Bi Mode Class 385's?

[PYROOGOBBO]

Heyo!, sorry for my thread spam!, but i had another idea.

Is it feasable at all to Potentially create a Bi Mode 385?, I'm thinking of it as a sort of Baby 800.
Could a downscaled version of the MTU Engine in the class 802 Be used? or a new Hydrogen Unit be developed
Class '384'?

I could see this as a Replacement for the Central Belt 158's 170's and 156's on the

Edinburgh - Glenrothes With Thornton [158+170]
Edinburgh - Cowdenbeath [158+170]
Glasgow - Anniesland [156]
Edinburgh - Dundee [170]

Routes.

and Possibility of creating a

Glasgow - Dundee
Edinburgh - Dundee

Via Stirling and Perth

route

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure Hitachi could do that, yes, though Scotland seems (sensibly) to be pursuing electrification instead.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

I'm sure Hitachi could do that, yes, though Scotland seems (sensibly) to be pursuing electrification instead.

It'll take a while still for scotland to do a full electrification, and the 156/158/170 sets are aging, and i just wonder then when the time is right, the Bi Modes can be converted into extra 385's. just i guess the bi modes would be a good stopgap

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'll take a while still for scotland to do a full electrification, and the 156/158/170 sets are aging, and i just wonder then when the time is right, the Bi Modes can be converted into extra 385's. just i guess the bi modes would be a good stopgap

156s are getting old, but 158s and 170s have easily got another 10-15 years in them.

 

[waverley47]

While this isn't an inherently insensible idea, it's not going to happen.

Could Hitachi do it, yes probably. Will ScotRail order any, absolutely not.

Primarily, Scotland has commited to wiring all the lines that a bimode 385 would feasibly be used on, in the next fifteen years. While the timescale may slip as time goes on, that date is final, and due to the inherent nature of the funding of Scottish electrification, without DfT intervention, it looks certain this will happen.

Politically, you wouldn't want to order bimode anything when you've commitment to removing diesel engines from the network in fifteen years. A bimode would have a longer life expectancy than that, so you'd lose money having to order them vice EMUs and taking the engines out a decade down the line, and unless you want to add more incentive not to do the wiring, it's not really sensible.

Scotland has already let the contracts for wiring much of the network, so we know where gaps are going to be and for how long. We know for example the wires are going up in such a way as to mean most lines can switch to battery units before the end of the decade. They're more environmentally friendly, and you're not paying extra for something you're going to get rid of. Batteries will be useful for last mile and moving around depots ect, and for bridging gaps or earthed sections following full wires.

ScotRail will be going for batteries due to the better optics and better efficiency. No cycling on and off like the 80x series, and no heavy engines, fuel ect.

Secondly, it's not known whether more 385s will be in the table. The next logical order is for Strathclyde suburban replacement, which 385s are unsuitable for, and by the time battery units are ordered, Hitachi might not offer them. There are union issues, sighting issues, comfort issues.

Instead its likely ScotRail will order 50 or so 3 car battery units of whatever fits the bill best. These units have a long life expectancy, a long build time, and you may as well get the right choice.

Basically, this is a speculative idea which may very well may happening with battery units, but never diesel bimodes. Diesel bimodes would be politically unacceptable and probably a waste of cash. Even still, with battery units it might not be Hitachi.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

While this isn't an inherently insensible idea, it's not going to happen.

Could Hitachi do it, yes probably. Will ScotRail order any, absolutely not.

Primarily, Scotland has commited to wiring all the lines that a bimode 385 would feasibly be used on, in the next fifteen years. While the timescale may slip as time goes on, that date is final, and due to the inherent nature of the funding of Scottish electrification, without DfT intervention, it looks certain this will happen.

Politically, you wouldn't want to order bimode anything when you've commitment to removing diesel engines from the network in fifteen years. A bimode would have a longer life expectancy than that, so you'd lose money having to order them vice EMUs and taking the engines out a decade down the line, and unless you want to add more incentive not to do the wiring, it's not really sensible.

Scotland has already let the contracts for wiring much of the network, so we know where gaps are going to be and for how long. We know for example the wires are going up in such a way as to mean most lines can switch to battery units before the end of the decade. They're more environmentally friendly, and you're not paying extra for something you're going to get rid of. Batteries will be useful for last mile and moving around depots ect, and for bridging gaps or earthed sections following full wires.

ScotRail will be going for batteries due to the better optics and better efficiency. No cycling on and off like the 80x series, and no heavy engines, fuel ect.

Secondly, it's not known whether more 385s will be in the table. The next logical order is for Strathclyde suburban replacement, which 385s are unsuitable for, and by the time battery units are ordered, Hitachi might not offer them. There are union issues, sighting issues, comfort issues.

Instead its likely ScotRail will order 50 or so 3 car battery units of whatever fits the bill best. These units have a long life expectancy, a long build time, and you may as well get the right choice.

Basically, this is a speculative idea which may very well may happening with battery units, but never diesel bimodes. Diesel bimodes would be politically unacceptable and probably a waste of cash. Even still, with battery units it might not be Hitachi.

I do have a ping for ..insensible ideas 8'D.

well!, Lets throw out the downsized MTU engine,
Could 385's have Potential with Batteries/Hydrogen instead?. Also im curious say if Battery tech comes along okay over the next while, how easy would it be to upgrade by simply swapping out batteries from potential unit?.

Or would refurbing say a 319 Do the trick?, i'd imagine it'd be cheaper and i think the 319 would be lighter.

Keep it on those same Routes as above, Though im not sure how good the range would be, as to why i'm not considering a Potential Edinburgh - Dundee via stirling route or etc.

If its battery units i do wonder since Talgo is looking at setting up shop in Kincardine and it'd be great to kickstart buisiness in scotland would they be a strong contender for the 50 new units?

 

[waverley47]

Battery bimode 385s have been proposed, but so far it's a design in a shelf and no real design work has gone into it. If we were going to see a new order of these, is expect a unit to spend an extended period of time at craigentinny having batteries installed first, as a test bed.

It's likely that whatever battery units ScotRail orders will be specified to swap out batteries as they age or are no longer needed, a bit like the stadler units with engines on rafts which can be forklifted out.

I don't think anyone wants to refurbish more 319s, especially not Porterbrook. ScotRail going in-house into the Scottish government means they'll be wanting new units, and by that time the 319s which are left will be approaching 35 years old.

Wiring contracts have been let in such a way as to make it possible to run battery units on the maximum number of routes as soon as possible, with wires gradually marching along to fill in the gaps and enable full EMU running.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

Battery bimode 385s have been proposed, but so far it's a design in a shelf and no real design work has gone into it. If we were going to see a new order of these, is expect a unit to spend an extended period of time at craigentinny having batteries installed first, as a test bed.

It's likely that whatever battery units ScotRail orders will be specified to swap out batteries as they age or are no longer needed, a bit like the stadler units with engines on rafts which can be forklifted out.

I don't think anyone wants to refurbish more 319s, especially not Porterbrook. ScotRail going in-house into the Scottish government means they'll be wanting new units, and by that time the 319s which are left will be approaching 35 years old.

Wiring contracts have been let in such a way as to make it possible to run battery units on the maximum number of routes as soon as possible, with wires gradually marching along to fill in the gaps and enable full EMU running.

OO i wonder, can battery units be recharged using the overhead lines?. then again i dunno if there is any spare units to do that? may haps?

modular engines/batteries sound handy and a way forward

 

[Bletchleyite]

OO i wonder, can battery units be recharged using the overhead lines?. then again i dunno if there is any spare units to do that? may haps?

modular engines/batteries sound handy and a way forward

Yes, recharging the batteries while on 25kV to run on them once the wires run out is exactly the use case for battery units.

 

[D365]

With the technology that has become available in the past decade or so, Hitachi/Alstom/Siemens/CAF will do anything if you throw the right money - and, more crucially, the right engineers their way.