ASLEF strikes W/c 6th May

[Silverlinky]

I'm not really sure how drivers can be much more productive. Modernisation and reform is a total misnomer. When I drive a busy Plymouth to London train, my "fee" is say 150 quid. On that train is 20k worth of revenue. Yes, modernisation and reform is needed, but not from the driving (or other staff) grades.


There is a massive perception that if you book a weekend break to xyz that you may end up being caught out. On this occasion it is workers being targeted, but next time it may be a bank holiday or weekend. It's all about perception. As long as it is perceived there is a chance strikes may disrupt your plans, people are less likely to make those plans in the first place.

There is plenty more which could be done with regards to modernisation and reform. Anything from Sundays in the working week to route learning norms. At my TOC drivers accepted a payment to be given tablets to use, but don't use them as no agreement was reached on what they would be used for! Drivers still sign for and collect paper notices in book form every week, still fill in forms to book leave, still book on with a TCS, get given a day off to attend a meeting about not attending work due to sickness. DOO/DCO is still on the wish list of many tocs. Cross cover between depots, allowing depot staff to prepare units for service.

Of course some TOC's may have all or some of the above and these are just examples specific to the depot I work at, others will have their own examples i'm sure.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a massive perception that if you book a weekend break to xyz that you may end up being caught out.

For a small percent of the population, perhaps. But most people drive, so don’t even know, let alone worry about it.

 

[baz962]

But what does that achieve?

We all know there's going to be a General Election soon, and assuming Sir Keir Starmer isn't outed as an alien from the planet Zonk, I think its safe to assume Labour will be in government before the end of the year. Why not just suspend the action, create some goodwill with passengers, and re-start negotiations at that stage?

Public consciousness will damage the railway long-term. I've lost count of the number of people who have pulled a face over the years when I've suggested travelling by train. Does maintaining public consciousness of strike action help? Passenger consciousness? Well, the work colleagues I speak to have had there lives affected quite negatively during periods of disruption (one arrived at work in tears one particular day last year after being stuck at Huyton station for almost three hours during an overtime ban last year - she'd had enough, it was the straw that broke the camels back and she left, taking with her 20 years experience that could never be replaced). And for what? Nothing really. I'll let you guess what other commuting colleagues think.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides. I'm a union member too and I can see your argument, but I'm afraid the strategy now is wrong.

The fact that the ex colleague wasn't stuck during a strike but an overtime ban says it all. Even if we weren't striking she would have been inconvenienced. But I guess people think we aren't allowed days off and we should work them too . It's overtime and sometimes we would rather be with friends and family.

And who is going to train new drivers if old ones are all fired as per Reagan idea?

Not even remotely happening IMHO. Reagan had several thousand supervisors and military and non strikers to step in for a shade over ten thousand air traffic controllers. ASLEF has over twenty thousand drivers and a handful of managers that might drive.

And who is going to train new drivers if old ones are all fired as per Reagan idea?

 

[Krokodil]

A friend is supposed to be travelling from Windermere to Holyhead on a SailRail ticket on Wednesday 8th, when Avanti will be striking. Would anyone like to predict what level of "emergency timetable" they will offer from Oxenholme to Warrington? What have they done in the past? She does have the option of TPE Oxenholme to Manchester, then TFW Manchester to Holyhead. Does anyone know what the terms of SailRail are, i.e. could she try to get a seat reservation on that train now? (Boat is 1410.)

Don't count on any emergency timetable from Avanti. Assume that nothing will run. Their best bet is to head for Manchester Piccadilly and change there for TfW (I say Piccadilly rather than Oxford Road because most of the passengers from the airport will leave there and it gives them a better chance of boarding). TfW don't do seat reservations, they'd have to ask at a booking office for a reservation with TPE. The clerk should understand the circumstances. I'd aim for the 07:09 just to be on the safe side, the 08:13 allows an 18 minute connection at Man Picc which in any other circumstances I'd be happy with, but I wouldn't want to chance it on a strike day with a ferry to catch.

As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. The RDG and DfT are a bunch of dishonourable charlatans but it doesn't change the fact that no one cares about these strikes anymore and they are achieving nothing - people just shrug their shoulders and work around them. They are simply not going to re-open these negotiations until the risible offer is put to members (which rightly isn't going to happen). So the ASLEF EC either need to dramatically escalate the action which will obviously hit some members hard financially or wait until after the election. What we have at the moment is the worst of all worlds.

It worked for RMT. The government dug their heels in thinking that the public narrative would be "look at these pesky unions, this is why we don't want Labour because there would be strikes all of the time". Instead they finally realised that the public narrative was "this country isn't functioning under the Tories" and they rolled over.

I'm surprised by what seems to be a fair few people thinking that Labour will resolve this quickly, or even at all. Their announcements and proposed policies are all about being safe and that's not going to change when in government. They are terrified of being accused of mismanaging the economy and it's an incredibly easy win for the Tories to say that Labour have caved in to the unions' demands. Look at how they talk about NHS staff as if they're shirkers and not doing enough. Can't see them deciding to do a deal with train drivers.

Labour don't have to offer any more money than the Tories have. They just have to cut the strings, most of which were of dubious financial value and only designed to attack the staff.

There is plenty more which could be done with regards to modernisation and reform. Anything from Sundays in the working week to route learning norms. At my TOC drivers accepted a payment to be given tablets to use, but don't use them as no agreement was reached on what they would be used for! Drivers still sign for and collect paper notices in book form every week, still fill in forms to book leave, still book on with a TCS, get given a day off to attend a meeting about not attending work due to sickness. DOO/DCO is still on the wish list of many tocs. Cross cover between depots, allowing depot staff to prepare units for service.

Of course some TOC's may have all or some of the above and these are just examples specific to the depot I work at, others will have their own examples i'm sure.

The government likes to refer to "modernisation", yet in this era when work-life balance is considered important they chuck in conditions like "no rolling/fixed rest day patterns" or "full weeks of spare with unlimited movement" which take things back in time to the bad old days. They also include things they don't really understand, like "no staff-side involvement in rostering", despite the fact that the current system works and that management don't want to be given the task of writing the base roster.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

And who is going to train new drivers if old ones are all fired as per Reagan idea?

I’m not advocating the sacking of anyone, ok, but… at some point in history, presumably there weren’t any “trained” drivers as trains hadn’t previously existed, so everyone was making it up as they went along in the early days? When did it become so formalised?

Actually, another thought I sometimes have: who trains the trainers when there’s a new train? Do the manufacturers do it? I’m guessing someone must still be the first person to have to drive a train and then pass that knowledge on to others?

*yes, I know there’s more to it than just driving!

 

[baz962]

I’m not advocating the sacking of anyone, ok, but… at some point in history, presumably there weren’t any “trained” drivers as trains hadn’t previously existed, so everyone was making it up as they went along in the early days? When did it become so formalised?

Actually, another thought I sometimes have: who trains the trainers when there’s a new train? Do the manufacturers do it? I’m guessing someone must still be the first person to have to drive a train and then pass that knowledge on to others?

*yes, I know there’s more to it than just driving!

Probably in the early days when many trains didn't have anywhere near the equipment and went slow. I mean if I showed someone how to drive a train and not much else they could probably do it, but to not have an incident would require a very much slower speed as you can't drive on site.

 

[Starmill]

Remember not all train operators are included in the dispute. If TfW Rail and Merseyrail were the only operators operating in the North West, it would be hell for some TfW Rail crews as everyone crams on 2 and 3 carriage trains.

It wouldn't make that much difference because TfW have decided to withdraw between Warrington Bank Quay and Manchester Airport on some strike days, and they make stops at Stockport and Wilmslow restricted towards Manchester.

 

[whoosh]

The government likes to refer to "modernisation", yet in this era when work-life balance is considered important they chuck in conditions like "no rolling/fixed rest day patterns" or "full weeks of spare with unlimited movement" which take things back in time to the bad old days.

Yes, and the job is supposed to appeal to women these days. Women are more often the primary carers for children. Quite how anyone is supposed to arrange childcare around finding out what days off they've got and whether they're mornings, afternoons or nights next week, with only a few days notice I don't know!

Saying, "A woman can drive a train just as well as a man," but then throwing in the most flexible and un-family friendly, massively variable rostering, isn't really committing to the idea beyond lip service, and isn't going to get women on board and keep them.

 

[Crepello]

Inopportune timing for me, having arranged to be in touring UK that week on a BritRail Pass; probably my last opportunity due to declining health.

Can I ask: What degree of disruption is usual for TOCs the one day immediately before and after they're striking? And what % of services are normally cancelled when TOCs are working but with overtime bans?

I know the question's broad; would greatly appreciate any guidance that may be offered (or direction to existing discussions to this end) - many thanks in advance.

 

[Killingworth]

Part of the difficulty here is that a large majority of our fellow citizens either never use the railway at all or only a few times a year. The majority on this forum either work (or worked) in the railway industry or have varying degrees of enthusiasm and interest in it. Most of my friends don't share my deep interest. They don't understand the details.

Local social media sometimes reports disruptions on the railway. The general view hereabouts seems to be that it's expensive and unreliable, to be avoided whenever possible. A 9 day blockade on my local route in March is to be followed by 5 days this month with strike days from different operators on top - and a route diversion due to land slip until further notice. Cancellations for a variety of reasons add more frustration.

I had to drive to Manchester Airport last month for a meeting, on Saturday I'll have to take a different route to Leeds - neither times due to strike action but Joe Public tends to lump all these disruptions together. Things like trespassers, fatalities, stolen signal cabling, floods, catenary down, and horn not working (one reason recently given).

And yet I also detect a desire to use the railway more, if only it could be trusted to run, even when overcrowded and at high prices. The way to encourage loosening of purse strings is to grow the fare income pot. Ever greater subsidies, however and to whoever they're provided, will no more be favoured by Labour than the Tories. By the time they get into power and start dealing with things another year's catching up will be needed.

Do I see a settlement before then? It's almost 30 years since I was actively involved with my union. I'd like to think we wouldn't have run our heads into such a noose, but now there, what then? It would be very hard to back down - and so it will be for any government. So in all probability it will continue, damaging morale, hacking off passengers, and at the very least inconveniencing those taking the action. That may be quite painful for a relatively small proportion who are taking action in critical areas of the business.

In the meantime it's very likely that much non essential capital expenditure will be further delayed. Make what you have last longer, make do with fewer carriages, don't improve track line speed, defer more electrification - e.g. there's no need to hurry with those wires to Sheffield, or those new trains to use them!!

In days gone by such matters were referred to ACAS. What happened to them in all this? https://www.acas.org.uk/collective-conciliation

 

[manmikey]

Makes you wonder why ASLEF are helping the TOCS by agreeing rest working whilst in dispute.

Very strange strategy.

At my TOC RDW agreements are usually 6 to 12 months, the agreement allows the company to plan for training in exchange for guaranteing a certain number of drivers a lieu day off on any given day. (we get 7 lieu days which are days off in lieu of bank holidays we don't get bank holidays off they are part of the working week for front line rail workers)
At my depot we have 4 guaranteed lieu days Monday to Friday and 3 on a Saturday. It's not in ASLEF members best interests to use the free day agreement as a weapon, even as part of a larger dispispute, those guaranteed days off are precious in a 24x7 industry.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s a shame but it must be done. Would rather miss a trip, than watch these amazing people loose their pay and conditions

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, could you clarify please?

That reminds me of the miners' strike in 1974. The incoming Labour government gave the miners all they wanted, and look what happened to inflation!

I despise the present Tory government, but they are not wrong about everything. The railways are massively subsidised by the taxpayer (this has increased massively under the botched privatisation), and there may not be a huge amount of public sympathy for people already being paid £60K or so a year. There is no such thing as a job for life these days.

Very fair and balanced perspective; I respect that and agree.

 

[Snow1964]

You seriously don't think Labour would do a deal, say 4 percent no strings for train drivers? Why not?

My argument (and many others too), is not they won't do a deal, just don't expect it immediately they get in power. Might be 3-6 months on.

Assuming any deal is in Spring (or early summer) 2025 that will be it for deals until 2026. Don't go dreaming of need another deal to cover missing years.

Anybody can say things like only pay rise in 4 years, but can just as easily quote total pay rise vs inflation over 7 years, or 10 years or 15 years etc. very easy to make train drivers look greedy in publics eyes, which is why the idea of trying to get public sympathy has failed and the bans and strikes are just seen as irritating nuisance (especially as they never achieve anything)

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Have any of the people posting here castigating train drivers not had a payrise since 2019, out of interest?

 

[Teddyward]

(especially as they never achieve anything)

My T&Cs have not changed. That is an achievement.

 

[Snow1964]

Have any of the people posting here castigating train drivers not had a payrise since 2019, out of interest?

I will own up for starters as a yes

Made redundant in 2014
Started new job early 2015, one pay rise 2017
Short /part time then furlough on part pay 2020
Made redundant 2022 as company ran out of cash, as others weren't paying bills during covid
New job, never had pay rise in it.


Drivers are in very good place, no redundancy, no being put on short time or reduced pay, no zero opportunity for overtime, and a state funder bailing out the industry so can't go into liquidation

 

[Bantamzen]

Have any of the people posting here castigating train drivers not had a payrise since 2019, out of interest?

Well technically ASLEF have had an offer on the table since 2022, and if at some point a resolution is found this would be backdated to then. So actually what your question should be is did anyone not get a pay rise in 2020 & 2021? To which many could not only answer yes to, but in fact many who where furloughed got a pay cut by up to 20% in that period.

 

[father_jack]

I will own up for starters as a yes

Made redundant in 2014
Started new job early 2015, one pay rise 2017
Short /part time then furlough on part pay 2020
Made redundant 2022 as company ran out of cash
New job, never had pay rise in it.

Well fair play for being honest.

But-

Do you think your experience should be normally accepted by everyone ?

Have/had you any trade union involved in your current or redundant roles ?

Would you hand back a pay rise if you were offered one now.......?

@Bantamzen - but those furloughed didn't have to go any work or pay the costs connected with work eg child minding, transport. Some could have made an overall profit !!!

 

[Sam 76]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, could you clarify please?


Very fair and balanced perspective; I respect that and agree.

Absolutely not sarcasm. I’m really bored of railway staff being used as a scapegoat by the government and the media. No pay rise in 5 years is a joke and its needs must to force it at this point. 100 percent behind all staff

 

[Bantamzen]

@Bantamzen - but those furloughed didn't have to go any work or pay the costs connected with work eg child minding, transport. Some could have made an overall profit !!!

Maybe some did, but only those whose transport costs, childcare were more than 20% of their income. But an awful lot more people did not make a profit and a lot ended up with more and more debt as they struggled to pay mortgages / rent etc. I know there's the perception amongst some that furlough was some stay at home big party not everyone was invited to, but trust me it was not. I work in an area that saw the impact of covid restrictions in the data, and believe me it was terrible for most.

 

[21C101]

Dosen't matter who wins the next election. Within a year or three the IMF will be dictating terms and we will lucky to escape widespread closures and real terms pay cuts for those who retain their jobs.

In 2022-23 the interest on the UK national debt was £112 billion. That is more than defence and education spending combined.

The debt is still growing, as is the interest rate the government has to offer on gilts to finance it.

All parties in office since the 2001 electionn (when Brown ended the commitment to stick to the previous governments spending limits and opened the spigots) share the blame for this (including Libs, Tories and Labour). The idiots thought zero percent interest rates were here forever so didn't reduce spending, just reduced the rate of increase a little (at times).



graph from.

United Kingdom national debt - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Absolutely not sarcasm. I’m really bored of railway staff being used as a scapegoat by the government and the media. No pay rise in 5 years is a joke and its needs must to force it at this point. 100 percent behind all staff

If your pay, hours nd conditions (including pension and free travel) are greatly better than most comparable jobs then you are going to have a big target over you if you cause any disruption and very little public sympathy, whatever the rights or wrongs of the dispute.

Same went for the fleet street print workers and we know how that ended,

 

[jon0844]

You can't really compare jobs like miners or print workers as those roles began to disappear, yet for some considerable time drivers will be needed on the railway.

If in 20, 30 or 40 years new trains are built to be self driving, and a Government feels it is time to try and get rid of drivers, then perhaps we'll see a comparable scenario. I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[irish_rail]

Absolutely not sarcasm. I’m really bored of railway staff being used as a scapegoat by the government and the media. No pay rise in 5 years is a joke and its needs must to force it at this point. 100 percent behind all staff

And I think your attitude far better represents what normal, none enthusiast , reasonable people think. It only seems to be enthusiasts who have this strange idea that trains drivers should work for nothing, or carry on like this until we are on minimum wage.

There is plenty more which could be done with regards to modernisation and reform. Anything from Sundays in the working week to route learning norms. At my TOC drivers accepted a payment to be given tablets to use, but don't use them as no agreement was reached on what they would be used for! Drivers still sign for and collect paper notices in book form every week, still fill in forms to book leave, still book on with a TCS, get given a day off to attend a meeting about not attending work due to sickness. DOO/DCO is still on the wish list of many tocs. Cross cover between depots, allowing depot staff to prepare units for service.

Of course some TOC's may have all or some of the above and these are just examples specific to the depot I work at, others will have their own examples i'm sure.

Trouble is, the types of reform you mention are not wanted by the Government. They want their cake and to eat it. They don't want Sunday in the working week for example, they just want to force drivers to work it additionally.

For a small percent of the population, perhaps. But most people drive, so don’t even know, let alone worry about it.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just trying hard to play devil's advocate. I think you know as well as I do that the strikes are having an impact on growth and the economy, even if it doesn't directly affect every single citizen.

 

[Train_manager]

And the elephant in the room is???

All non DaFt TOCs and FOCs have had a payrise!!!

Some are, as we speak negotiating for 24/25 !!!

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Well fair play for being honest.

But-

Do you think your experience should be normally accepted by everyone ?

Have/had you any trade union involved in your current or redundant roles ?

Would you hand back a pay rise if you were offered one now.......?

@Bantamzen - but those furloughed didn't have to go any work or pay the costs connected with work eg child minding, transport. Some could have made an overall profit !!!

It kind of fits with my experience to be honest - I’ve worked in public and private sector, and generally the public sector roles got a cost of living rise every year but the private sector didn’t, sometimes for a couple of years.

In 2020/21 specifically, the company I worked for was bought out and although we were TUPE’d across, we were told that if we didn’t sign up to their new (worse) conditions, we’d never be eligible for pay rises.

And I think your attitude far better represents what normal, none enthusiast , reasonable people think. It only seems to be enthusiasts who have this strange idea that trains drivers should work for nothing, or carry on like this until we are on minimum wage

Think, or hope? Most of the train users in my office regard trains as too expensive, and an appalling service with frequent cancellations and late trains being the norm, and regard drivers as being “well paid”. I think they view pay rises as being ok if it improves services; if it doesn’t, then I think they’ll be unhappy about it, whether the blame is on the drivers or the infrastructure, the drivers are the ones with their heads above the parapet!

 

[Krokodil]

but… at some point in history, presumably there weren’t any “trained” drivers as trains hadn’t previously existed, so everyone was making it up as they went along in the early days? When did it become so formalised?

In the earliest days trains moved at little more than walking pace, there was no signalling, and accidents were regarded as "just one of those things".

Inopportune timing for me, having arranged to be in touring UK that week on a BritRail Pass;

I would plan to end up in Wales or Scotland on those days.

Maybe some did, but only those whose transport costs, childcare were more than 20% of their income.

Full-time nursery costs for under-twos are £14k. Quite a lot of people were shelling out £6k+ on fares. That's quite a chunk of one's take-home pay. Not everyone would have been paying it, but quite a lot were.

 

[fishwomp]

And I think your attitude far better represents what normal, none enthusiast , reasonable people think. It only seems to be enthusiasts who have this strange idea that trains drivers should work for nothing, or carry on like this until we are on minimum wage.

I don't think anyone thinks this way - and given the numbers widely quoted, it's a long way from happening.

On this forum you have people who work in the industry (all areas) and those who genuinely want good things to happen to the railways - but not necessarily good things to those seen preventing the path to a good railway - be that government, great crested newts, trees, unions or companies that are part of the railway 'system'. Sometimes that's a reasonable opinion, sometimes its not - it depends on what people's marker for good value or reasonableness or relative worth is.

Trouble is, the types of reform you mention are not wanted by the Government. They want their cake and to eat it. They don't want Sunday in the working week for example, they just want to force drivers to work it additionally.
[.]

I don't understand this bit - I thought it was going to become a regular day. They aren't expecting drivers to do 6 days a week for the price of 5, or to work another 8 hours a week on top of the current contracted hours. Surely?

 

[Bantamzen]

Full-time nursery costs for under-twos are £14k. Quite a lot of people were shelling out £6k+ on fares. That's quite a chunk of one's take-home pay. Not everyone would have been paying it, but quite a lot were.

Oh yeah costs can be crazily high, which is why a lot of workers furloughed would not have had full-time childcare in the first place. A lot of furloughed work was lower waged employment, so £14Kpa would not even have been an option for most.

 

[Moonshot]

And the elephant in the room is???

All non DaFt TOCs and FOCs have had a payrise!!!

Some are, as we speak negotiating for 24/25 !!!

Indeed they have......so bearing in mind that some of those are Labour controlled authorities, you would think that an incoming Labour government would actually be party to settling this dispute

 

[Krokodil]

I don't understand this bit - I thought it was going to become a regular day. They aren't expecting drivers to do 6 days a week for the price of 5, or to work another 8 hours a week on top of the current contracted hours. Surely?

The latter. The government wants it to be compulsory overtime.

A lot of furloughed work was lower waged employment

True, the ones who had it cushy were the white collar workers who found themselves 'working' from their gardens, being paid their full wage, saving on childcare and transport, but not exactly working productively either.