. For similar BRUTE reasons, stations have stout rubber-faced horizontal boards at BRUTE platform height to protect glass and brickwork from damage by carelessly pushed ones. I wonder if Antone's realised that they're now unnecessary and, i.m.o. ugly.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

My late grand father use to drive the tractors that hauled BRUTE trolley's between points various at my local station, so am quite familiar with same..

 

[Rescars]

There must have been a huge number of them once upon a time. Have any survived, or have they gone the same way as all the parcels vans they travelled in?

 

[Gloster]

There must have been a huge number of them once upon a time. Have any survived, or have they gone the same way as all the parcels vans they travelled in?

According to Wikipedia there are examples at the National Railway Museum, the GWR one at Swindon, and the Keighley & Worth Valley and Great Central Railways. I would suspect that there are still a few tucked away in odd corners of the national network and on preserved lines as storage for oddments.

 

[820KDV]

With due acknowledgement to Robert Carroll and his BR Coaching Stock IO discussion group, here is a sample page from the 1969 Western Region Marshalling and Loading Instructions



The 3 figure codes are BR's zonal system for parcel sorting, so to take the fourth van, 301 is as stated Reading, 320 is Taunton, 303 Swindon and 330 Oxford.

The above is a very simple train, many run to several pages as vans are attached and detached, this is part of the 12.05 Penzance - Crewe, truly from a different age.

 

[Rescars]

According to Wikipedia there are examples at the National Railway Museum, the GWR one at Swindon, and the Keighley & Worth Valley and Great Central Railways. I would suspect that there are still a few tucked away in odd corners of the national network and on preserved lines as storage for oddments.

Hopefully grounded - without those lethal wheels!

 

[Merle Haggard]

There must have been a huge number of them once upon a time. Have any survived, or have they gone the same way as all the parcels vans they travelled in?

According to Wikipedia there are examples at the National Railway Museum, the GWR one at Swindon, and the Keighley & Worth Valley and Great Central Railways. I would suspect that there are still a few tucked away in odd corners of the national network and on preserved lines as storage for oddments.

I bought 4 at staff discount, cut the mesh sides off and stored bus engine/gearboxes on them when I was more into bus preservation. Very sturdy, easily cope with the weight (about 1 1/4 tons) and to move (on concrete).
When I bought them it was made clear that I could only have Mark 1 ones. The Mark numbers went up to at least 7; one difference being the brakes - later ones had hydraulic brakes. You may remember that staff, when applying the brake on the earlier designs with spring brakes, often wore thick gloves, and did it very warily. This was because the little handle snapped over-centre very sharply and you could cut your hand badly if it was caught by the jagged ends of loose mesh wire. Staff also had to pull not push BRUTES and used a lazy 'S' shaped bar hooked in the drawbar. This was the result of a number of incidents where passengers were knocked down by BRUTES being pushed because the 'pusher' couldn't see what was ahead (but carried on anyway) - remember, the weight when loaded could be equal to a small car

 

[Cowley]

With due acknowledgement to Robert Carroll and his BR Coaching Stock IO discussion group, here is a sample page from the 1969 Western Region Marshalling and Loading Instructions

View attachment 146476

The 3 figure codes are BR's zonal system for parcel sorting, so to take the fourth van, 301 is as stated Reading, 320 is Taunton, 303 Swindon and 330 Oxford.

The above is a very simple train, many run to several pages as vans are attached and detached, this is part of the 12.05 Penzance - Crewe, truly from a different age.

View attachment 146477

That’s very interesting, thanks for posting it.

Does anyone know when the Express Parcels writing started to appear on some of these vehicles by any chance?