Borders Railway - Now Open

[tomatwark]

Once again the Scottish Government promise a date without listening to the professionals.

It is all ready starting to sound like the Edinburgh Trams again.

I hope they do get this open, as it helps people living on the A7 corridor, but will probably not use it except to try when it opens.

The part of the borders I live in is 30 miles from Tweedbank, and by the time I had driven there I would be 3/4 of the way to Edinburgh, so for the mid borders it is a bit of a white elephant.

If they reopened Reston station on the ECML I would use that however as I have to go in the wrong direction to get to Berwick.

As for the line opening further south I can't see how they can get past Melrose without knocking a chunk of the old town down to redirect the bypass with sits on the old formation.

Tom

This was a post I made in 2013.

I you can see I was quite negative about the success of the line.

It has been nice to have been proven wrong so far, I going to Edinburgh next Saturday and guess what I am going on the train.

I work in Kelso and a lot of people I know here who have cars and could drive to Edinburgh, use the train as it is easier than trying to drive and park in the centre.

I think that it will now go to Hawick and I would not be surprised if it is not put into the Network Rail works plan fairly soon, no matter who is in charge in Edinburgh after May.

Still would like to know how they are going to sort out Melrose problem though.

It really is a case here " Build it and they will come "

 

[47271]

What's the story on overcrowding now, I haven't heard anything for a while?


The last couple of early evening peak Border trains I've seen at Waverley have looked busy but noone standing.

 

[fegguk]

Some train are standing room only. I was on the 9.30 from Tweedbank a couple of Saturdays ago and it was standing room only from Gala. The train back midafternoon was quite busy. The last time I was on a peak return it was busy both ways.

 

[jopsuk]

Overcrowding is the best problem to have. It's not always easy to solve, but it at least means the service isn't a business failure!

 

[alexf380]

The 16:50 and ~17:20 off Edinburgh are regularly standing room only until about Newcraighall, can't speak for the 17:50 but the 18:24 has been not quite so busy the times I've had to use it. I think the 2 car Sprinters are coping quite well outside the peaks, however.

 

[me123]

Overcrowding is the best problem to have. It's not always easy to solve, but it at least means the service isn't a business failure!

I agree. And remember, the improvements coming onto the line in the short-medium term by Scotrail will see more 170s on the line, with an increase in capacity and a regular 1tph continuing through to Haymarket, Edinburgh Gateway and Fife. A small step, but it is a vote of confidence in the new line.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I agree. And remember, the improvements coming onto the line in the short-medium term by Scotrail will see more 170s on the line, with an increase in capacity and a regular 1tph continuing through to Haymarket, Edinburgh Gateway and Fife. A small step, but it is a vote of confidence in the new line.

I had been under the impression that extending lots of services to Fife was seen as a bad idea because of reliability: Any service disruption around Fife would feed through to the Borders line, which, by virtue of having so much single track, would not be able to cope with the disruption. Am I mistaken, or has something changed?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I had been under the impression that extending lots of services to Fife was seen as a bad idea because of reliability: Any service disruption around Fife would feed through to the Borders line, which, by virtue of having so much single track, would not be able to cope with the disruption. Am I mistaken, or has something changed?

I suspect any extension to Hawick may be accompanied by some doubling. Obviously not a solution in the short-term, but these Fife extensions may provide good pressure for doing so.

 

[Class 170101]

The 16:50 and ~17:20 off Edinburgh are regularly standing room only until about Newcraighall, can't speak for the 17:50 but the 18:24 has been not quite so busy the times I've had to use it. I think the 2 car Sprinters are coping quite well outside the peaks, however.

Do any services have sufficient time (marginal) at Edinburgh (from Glasgow or Fife et al) to be extended to Newcraighall to perhaps reduce overcrowding?

 

[railjock]

I agree. And remember, the improvements coming onto the line in the short-medium term by Scotrail will see more 170s on the line, with an increase in capacity and a regular 1tph continuing through to Haymarket, Edinburgh Gateway and Fife. A small step, but it is a vote of confidence in the new line.

I wasn't aware of any off peak trains going on to fife. Where was that announced? At present there is a long layover in Waverley for the leak ones that do to mitigate knock on delays.

 

[Chrism20]

I wasn't aware of any off peak trains going on to fife. Where was that announced? At present there is a long layover in Waverley for the leak ones that do to mitigate knock on delays.

It was in the big announcement last month. 13 additional 170s are being retained and will be running on the fire circle & borders with one through service an hour.

Edinburgh:
New standard ‘all day’ timetable to stations in Fife operated by 3-coach class 170 trains
New through service each hour between Borders railway and Fife. Borders railway primarily operated by 3-coach class 170 trains (X% more seats per train)
New half hourly service to Glasgow via Cumbernauld, Stepps and Gartcosh
Current half hourly service to Stirling and Dunblane becomes limited stop rather than all stations, reducing journey times by around 10 minutes

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...ervices-and-20000-more-seats-scots-passengers

 

[exile]

Travelled on this line today. Timekeeping was good and train was largely empty on the 0911 to Tweedbank but more or less full on the 1045 return trip.

Facilities at Galashiels a bit spartan but there is the Interchange just across the road - bus station with toilets and snack bar.

I just missed out on travelling on the old Waverley line (arrived in the borders in 1971). Looking at the timetable for the old line there were sometimes gaps of 4 hours or more between trains - now every half hour and every hour on Sunday - vast improvement.

 

[railjock]

It was in the big announcement last month. 13 additional 170s are being retained and will be running on the fire circle & borders with one through service an hour.



https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...ervices-and-20000-more-seats-scots-passengers

Thanks for that. Should be an improvement.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Travelled on this line today. Timekeeping was good and train was largely empty on the 0911 to Tweedbank but more or less full on the 1045 return trip.

Facilities at Galashiels a bit spartan but there is the Interchange just across the road - bus station with toilets and snack bar.

I just missed out on travelling on the old Waverley line (arrived in the borders in 1971). Looking at the timetable for the old line there were sometimes gaps of 4 hours or more between trains - now every half hour and every hour on Sunday - vast improvement.

It's a shame no one will grasp the nettle and do some research at towns & villages along the former route to Carlisle to see what potential custom base there is out there.

I think the reopening of the line so far has exceeded any expectations by a big margin, so I think it would be really worthwhile investigating further.

 

[Kendalian]

Much as I'd love to see it, but I can't see a business case for reopening from Hawick to Carlisle.

Tweedbank to Hawick yes, but not further south.

Unless the Scottish Gov decides there is a strategic reason to reopen despite the lack of custom. Lamington closure showed the value of reopening!

I drove up to Tweedbank on 5th Sept to see the specials running; the A7 from Carlisle to Hawick was deserted on a Saturday lunchtime so what chance the railway?

We can but dream though

 

[najaB]

It's a shame no one will grasp the nettle and do some research at towns & villages along the former route to Carlisle to see what potential custom base there is out there.

I just did the mandatory 'Google Earth Survey' and can see a problem... There isn't really much of anyone to ask!

 

[Hackneyite]

I really do think we should give up this extension to Carlisle business.

'If' the authorities are serious about allowing large-scale housebuilding on the route
then Hawick - and electrification- should be approved asap.

Maybe look at Carlisle again in 30 years' time?

 

[deltic08]

I really do think we should give up this extension to Carlisle business.

'If' the authorities are serious about allowing large-scale housebuilding on the route
then Hawick - and electrification- should be approved asap.

Maybe look at Carlisle again in 30 years' time?

A million tons of timber is taken out of Kielder Forest every year all by road. This is the nearest line to take timber out by rail. As most of it goes south then the sooner Riccarton Junction-Carlisle is reinstated the better, not in 30 years time.

 

[exile]

I really do think we should give up this extension to Carlisle business.

'If' the authorities are serious about allowing large-scale housebuilding on the route
then Hawick - and electrification- should be approved asap.

Maybe look at Carlisle again in 30 years' time?

The only significant extra revenue arising from such an extension would be travellers from the border towns to London or other destinations in England. There isn't any potential local traffic to speak of.

Dumfries has about 400,000 passengers a year travelling to/from England - but it's close enough to Carlisle to have a significant commuter traffic. How many would travel to/from Hawick/Galashiels to England?

It is, however, strange to think in retrospect that the Edinburgh/Carstairs route, which passes through nowhere larger than Lockerbie (pop. 2000), was kept open in preference to the Borders line (Hawick, Galashiels and Melrose, 30,000). Admittedly the Waverley route was infested with curves and gradients and would have required 100 miles of electrification and some remodelling to bring up the average speed to something reasonable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Admittedly the Waverley route was infested with curves and gradients and would have required 100 miles of electrification and some remodelling to bring up the average speed to something reasonable.

I could not have put this any better. Well said.

 

[edwin_m]

It is, however, strange to think in retrospect that the Edinburgh/Carstairs route, which passes through nowhere larger than Lockerbie (pop. 2000), was kept open in preference to the Borders line (Hawick, Galashiels and Melrose, 30,000). Admittedly the Waverley route was infested with curves and gradients and would have required 100 miles of electrification and some remodelling to bring up the average speed to something reasonable.

At the time the railways were seen as primarily movers of fast passenger and fast/heavy freight traffic between major centres, with the assumption in the Beeching era being that local trains would not make money, and would get in the way of the profitable traffic, so passengers on short journeys and from more minor stations should go by bus.

On this basis the WCML was the most logical route to develop between Carlisle and Scotland. It was probably the fastest route anyway, but importantly retention of the link from Carstairs provided a southward link for Edinburgh at a time when downgrading or closure of the northern ECML was also being seriously considered. Thus, if your primary consideration is long-distance traffic, the logical conclusion was to keep the WCML and close/downgrade all the other routes.

As the Waverley route serves Edinburgh and not Glasgow, developing it as the main route from Edinburgh to the south would also have required development of the WCML or GSW to serve Glasgow.

 

[tsangpogorge]

The line was presumably re-opened (partially) to allow people living in the Borders to commute to work in Edinburgh, would a single track line with a 75mph max. speed allow quick enough journey times to make commuting from Hawick viable? Also the old station and route through Hawick was on top of a viaduct, would that need to be rebuilt or are there alternative plans?

 

[fegguk]

The line was presumably re-opened (partially) to allow people living in the Borders to commute to work in Edinburgh, would a single track line with a 75mph max. speed allow quick enough journey times to make commuting from Hawick viable? Also the old station and route through Hawick was on top of a viaduct, would that need to be rebuilt or are there alternative plans?

The speed limits between Tweedbank and Hawick are likely to be higher than to the North of Gala as the curves are less severe. Journey time would be 80-90 minutes from Hawick to Edinburgh. People already commute from Hawick into Edinburgh by car. Extending the line to Hawick creates travel opportunities within the Borders so there would also be a significant amount of traffic between Hawick and Gala.
If it is only extended to Hawick there is no need to build a viaduct over the river etc. If it was extended south of Hawick this structure would be possible but expensive, it's hard to see how another route would be practicable.

 

[och aye]

The Scottish Secretary says the Carlisle extension is a realistic prospect:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-36303455

 

[clc]

The Scottish Secretary says the Carlisle extension is a realistic prospect:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-36303455

His timing is strange. Usually politicians raise false hopes before an election!

 

[route:oxford]

His timing is strange. Usually politicians raise false hopes before an election!

It's 34 days away...

There may be Euromoney involved.

 

[railjock]

The Scottish Secretary says the Carlisle extension is a realistic prospect:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-36303455

I can't ever see it reaching Carlisle, Hawick maybe...

 

[work-traveller]

I can't ever see it reaching Carlisle, Hawick maybe...

Depends how much money government (Scottish or UK) is prepared to sink into a project that will have a negative return - baring in mind that the Edinburgh to Tweedbank business case was very marginal, and Tweedbank to Carlisle will be worse. There have been capital projects with far better business cases in recent years that have really struggled to make it through the ECAM process.

 

[Altnabreac]

The Scottish Secretary says the Carlisle extension is a realistic prospect:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-36303455

David Mundell is a nice guy but on this occasion I wouldn't take him terribly seriously as the Scottish Office has no budget for Transport Schemes and he is unlikely to persuade a UK Transport Minister to fund a scheme with such a poor business case.

As others have said Hawick is possible but Carlisle not so much.

 

[MarkRedon]

As others have said Hawick is possible but Carlisle not so much.

I think that this is even less likely to happen if there is any element of new construction involved in linking the Central Belt to HS2. This brings out the more general point that there will always be strong constraints (capital and resource availability, environmental, utility…) on any new railway construction. Any rational prioritisation would put Hawick to Carlisle well down the list of such schemes – which in practice means never.