Accidentally used a 16-17 saver, and my railcard was expired

[sophlin]

okay hopefully this can help ease my mind. for some background context which could impact the outcome of the situation i’m in : some times in January 2024 i think on the 8th, i had travelled on the train, i did buy a ticket, but i could not show the ticket man the ticket because my mum had sent it to me on whatsapp and i had no wifi, this led to me receiving a letter from the train people and i had to pay a fine of like £120. that’s the background context.

i had a railcard for 16-17, but this had expired back in september 2023 since that’s when i turned 18, but i was not aware that it had expired. my mum had also bought a new railcard 16-25 in february 2024 after this situation im going to explain happened. just some more background context.

the following day the 9th of January 2024, i had bought a ticket on my trainline app, and i was unaware that i had the option on a 16-17 saver, so i had shown my ticket to the ticket man, he then asked to see my railcard so i showed him it and then saw that it has been expired since september. he told me to email the trainline explaining that i was unaware that my railcard was expired and so on, however i did not do that since i didn’t know the email for the train service.

its now May 7th 2024 and have just received letter explaining that i need to respond within 21 days explaining anything that i would like to be considered, otherwise further action will be taken. so i have replied to them via the email on the letter, i will show what i’ve sent.

i’m just slightly worried right now because they didn’t mention a penalty fare / fine within the letter like they did in the first letter i had recieved from the first encounter i had on the train, i hope that makes sense.

so yeah im worried because they haven’t given me that option within the letter this time. and im worried that i will be taken to court and put in prison or such, because if we’re considering the first situation that also happened, this may make it worse for me. i’m just really scared and worried. i’m only an 18 year old girl. i just need help or advice please

also on my email i sent to the trainline, i included proof that i did buy the ticket, alongside the proof of me buying a new railcard 16-25.

 

[methecooldude]

Can you upload a copy of any letters received with personal information redacted. Also, which train operator is this with?

 

[sophlin]

Can you upload a copy of any letters received with personal information redacted. Also, which train operator is this with?

i’m guessing it’s chiltern railways

 

[Snow1964]

Just to be clear, when you travelled on 8th January, you didn't buy the ticket, but someone else did (who knew you were 18) but they bought you a 16-17 railcard ticket, is that correct.

You then travelled following day, and bought another 16-17 railcard ticket.

Do you have a family app, or individual apps ?

The significance is is there one account with your travel, or multiple accounts with your travel, or even one app where others in family buy tickets (who might also not be eligible for 16-17 railcard). The advice will depend on who we are dealing with, and clarity on any travel history that might be stored on apps, and how many accounts they know about.

 

[sophlin]

yes on the 8th of january my mum had bought the ticket who knows i’m 18 and she was also the one who had bought me the 16-17 railcard

yes the following day i had bought a ticket on a 16-17 saver thing but this was not intentional

we have individual apps, my mum has her own trainline app, and i have my own

 

[Pushpit]

Well you are definitely not going to go to prison. Technically it could happen, it just never does. In the worst case scenario your crime is not likely to have a prison option. There is, however, a realistic risk of being fined by a court for not having a valid ticket, along with getting a criminal record, and doing it twice in two days isn't a good look. On the other hand the letter received via Chiltern has all the hallmarks of them wanting an out of court settlement, so long as you engage with the process fully.

It's likely to cost you around £200 or so, and you may need to pay this quickly, but this penalty would save you from a criminal record.

I take the point that this was unintentional but from the train company's perspective you simply evaded the fare - lots of people do that and these are the tactics that rail companies use to clamp down on it. We may not like these tactics but they are perfectly allowed to go down this route.

 

[sophlin]

Well you are definitely not going to go to prison. Technically it could happen, it just never does. In the worst case scenario your crime is not likely to have a prison option. There is, however, a realistic risk of being fined by a court for not having a valid ticket, along with getting a criminal record, and doing it twice in two days isn't a good look. On the other hand the letter received via Chiltern has all the hallmarks of them wanting an out of court settlement, so long as you engage with the process fully.

It's likely to cost you around £200 or so, and you may need to pay this quickly, but this penalty would save you from a criminal record.

I take the point that this was unintentional but from the train company's perspective you simply evaded the fare - lots of people do that and these are the tactics that rail companies use to clamp down on it. We may not like these tactics but they are perfectly allowed to go down this route.

i know it doesn’t help that it happened literally the following day after the first incident. i’m hoping it’ll just be a penalty fine because i’ll be happy to pay it and move on from the situation but £200 IS SO MUCH. thankyou and everyone else who responded i do appreciate it, ill keep you all updated once they respond

 

[Pushpit]

i know it doesn’t help that it happened literally the following day after the first incident. i’m hoping it’ll just be a penalty fine because i’ll be happy to pay it and move on from the situation but £200 IS SO MUCH. thankyou and everyone else who responded i do appreciate it, ill keep you all updated once they respond

Yes, I agree, my own view is that this is breaking a butterfly upon a wheel, to misquote Alexander Pope (via Jacob Rees-Mogg's late father). It's disproportionate and the rail companies only get away with it because they have an easy way to give people criminal records. But it's better than the alternative. I'm sorry you have to go through this at your age.

 

[sophlin]

Yes, I agree, my own view is that this is breaking a butterfly upon a wheel, to misquote Alexander Pope (via Jacob Rees-Mogg's late father). It's disproportionate and the rail companies only get away with it because they have an easy way to give people criminal records. But it's better than the alternative. I'm sorry you have to go through this at your age.

i mean it’s understandable that they have to do these things, but there is better ways to go about it. i barely make £140 a month, but i have my savings so it’s okay. it’s not fair, but that’s life for you

 

[Brissle Girl]

it’s not fair, but that’s life for you

Not fair? Bluntly, on the first occasion you knowingly boarded a train without a valid ticket. Regardless of the reason that's an offence. You followed it up the next day by presenting an invalid ticket. That's another offence. You said that you were unaware that your railcard had expired four months earlier, but also that you were not aware that you selected the 16-17 railcard option - if you were unaware it had expired then it seems counterintuitive to say that it was selected by accident.

I'm not sure how much slack you expect the railway to cut you for what at best is gross carelessness, and remember that the railway can't easily distinguish carelessness from deliberate fare avoidance. If it gave everyone the benefit of the doubt there would undoubtedly be a lot more fare evasion as word got around that the railway is a soft touch every time someone said it was a mistake.

 

[sophlin]

Not fair? Bluntly, on the first occasion you knowingly boarded a train without a valid ticket. Regardless of the reason that's an offence. You followed it up the next day by presenting an invalid ticket. That's another offence. You said that you were unaware that your railcard had expired four months earlier, but also that you were not aware that you selected the 16-17 railcard option - if you were unaware it had expired then it seems counterintuitive to say that it was selected by accident.

I'm not sure how much slack you expect the railway to cut you for what at best is gross carelessness, and remember that the railway can't easily distinguish carelessness from deliberate fare avoidance. If it gave everyone the benefit of the doubt there would undoubtedly be a lot more fare evasion as word got around that the railway is a soft touch every time someone said it was a mistake.

no, on the first occasion i boarded the train knowing that my mum had bought me a ticket and sent it to me on whatsapp, but when the ticket man asked me for my ticket, i was unable to show it due to there being no wifi. i could have screenshotted the ticket prior to boarding the train, but i’ve never had any issue with the wifi being down while on the train.

and i was completely unaware that my railcard had been expired because i had never been approached by a ticketman prior to the 2nd situation. and as for the 16-17 saved option, that was not applied intentionally? do you think that after the first encounter i had a day prior to the 2nd situation, that i would intentionally apply the 16-17 saver knowing that i could get fined or go to court for it? no. i did not do it intentionally, it was a mistake on my part which i have since then not done again.

i don’t expect the railway to give me any ‘slack’ i never once said that. gross carelessness? it was an honest mistake which i did not intentionally do. i’m only human, people make mistakes 24/7, and this was an honest mistake on my part.

i’ve said that i understand why they do what they do. id just rather there be a better option instead of fining people large amounts, and im sure many other people would agree with me.

you can have your opinion, thats totally fine, but i dont appreciate how you just attacked me or the way you went about with that message.

i’m facing the consequences of my actions and im accepting of that.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If you make a statement that your treatment is “not fair” then you shouldn’t be terribly surprised if someone challenges your opinion.

 

[sophlin]

If you make a statement that your treatment is “not fair” then you shouldn’t be terribly surprised if someone challenges your opinion.

i’m not surprised somebody challenged my opinion, if anything your more than welcome to say it. but there’s a difference between challenging somebody’s opinion respectively, and challenging somebody without respect.

 

[Titfield]

i’ve said that i understand why they do what they do. id just rather there be a better option instead of fining people large amounts, and im sure many other people would agree with me.

The question of the fairness / proportionality of the administration fee part of an out of court settlement and the practice of TOCS applying the anytime single (with no discounts or allowance for fares paid already) is frequently raised by posters on this forum.

Whilst not defending the practice of the TOCS the points raised in support of the TOCS include (1) the costs of investigating cases of suspected fare evasion (2) if the regime was less "punitive" it would further encourage fare evasion because there is some evidence that persistent fare evaders apply some form of risk:cost: benefit analysis.

I am sure that the TOCS would welcome a system that ensured (a) they received the appropriate fare from every passenger (b) the number of fare evaders reduced significantly.

Railcards (especially the 16-17 saver and 16-25 railcard) seem to make up a disproportionate number of issues on this forum.

Personally I think that the penalty fare system should be used more often in the first instance but also allow pfs to be raised retroactively if further wrong doing becomes known as a result of further checks being made.

The current methodology doesnt really reflect that with the growth of online booking so much more evidence is now available to TOCS. In the good old bad old days pre "tinternet" if someone "fiddled a ticket" then once they were out of the station to all intenets and purposes that was it. Nowadays even correct but unusual purchases on someones online account can be flagged up for investigation.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I'm bound to say that part of the reason for the confusions / mistakes / errors that turn up here (such as this one) seems to relate to the "vagaries" of electronic ticketing. Wifi going down, "accidentally" selecting a railcard discount for a card you don't have, and so on. Maybe people who realise that they sometimes make mistakes, and worry that the railway doesn't accept they really are mistakes, should simply use physical tickets where what you're buying is a bit more obvious and mistakes less likely.

Something the enquirer has said puzzles me. If you meant what you said, when you said, "...on my email i sent to the trainline, i included proof that i did buy the ticket, alongside the proof of me buying a new railcard 16-25". Did you really send this to trainline rather than to the rail company who're accusing you? Trainline are a private ticket company - who make money by acting as an (unnecessary, many would say) intermediary between buyer and seller and taking a percentage; they're not part of the railway system and have nothing to do with any offence you're accused of (apart from giving information about your ticket purchase history to the rail companies if asked).

 

[sophlin]

that is true with buying a physical ticket to avoid mistakes like these happening. but since those two situations happened in january, i’ve made sure that i’ve selected the correct options and so on.

and what i meant by the trainline email, i had sent the email to the email that was given within the letter.