Anti-social behaviour on DOO services - what can be done?

[Mike395]

After witnessing a few clear examples of anti-social behaviour by a select few people on my train home this evening (including, but not limited to, smoking, shouting, drinking & using the table as an ashtray) it's made me think - is there anything more that can be realistically done to prevent this sort of thing happening, short of bringing back a guard? It later emerged they were also ticket-less, but again, nothing could be done due to no barrier staff at the destination station.

Also, on a slight tangent, it would also be interesting to hear how others have dealt with such behaviour

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Although you have stated 'short of a guard' I think the solution for this has to be the return of a guard or similar figure.

 

[O L Leigh]

You don't know it's happening unless someone comes up to the window to tell you. But even then, what can you do? You ask them not to do it but how do you enforce it?

Did no-one say anything to them? At least asking them not to smoke?

O L Leigh

 

[Temple Meads]

Did no-one say anything to them? At least asking them not to smoke?

Unfortunately people feel intimidated by the sort of people who indulge in this sort of behaviour, and after the incident where the RPI was stabbed on a c2c train I don't particularly blame them.

 

[NSE]

There's not much you can do in all honesty :/ if you happen to hear their final destination and if you alight at a busy station with time to tell staff there, they might be able to have people waiting.
Depending on the area of the country I might say something, round here in London I'd move carriage and keep my mouth shut, not worth the hassle, but say home in Cambridge where people know more people locally, I'd be more inclined to maybe say something once, but after that, I wouldn't risk it. In this day and age, I'd rather put up with some smoke than get stabbed.

 

[maniacmartin]

You could discretely call the BTP who might be interested in meeting them at the next station, but on the Overground this could be difficult to orchestrate given the frequency of stations at which they might unexpectedly alight.

 

[Butts]

You could discretely call the BTP who might be interested in meeting them at the next station, but on the Overground this could be difficult to orchestrate given the frequency of stations at which they might unexpectedly alight.

Why not hit the "emergency stop" button then the driver will have to deal with it like they do on a bus !!

 

[maniacmartin]

I was under the impression that you could be prosecuted for using the Emergency Stop button when it isn't an emergency. Don't they have a "Penalty for improper use" or similar on them?

 

[12CSVT]

I was under the impression that you could be prosecuted for using the Emergency Stop button when it isn't an emergency. Don't they have a "Penalty for improper use" or similar on them?

I think the fact that a bunch of yobs are causing trouble on the train does constitute an emergency which is best dealt with by BTP. If they constantly get away with the sort of behaviour described by the OP then is it a distinct possibility that they might resort to violence if their behaviour is challenged (whether by another passenger or by railway staff).

 

[bronzeonion]

Bring back a guard, How trains should be run!

Simply having a guard will usually put off people from doing things like that, only the hardcore idiots will carry on and in that case the guard can easily arrange for BTP to be waiting at the next station.

 

[68000]

Only if the Gaurd is visible during the service, no point in bringing back the guard if all he does is operate the doors and sit in the rear cab between times

All DOO services I have been on [Scotland] has a ticket examiner walking through the train (unless the train is packed like sardines)

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure a guard should have to deal with yobs on his/her own, but they should be able to summon BTP and know they will be capable and willing to respond.

The problem is they're spread quite thin.

You might see BTP at stations at night, but usually the aim is to just get people on trains and not care too much about what happens then. I wonder why BTP don't travel more on trains at night to deal with such behaviour?

London Overground seem to have security teams. I wonder how they deal with things? Do they get involved or simply report to the police? Also, does their presence alone reduce incidents in the first place?

 

[O L Leigh]

You think BTP will come out to sort out people smoking, drinking or shouting...? This really is low-level stuff. I certainly wouldn't thank you for using the PASSCOM just for that.

If it offends you so much, move elsewhere in the train or have a word with them. By all means let the traincrew know, but I think you're imagining things are a bit more dangerous than perhaps they really are. In my experience they're more likely to just say "Yeah, sorry" and then just carry on when your back is turned.

O L Leigh

 

[Mojo]

If nobody is informed of the issues; then nothing would ever get done.

Some companies have tactical deployment teams, or similar, which can be deployed to hotspot areas, alongside the BTP. I don't think it's an issue unique to DOO trains; guards on trains are equally likely to want to avoid conflict due to training issued by companies to this effect.

 

[northwichcat]

on my train home this evening

When you say this evening, what kind of time are you referring to?

On Northern Rail and TPE services which do have guards you rarely see them except when you're boarding and alighting after around 9pm.

 

[jopsuk]

If you're on a GA train, you could (discreetly) use the shop-a-fare-dodger system (text train and carriage details to 60006)- if there's an RPI team available they'll try to intercept the train.

 

[Mike395]

When you say this evening, what kind of time are you referring to?

On Northern Rail and TPE services which do have guards you rarely see them except when you're boarding and alighting after around 9pm.

This was around 10:30pm admittedly - but I think the presence of a guard - whether he/she is actively walking through the train or not, would act as a considerable deterrent.

 

[Kilted_Scot]

Up here on DOO's there are ticket examiners who patrol the train at all times unless for some reason there is a staff shortage etc

 

[3141]

Unless someone has reliable statistics showing that incidents such as those described are significantly more frequent on DOO trains my guess is that having a guard on the train doesn't make much difference.

About six years ago (before there were automatic ticket barriers at Waterloo and Basingstoke) I was travelling home late one evening (say about 10.45) and when the guard/ticket inspector came into the carriage there was a young woman without a ticket who refused to pay. Another passenger offered to help out with the payment but she still refused. I had a word with the guard and he said it was no use phoning ahead to Basingstoke, where the woman was due to get off, because no BTP would be available to deal with her.

On another occasion, late on a Saturday night, the guard announced that one or more passengers were smoking and they should stop. According to his announcement they were in the second carriage, which is where I was. I didn't actually see them, and the guard didn't appear either.

I recount these incidents to illustrate that you can have guards and RPIs on board, but as other posters have said it's another matter entirely whether they can actually do anything about a problem passenger.

 

[HH]

If it's a regular problem the TOC could pay BTP a bit extra to have resource available, or like they used to around Reading, have large, ex-army security guards on the worst trains.

If it's just an occasional incident though, very hard to cover.

 

[ex-railwayman]

If it's a regular problem the TOC could pay BTP a bit extra

I don't think the Shareholders would agree, they don't want their hard earned investments been squallied on hand-holding rowdy yobbos by a few police officers, perish the thought........

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[jon0844]

Surely any shareholder with a brain will realise that if there's trouble, it increases other costs - cleaning trains, fixing damage to property, lost revenue as people stop travelling etc?

 

[GadgetMan]

Anyone who thinks having BTP available to deal with these yobs will make an ounce of difference is mistaken. These retards usually have a long list of offences already recorded on their Criminal history and being dealt with by the law is just a very slight inconvenience. Getting fined is irrelevant as they won't pay or make token contributions of a few pence a week or something similar. Going to court is also nothing more than something else to brag about, and getting imprisoned is an opportunity to spend more time inside with like minded individuals and making new friends.

The downhill spiral just continues. I've lost count of the number of people I have had to confront due to antisocial behaviour on trains where they just laugh when I mention the BTP would be called and they face being prosecuted. So what? is usually their response.

 

[jon0844]

I don't like the fact that being inside allows you access to drugs and other criminals to discuss future crimes/techniques, but at least they're inside. Therefore, I'm all for giving them a bit more time inside - even if it's like a holiday camp.

Dishing out fines that won't be paid, or giving one more slap on the wrist helps nobody except the do-gooders who live in faith that being nice to them will make them good. It might to some, but usually that's from a short sharp shock in the first place - the repeat offenders are usually a lost cause and at some point must be treated as such.

 

[michael769]

Scotrail have a franchise requirement to have a 2nd member of staff on all DOO trains unless there is a valid operational reason (typically where the Ticket Examiner misses the service due to his prior train being delayed) for it to be impossible.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Although many of the scenarios may be annoying (like smoking, fare evasion etc) few are a threat to your personal safety so most of us tend to put up with them. The alternative is to confront people about their behaviour and however nice you try to be about it that may well escalate the situation in to one where your personal safety may end up at risk. You could always train as ninja to enhance your survival prospects I suppose.

 

[ivanhoe]

Whilst traveling on a LM service today I noticed a female guard confront two lads who clearly were trying to avoid payment. She dealt with situation firmly and escorted the two lads off the next stop. She apologized to passengers for a very slight delay. She was brilliant and I wish all of her colleagues were as visible and forthright.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Surely any shareholder with a brain will realise that if there's trouble, it increases other costs - cleaning trains, fixing damage to property, lost revenue as people stop travelling etc?

Surely any shareholder with a brain would check what the other costs had been over the last year or two compared with how much it costs to hire additional staff?

 

[DarloRich]

Challenge them if they refuse to moderate their behaviour call the police. People need to stand up for themselves more instead of being passive victims. I have found most often if you ask people to stop they will.

 

[Mike395]

Challenge them if they refuse to moderate their behaviour call the police. People need to stand up for themselves more instead of being passive victims. I have found most often if you ask people to stop they will.

I agree in a lot of cases, but I personally won't approach anyone who is obviously intoxicated if I'm on my own (especially if there's a few of them), as it's not worth the risk.