Advantages and Disadvantages of driverless trains?

[Up_Tilt_390]

I’m confused as to why you made the comment then really. If you don’t really know much about aviation then why make a comment about the extent of automation and pilot control if you don’t really know? I can assure you in aviation automation is used to assist pilot workload.

My apologies, but to be truthful I do not think I have an answer that will satisfy your question very much.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Advantages: Cheaper to run, proven tech, impecable saftey record (look at the DLR 3 incidents 1 was a terrorist attack the other 2 happened while the trains were under human control)

Disadvantages: That time everything will go balls-up, has anyone tested what would happen if someone hacked & gained access to the control systems?, job losses

 

[irish_rail]

Advantages: Cheaper to run, proven tech, impecable saftey record (look at the DLR 3 incidents 1 was a terrorist attack the other 2 happened while the trains were under human control)

Disadvantages: That time everything will go balls-up, has anyone tested what would happen if someone hacked & gained access to the control systems?, job losses

Ummm impeccable safety record?? Wasn't there a fatal crash in Germany a few years back when a driverless train still on trials collided with a vehicle ?

 

[JamesT]

Ummm impeccable safety record?? Wasn't there a fatal crash in Germany a few years back when a driverless train still on trials collided with a vehicle ?

Assuming that's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathen_train_collision the verdict was it was human error allowing the train to proceed whilst the maintenance vehicle was still on the track.

 

[philthetube]

This one is easy. Rail track workers will wear RFID beacons/garments. Sheep and cows will not. The military have been using this to detect friendly/hostile aircraft for years.

As for stopping in time, probably won't but new trains will have a host of radar and laser sensors to give a real time update of obstacles.

The train and it's new software can keep up, and can probably make up it's own mind to stop if needed, but the present GSM rail telecom system won't. It will have to be LTE or fibre to cabinet if you want this baby stopped remotely.

I assume that RFID tags will alert the train that the object concerned is a member of staff but how will it know that the member has seen the train, or has not collapsed or fallen and been injured, you only need to look through raib reports to know how many near misses there are involving track workers

 

[ComUtoR]

What is the range on these RFID tags and what is the stopping distance at 60mph for a train ?

 

[3141]

I imagine that after trains are driverless for a while people will come around because of how it simply works. In fact, the DLR has probably removed most people's uneasiness by now.

When I was young, most lifts on the Underground and in department stores had a human operator, who, in the stores, called out "Going up" or "Going down" at each floor. Most people have now got over any fears about the mistakes an automatic lift might make and can interpret a downward- or upward-facing arrow to work out which way the lift is going.

 

[otomous]

When I was young, most lifts on the Underground and in department stores had a human operator, who, in the stores, called out "Going up" or "Going down" at each floor. Most people have now got over any fears about the mistakes an automatic lift might make and can interpret a downward- or upward-facing arrow to work out which way the lift is going.

Til it gets stuck

You can’t lose the human presence from a long distance train

 

[Dave1987]

My apologies, but to be truthful I do not think I have an answer that will satisfy your question very much.

You might want to use analogies of things you understand a bit more.

 

[Dave1987]

Advantages: Cheaper to run, proven tech, impecable saftey record (look at the DLR 3 incidents 1 was a terrorist attack the other 2 happened while the trains were under human control)

Disadvantages: That time everything will go balls-up, has anyone tested what would happen if someone hacked & gained access to the control systems?, job losses

There would not be any reductions in costs. In fact I would suggest costs would rise.

 

[GB]

As for stopping in time, probably won't but new trains will have a host of radar and laser sensors to give a real time update of obstacles.

.

Theres me thinking RADAR and LASERs operate on a line of sight bases. How do they cope with the curving and undulating nature of railway track, lineside structures, bridges, tunnels etc etc.

 

[ComUtoR]

Theres me thinking RADAR and LASERs operate on a line of sight bases. How do they cope with the curving and undulating nature of railway track, lineside structures, bridges, tunnels etc etc.

Fixed mirrors.

 

[GB]

...and that will work will it?

 

[ComUtoR]

Of course, lazors bounce off mirrors. That should solve the curvature issues.

 

[GB]

Do you understand how precise the mirror has to be in order to reflect the laser to exactly the right point. Do you think you would get any where near this precision on a moving train? Do you think the alignment of the mirrors will stay in exactly the same place all of the time. What happens to the laser beam as the train gets closer to the mirror while entering the curve. What happens if the beam is cut by falling foliage or a small animal?

 

[Spod]

Static monitoring devices attached to fixed structures can monitor even when a train's three miles away round a bend. Might actually get enough warning to stop in time!

 

[whhistle]

Not to mention, computers won't know whether there is a person on the line or not.

Low speed "sight" can be achieved though. I wonder what the statistics are of trains that are travelling over 50mph that do stop before hitting something/someone. If it's practically none, it wouldn't matter whether there's a driver or not.

there's the psychological effect as well for passengers.

That's a red herring as people would board regardless I bet.
I mean, I never see the airline pilot but I still get on the plane. Plus, in these dark times, many cabs are pretty much black anyway.
On a side note, I did a poll once asking if mobile phones were found to cause brain cancer, would you still continue to use yours? The overwhelming answer was still yes.

There would be huge resistance from drivers, of course, but like any industry, it's time for drivers to accept and move on to another role NOW or quit.
Saying that though, it'll be 20+ years until it's properly rolled out. But it's coming, whether drivers like it or not.

 

[Dougal2345]

Theres me thinking RADAR and LASERs operate on a line of sight bases. How do they cope with the curving and undulating nature of railway track, lineside structures, bridges, tunnels etc etc.

Can a human driver see round corners then?

I would imagine a driverless train will also have infrared night vision, which will give it a big advantage in seeing people and animals on the line...

 

[GB]

Drivers can see into and partially around corners better than a fixed straight laser can yes.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And what happens when the mirrors get wet with rain, gets dirty or in direct line of sight of the sun (as it moves across the sky)? And any physical obstructions such as falling leaves, build-up of mud/snow etc?

 

[Dougal2345]

And what happens when the mirrors get wet with rain, gets dirty or in direct line of sight of the sun (as it moves across the sky)? And any physical obstructions such as falling leaves, build-up of mud/snow etc?

I think we're rather drifting away from the point with all this talk of mirrors.

The fact is that, much as I admire drivers, they don't have any supernatural ability to see around corners.

And, as others have already pointed out earlier in the thread, there's no reason why a self-driving train's ability to 'see' is limited to looking out from the front of a train, as a driver's is - although I see no reason why, given time, even just that won't be a great improvement in safety over the current situation.

In the future a train will 'see' not just from its 'cab', but through a whole network of lineside cameras - so it really will be able to see around corners, and for miles ahead, stopping safely before colliding with an obstruction in a way that's impossible at the moment...

 

[lammergeier]

(Snip)... it's time for drivers to accept and move on to another role NOW or quit.
Saying that though, it'll be 20+ years until it's properly rolled out. But it's coming, whether drivers like it or not.

NOW or 20+ years? Make up your mind!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I very, very much doubt a single current driver will be made redundant due to this. It'll be so slow and progressive that it will be a case of recruitment slowly drying up.

And because of how British people tend to behave when left alone, I would be amazed if it did not give rise to the renaissance of the guard.

Indeed, I think "guard only operation" is likely to be the modus operandi on branch lines in 50 years' time, assuming there still are any.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There would not be any reductions in costs. In fact I would suggest costs would rise.

Why do you think that?

Do you also think lift operators should return? Telephone operators? Drivers on those airport transit thingies (which are basically horizontal lifts)?

 

[Raul_Duke]

There would be huge resistance from drivers, of course, but like any industry, it's time for drivers to accept and move on to another role NOW or quit.
Saying that though, it'll be 20+ years until it's properly rolled out. But it's coming, whether drivers like it or not.

When we stop running 40 year old diesel trains that use relays and have an electronics Cubicle the size of a small car, then I’ll start looking.

I would respectfully suggest, with the greatest possible respect, that you are talking from other than your mouth...

 

[Dougal2345]

When we stop running 40 year old diesel trains that use relays and have an electronics Cubicle the size of a small car, then I’ll start looking.

Out of interest, does anyone have a rough idea of the percentage of trains currently in service that are 'drive by wire' as it were - that is, where without too much difficulty someone could fit a kind of glorified USB socket into which a control panel could be plugged [or a robot driver could be attached, for that matter] and the train driven?

 

[tsr]

Drivers on those airport transit thingies (which are basically horizontal lifts)?

Those are mostly proper trains, just remotely controlled and monitored. Very much not lifts, although it has to be acknowledged that some lifts are starting to become more complex and merge with the concept of a transit system around large buildings.

To take an example, Gatwick's inter-terminal shuttle has, as far as I know, a dedicated controller whenever it is open, and is monitored remotely for issues during dispatch and general running. There are also numerous overnight testing and monitoring sessions.

 

[al.currie93]

I'm not a driver so don't have any vested interest but as a human race we have to decide how much automation we want in life generally. Over the next 100 years we could automate everything (including accountants!) as AI gets better, but would that be a good thing? If uncontrolled it could lead to many millions around the world without jobs or anyway of eating, and all the money and control in the global computing/automation providers, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Siemens etc.... A more unstable world!

I very much agree with this statement - I feel that we really do need to actually think how good it would be to automate everything. I personally don't believe that the 'automated utopia' will ever be realised... What would happen in a world with 60% unemployment due to automation?

A point for discussion, sorry if it's already been covered - how easy would it be to safely dispatch a driverless (an unstaffed) train from an unstaffed station, without being certain that there was no-one trying to get on last minute, no-one was stuck in the doors (which can happen even with door sensors - http://metro.co.uk/2017/08/02/passe...n-left-with-her-hand-trapped-in-door-6823736/ - unless Turbos don't have door sensors) and other potential issues?

Would it be possible with technology? Or would it require staff at every station or still require all trains to be staffed?

 

[Dougal2345]

I very much agree with this statement - I feel that we really do need to actually think how good it would be to automate everything. I personally don't believe that the 'automated utopia' will ever be realised... What would happen in a world with 60% unemployment due to automation?

Well there is a lot of talk about this at the moment - the current idea seems to be that everyone should receive a 'basic salary' with none of the hoops that have to be jumped through to get benefits at the moment...

A point for discussion, sorry if it's already been covered - how easy would it be to safely dispatch a driverless (an unstaffed) train from an unstaffed station, without being certain that there was no-one trying to get on last minute, no-one was stuck in the doors [...]Would it be possible with technology? Or would it require staff at every station or still require all trains to be staffed?

That really depends on how good the technology is. At the moment, the best that can be managed is to have a (human) guard looking out for these things. How good will AI image recognition get? In the long term, the sky's the limit. Soon a computer will be able to work out that something is wrong when it sees someone stuck in a door - there's absolutely no doubt that that day will come. Or maybe it has already.

 

[Dave1987]

Why do you think that?

Do you also think lift operators should return? Telephone operators? Drivers on those airport transit thingies (which are basically horizontal lifts)?

The maintenance costs will be huge.