Aberdeen to Fraserburgh and Peterhead: what would the technical challenges to reopening be?

[Highland37]

Leaving aside the political and economic case for this, what are the technical challenges to re-open this line?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I thought it was fairly straight and not curvaceous like some routes. So that is surely in its favor?

 

[Highland37]

I was in the Broch yesterday and it struck me what a difference rail would make.

Having looked at the map, there doesn't seem to be much build on the old line but from the outskirts of both towns to the old station locations might be a challenge.

 

[och aye]

Its a line IMO shouldn't have been removed at the time. However we are, we we are now. Sadly I think the cost for circa 40K people of around an estimated £700 million according to this article: https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/can-demand-new-railway-stations-scotland-be-met-1437575 seems rather expensive, unless the reopening of the railway would include things like the building of more homes/new jobs on the route.

According to this 2017 NesTrans report on Page 43, it looks like dualling the main road would actually would make journeys quicker than by taking rail. Obviously, you need to take into account factors like parking places, congestion and I guess the carbon footprint too.

https://www.nestrans.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/77919_Fraserburgh_Peterhead_to_Aberdeen-_Strategic_Transport_Study_-_Part_1_Appraisal_Report_Revised_V2.pdf

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How much did it cost to reopen Alloa station a few years back? (Granted that there was still a goods line in place which will have helped the business case). Probably a similar population in Alloa and in surrounding areas of Clackmannanshire.

 

[och aye]

How much did it cost to reopen Alloa station a few years back? (Granted that there was still a goods line in place which will have helped the business case). Probably a similar population in Alloa and in surrounding areas of Clackmannanshire.

The line was mainly built to relieve pressure on the Forth Bridge, carried freight to the Logannet Power station (which closed 8 years later!). Adding Alloa back onto the passenger network wasn't the primary reason the line was reinstated.

 

[yorkie]

Leaving aside the economics (as requested), there are some roads to cross, but perhaps the biggest challenge would be what to do at Maud?

Presumably you'd want people to make journeys between Aberdeen/Dyce and both Fraserburgh and Peterhead, but also between Peterhead and Fraserburgh?

If so you'd probably want to be splitting/joining at Maud, and also ensure that the times are such that connections could be made a Maud too.

That said, people wanting travel between the two towns would surely go by bus as that would be quicker.

I have cycled this route (mountain bikes recommended) It goes through remote countryside.

 

[oldchap]

The population would be a wee bit (though not a lot) more than 40k with larger commuter towns like Ellon, Mintlaw and Newmachar included.

Having walked the line many times, most of the alignment is clear, partly thanks to late closure (1979) and early conversion to footpath. I reckon the big issues are:

Termini in Peterhead and Fraserburgh built over so less central stations. Ellon station also built over and needing a Much less central location.
Largish stone bridges over Don and Ythan likely to need a lot of work.
Not sure but I suspect the AWPR has blocked the route.
Lots of small girder bridges over the Ugie and local burns unmaintained for 40 years and almost all minor road bridges removed, with some substantial cut back of embankments.
Y shape of route... do you try for a new build up the coast via Peterhead for speed and simplicity of operation but the difficulties of a claiming a brand new alignment , or keep the Y either branching at Maud for a slower route south from Peterhead , or branching at Ellon for a quicker route but almost no remaining alignment.

This is a line I'd dearly like to see back, having grown up there and being a regular visitor. More importantly it would help connect large commuter towns for Aberdeen back to the city. Certainly not without challenges though.

 

[snakeeyes]

The route under the AWPR has provision for double track alignement, i have ran up to Ellon quite a few times, i will look for some pictures.

 

[oldchap]

The route under the AWPR has provision for double track alignement, i have ran up to Ellon quite a few times, i will look for some pictures.

An unusual, but welcome, piece of forward planning!

 

[reb0118]

AWPR = Aberdeen Western Peripheral Ringroad? I'm just guessing but I suppose an Eastern Ringroad wouldn't have the same effect?.....

 

[oldchap]

Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route. The road is a distributor as much as a bypass and as the sea is to the East all the arterial routes it needed to connect with are North, West and South. There was a proposal for a route snaking up the East coast, but it was never taken very seriously... aside from missing most of the connections it also involved a ludicrously expensive tunnel under the harbour area.

 

[Bald Rick]

The greatest technical challenge would be to gain the necessary consent to build it, which requires that you prove the case for the line and that it I better than the alternatives. To that extent, you can’t separate out the economics.

As an aside, it would almost certainly be cheaper to build a line Dyce - Peterhead - Fraserburgh than to try and reopen the old line, and better for passengers too. However it’s hypothetical as I don’t suppose anyone has the thick end of £2bn to do it.

 

[Tobbes]

As an aside, it would almost certainly be cheaper to build a line Dyce - Peterhead - Fraserburgh than to try and reopen the old line, and better for passengers too. However it’s hypotheticsl a small I don’t suppose anyone has the thick end of £2bn to do it.

This is interesting - does getting to Ellon first make enough of a difference to make the old line cheaper - a new route from Dyce would presumably be faster to Aberdeen.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is interesting - does getting to Ellon first make enough of a difference to make the old line cheaper - a new route from Dyce would presumably be faster to Aberdeen.

Sorry I meant Dyce - Ellon - Peterhead - Fraserburgh. It would be about 8 miles shorter than a Y shaped route overall, quicker to Peterhead, and probably not much different to Fraserburgh. Almost certainly cheaper and a better businesss case. Albeit a business case still in the ‘very poor’ category.

 

[Tobbes]

Sorry I meant Dyce - Ellon - Peterhead - Fraserburgh. It would be about 8 miles shorter than a Y shaped route overall, quicker to Peterhead, and probably not much different to Fraserburgh. Almost certainly cheaper and a better businesss case. Albeit a business case still in the ‘very poor’ category.

Which is why I've wondered if it would be cheaper to go to Cruden Bay, Boddam and around the Peterhead ringroad and on to Fraserburgh, rather than recreating the Y. It was also make Boddam arguably the most unlikely branch in the UK to reopen.

 

[Highland37]

The greatest technical challenge would be to gain the necessary consent to build it, which requires that you prove the case for the line and that it I better than the alternatives. To that extent, you cnt superset out the economics.

As an aside, it would almost certainly be cheaper to build a line Dyce - Peterhead - Fraserburgh than to try and reopen the old line, and better for passengers too. However it’s hypothetical as I don’t suppose anyone has the thick end of £2bn to do it.

What do you mean by "consent" and "prove"? A "business case"?

 

[Bald Rick]

What do you mean by "consent" and "prove"? A "business case"?

Consent = all the necessary planning permissions that will authorise construction of the line. In this case probably by an act of Parliament.

To get that, the very first thing on the list is to demonstrate that it is in the public interest to deliver the project, and that it is better than potential reasonable alternatives to achieve the stated objectives.

The second thing on the list is to demonstrate that funding is reasonably expected to be provided to deliver the project.

 

[Highland37]

I don't think consent is going to be an issue on this line more so than anywhere else. Certainly easier than other areas.

What stated objectives are you referring to? Decarbonisation is a good one but buses do pretty well against rail there but don't cause much modal shift.

Funding is a political issue which can't be demonstrated. A government either decides to fund it or not.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think consent is going to be an issue on this line more so than anywhere else. Certainly easier than other areas.

What stated objectives are you referring to? Decarbonisation is a good one but buses do pretty well against rail there but don't cause much modal shift.

Funding is a political issue which can't be demonstrated. A government either decides to fund it or not.

Gaining consent is hard, anywhere. People don’t want to give up their land, nor have a new railway at the bottom of their back garden.

Stated objectives: that would be for whoever is proposing the new line. If it was me, then it would be something like “improve connectivity and journey times with public transport between Aberdeen and Peterhead / Fraserburgh”

On the funding point - precisely. You won’t get consent unless their is a clear expectation of getting that funding.

 

[Tobbes]

Gaining consent is hard, anywhere. People don’t want to give up their land, nor have a new railway at the bottom of their back garden.

Stated objectives: that would be for whoever is proposing the new line. If it was me, then it would be something like “improve connectivity and journey times with public transport between Aberdeen and Peterhead / Fraserburgh”

On the funding point - precisely. You won’t get consent unless their is a clear expectation of getting that funding.

How advanced is the planning to get the line as far as Ellon? GRIP (or whatever ScoGov call it) 2?

 

[Bald Rick]

No idea. I doubt if it is in GRIP at all.

 

[Highland37]

Gaining consent is hard, anywhere. People don’t want to give up their land, nor have a new railway at the bottom of their back garden.

Stated objectives: that would be for whoever is proposing the new line. If it was me, then it would be something like “improve connectivity and journey times with public transport between Aberdeen and Peterhead / Fraserburgh”

On the funding point - precisely. You won’t get consent unless their is a clear expectation of getting that funding.

? Who other than a public agency, with all the obligation they carry, will be proposing it. A politician can back it or a community set up a campaign, but it needs public sector clout.

Anyway, we are strolling off topic.