CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Caaardiff]

The rescue protocol is to have a spare qualified driver to rescue the said units such as the 230's, im intrigued were does the Llandudno Junction or Holyhead driver come from if there's a limited amount of 197 qualified drivers ?

In the approx 3 months to May you think nearly 200 drivers would be trained up on the 197s or that tfw create a specific 197 link just to cover a lightly used branch line such as the Bleanau line & have spares at Chester trained ready to drive to just Llandudno jn ! I think they will struggle to get enough drivers ready for the Liverpool route by may tt change.

All eventualities were planned out in detail over the last 12 months regarding using initially the 1 route Chester to Liverpool, but this seemingly new plan has not been thought out by people with operational experience in that area.

I think some people have a very simplistic idea of how the railways work operationally, I did until I joined the railways & its not a criticism.

Just cancel another service and utilise that driver instead, same with the Holyhead driver. There are also shed driver shifts at Chester and work arounds that can be done to free up drivers.

Who said we expect all the drivers to be trained? Where are the Holyhead going to have their training done if they don't sign Liverpool? Similar to what's been done on the Bidston line where midday services were pulled to free up a path to train drivers. The way you talk it's as if there is going to be a major failure every day. That won't be the case. The mileage accumulation runs will highlight any serious problems, and if they continue to rise then the things simply won't be put into service in any form if there's risk of continual failure. I've not heard of one occasion where a 197 has had a major failure along the north wales coast and blocked the line for a fair amount of time.

If there is an opportunity to speed up the training, TfW should be taking it.

Does anyone know the structure of the 197 training for Drivers / Guards. It's been said it's 5 days but what does that entail?
Obviously classroom training can be done in groups, but are practical courses 1 on 1 with a DI or are more than driver taken out at a time and swap over?
As wobman says, 200+ drivers is going to be a stretch, but would be interesting to try and work out how many sign offs are achievable in the next 4 months to May.

 

[craigybagel]

Does anyone know the structure of the 197 training for Drivers / Guards. It's been said it's 5 days but what does that entail?
Obviously classroom training can be done in groups, but are practical courses 1 on 1 with a DI or are more than driver taken out at a time and swap over?
As wobman says, 200+ drivers is going to be a stretch, but would be interesting to try and work out how many sign offs are achievable in the next 4 months to May.

AIUI, 3 days classroom and 2 days practical. I would assume all done in groups a week at a time, but that's not been confirmed yet.

 

[Eccles1983]

Just cancel another service and utilise that driver instead, same with the Holyhead driver. There are also shed driver shifts at Chester and work arounds that can be done to free up drivers.

Who said we expect all the drivers to be trained? Where are the Holyhead going to have their training done if they don't sign Liverpool? Similar to what's been done on the Bidston line where midday services were pulled to free up a path to train drivers. The way you talk it's as if there is going to be a major failure every day. That won't be the case. The mileage accumulation runs will highlight any serious problems, and if they continue to rise then the things simply won't be put into service in any form if there's risk of continual failure. I've not heard of one occasion where a 197 has had a major failure along the north wales coast and blocked the line for a fair amount of time.

If there is an opportunity to speed up the training, TfW should be taking it.

Does anyone know the structure of the 197 training for Drivers / Guards. It's been said it's 5 days but what does that entail?
Obviously classroom training can be done in groups, but are practical courses 1 on 1 with a DI or are more than driver taken out at a time and swap over?
As wobman says, 200+ drivers is going to be a stretch, but would be interesting to try and work out how many sign offs are achievable in the next 4 months to May.

Chester. That's where the training is taking place.

The coast DI's sign liverpool. It was done as a part of the inital training. You don't need to sign the route to be trained on it. The DI's doing the handling all were made to sign Liverpool to stop this being a problem.

The training diagrams have been written and programed. Nothing more to be said about it really.

 

[wobman]

Chester. That's where the training is taking place.

The coast DI's sign liverpool. It was done as a part of the inital training. You don't need to sign the route to be trained on it. The DI's doing the handling all were made to sign Liverpool to stop this being a problem.

The training diagrams have been written and programed. Nothing more to be said about it really.

Do you know which route is the confirmed route for the 197s to go into service on and what depots are signing them by the may tt change ?

Is it true 6 x 197 units have passed testing and mileage accumulation with caf / rog as stated by a poster on here ?

Let's Hope the 197 training starts soon...

 

[Rhydgaled]

Many's the time at Wilmslow station, I have seen a 2-car Class 175 unit deemed to be suitable for a Manchester to Milford Haven service, with no first class section.

We always used the first class section with seat reservations on the Class 185 TPE units when travelling from Manchester Airport to places such as Windermere, York and Durham.

I don't think the lack of first class is an issue, particularly when some have joked that the class 175s are first class throughout given their high-specification interior (probably the best legroom of any UK standard class and I wouldn't be surprised if it is better than some operators' first class). Forming the Manchester services with just two coaches though is a problem.

When the 197s start entering services on the North Wales coast and to Liverpool I do hope the 'spare' 175s will be used to replace the 150s and 153s that still regularly turn up on Manchester to South Wales. It should certainly help with allocations having more 175s available when other units needs repairs or are in the wrong place.

When the timetable changes to a 2 hourly Swansea-Manchester and 2 hourly Milford-Manchester pattern what is going to happen to the missing Swansea-Carmarthen service every 2 hours? Will they simply introduce a new hourly Swansea-Carmarthen (with a 2 hourly extension to Pembroke Dock) or is something else going to happen?

Since this is speculation over the future timetable I have replied in full to this (and related posts) in the class 197 design issues topic.

 

[sd0733]

I don't think the lack of first class is an issue, particularly when some have joked that the class 175s are first class throughout given their high-specification interior (probably the best legroom of any UK standard class and I wouldn't be surprised if it is better than some operators' first class). Forming the Manchester services with just two coaches though is a problem.

The 197s seem to have more actual leg/knee room than a 175 as the seats aren’t so raked back, being tall, I find the fold down tables dig into my knee on 175s but admittedly not everyone will have that issue.
The table seats on 197s have loads of space and can comfortably take 2 adults with laptops sitting opposite each other. With the leatherette head rests and the new moquette, people are far more likely to mistake a 197 standard for 1st looking inside than they would a 175

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If you consider basic shape as well, that on a 175 is very similar to the Sophia, when compared to other seats.

 

[Eccles1983]

Do you know which route is the confirmed route for the 197s to go into service on and what depots are signing them by the may tt change ?

Is it true 6 x 197 units have passed testing and mileage accumulation with caf / rog as stated by a poster on here ?

Let's Hope the 197 training starts soon...

Liverpool is proposed as the first route. Confirmed is a subjective word.....

Chester is first, followed by Junction, Holyhead and then cascaded out. .

6 units have not passed testing in the terms of being released - they may get released with known problems listed and accepted to be fixed. With regards to milage - couldn't tell you. I know one failed at the junction a few weeks ago.

Don't count on the training starting soon.

 

[wobman]

Liverpool is proposed as the first route. Confirmed is a subjective word.....

Chester is first, followed by Junction, Holyhead and then cascaded out. .

6 units have not passed testing in the terms of being released - they may get released with known problems listed and accepted to be fixed. With regards to milage - couldn't tell you. I know one failed at the junction a few weeks ago.

Don't count on the iverpool is proposed as the first route. Confirmed is a subjective

March is the current plan for the Liverpool route with May onto North Wales Coast and October on Manchester to South Wales.

According to a poster on here it's as above march for the Liverpools, then may for the N Wales coast services and then Manchester to S Wales in October. The training dept and DIs are going to be very busy working 24/7 to even get near these new proposals......
These plans have come from a Tfw source apparently, I would like to see the actual training plan for all of this !

I'm obviously more pessimistic than others on here, considering how behind Chester is with the 230's and its trainee driver backlog. Plus there's more qualified drivers out soon and then DIs need releasing for 5days for 197 traction training courses.

Plus there's others delays ongoing with the 197s that apparently aren't problems to some people but are problems to others. Obviously coupling won't be happening anytime soon then or other software related issues.!

Let's hope no 197s breakdown as apparently rescue units are not needed, plus training a whole depot can be done in 1 month......

Let's wait and see hey.......

 

[Rhydgaled]

The 197s seem to have more actual leg/knee room than a 175

Seem maybe, due to the Sophias, but the actual spacing on the 197 seat plan from TfW is 82cm in airline non-priority seating. On a 175 I make it 84cm. Even TfW have admitted there is less legroom than a 175, although I think they claimed it's only 1cm difference rather than the 2cm I made it (perhaps because of the Sophias).

 

[Philip]

March is the current plan for the Liverpool route with May onto North Wales Coast and October on Manchester to South Wales.

According to a poster on here it's as above march for the Liverpools, then may for the N Wales coast services and then Manchester to S Wales in October. The training dept and DIs are going to be very busy working 24/7 to even get near these new proposals......
These plans have come from a Tfw source apparently, I would like to see the actual training plan for all of this !

I'm obviously more pessimistic than others on here, considering how behind Chester is with the 230's and its trainee driver backlog. Plus there's more qualified drivers out soon and then DIs need releasing for 5days for 197 traction training courses.

Plus there's others delays ongoing with the 197s that apparently aren't problems to some people but are problems to others. Obviously coupling won't be happening anytime soon then or other software related issues.!

Let's hope no 197s breakdown as apparently rescue units are not needed, plus training a whole depot can be done in 1 month......

Let's wait and see hey.......

More recent posts have indicated that those potential dates for introduction may be put back a bit.

I still think by the end of the year there will be at least some 197s working from Manchester to both Chester and Shrewsbury onwards, although looking likely that there will still be some 175s covering diagrams into the early part of next year.

 

[Caaardiff]

More recent posts have indicated that those potential dates for introduction may be put back a bit.

I still think by the end of the year there will be at least some 197s working from Manchester to both Chester and Shrewsbury onwards, although looking likely that there will still be some 175s covering diagrams into the early part of next year.

It all depends on the plan for other fleet introductions. I imagine the North Depots will be a priority.
The South Depots will have their own training to worry about.

Carmarthen Depots will have 197 training, which like Liverpool could be contained to one branch in West wales. Eventually 756/231 training for VOG workings, and although I doubt it will be needed, there may be a need to train on the mk4 for Swansea-Cardiff workings, but I would think it would be the last if it were to happen.
Cardiff ML will need 231, 197 and more mk4 training. I would think the mk4 would be the priority, then 231 to release the 170s once the 231s are replaced by 756 arrivals. Unless a 197 or 2 moves South to cover Ebbw Vale services to release 170s before 231s move over, and allow training to be confined to that branch, but there's been no mention of that yet.

 

[wobman]

The 197 training for chester DIs was due to start last week but that's not started for various reasons, but once that begins then the Chester DIs will start training the Chester driver's on the 197s.

So they planned May this year 197 introduction looks like its going to be later than planned, even though one poster claimed 6 x 197s have passed testing there seems to be no handover of said units !

The 197 introduction will be the priority in the North as they will be the main traction in that part of the franchise, the ex GC Mk4s are going through a big mod program ready for Dec 2023 introduction. The extra Mk4s introduction will require all of Crewe depot to sign the stock, that's a lot of training for crewe depot after they sign the 197s !!!

 

[craigybagel]

It all depends on the plan for other fleet introductions. I imagine the North Depots will be a priority.
The South Depots will have their own training to worry about.

Carmarthen Depots will have 197 training, which like Liverpool could be contained to one branch in West wales. Eventually 756/231 training for VOG workings, and although I doubt it will be needed, there may be a need to train on the mk4 for Swansea-Cardiff workings, but I would think it would be the last if it were to happen.
Cardiff ML will need 231, 197 and more mk4 training. I would think the mk4 would be the priority, then 231 to release the 170s once the 231s are replaced by 756 arrivals. Unless a 197 or 2 moves South to cover Ebbw Vale services to release 170s before 231s move over, and allow training to be confined to that branch, but there's been no mention of that yet.

Highly unlikely Carmarthen will be getting MKIV training - Cardiff is increasing the numbers of 67 trained drivers, and training every guard on the mainline side, which should be more than enough to cover the Swansea work.

I suspect the temporary diversion of the 231s from the Mainline to the Valleys has bought a bit of time at Cardiff Mainline to get 197 and MKIV training done.

Once the services that stick close to North Wales are covered, there isn't a lot else the 197s can do until a large enough contingent at Crewe, Cardiff and Carmarthen all get trained that they can go onto the Marches. The only other service group they can do is the Cambrian, but that requires the ERTMS fitted units which are supposed to be the last to arrive.

What I suspect will happen is when 197s and 230s do finally enter service in the North, the units they release will replace the 170s in the South, meaning they can go to EMR and the 231s can stay on the Valleys replacing 769s until the 756s arrive.

This is all conjecture though - we won't know what's going to happen until it happens, and we especially won't know about time scales until driver training starts en masse, and that's not likely any time soon.

 

[Bob Price]

Noticed in the schedules that ROG were doing a number of Crewe to Chester runs overnight. Plus they have a number of runs to Rhyl from Crewe overnight this week. Possible milage accumulation?

 

[sd0733]

So they planned May this year 197 introduction looks like its going to be later than planned, even though one poster claimed 6 x 197s have passed testing there seems to be no handover of said units !

It is going to be later than May, the ultimate plan now is the timetable change but everyone accepts that in reality that’s too tight and is more likely to nudge into June and quite possibly July particularly with the ongoing unit reliability and other ongoing issues.

As I said previously there has been no handover of the units due to the current state of them, particularly software and other minor faults, even after doing their mileage accumulation. Fingers were burned in the purchase of the 230s after Their mileage and it’s being made sure that the units are fit to handover before doing so. The big downside of this is that a CAF fitter has to be present on each and every test and training run.

Like you say we will see, lots will change over the programme I’m sure, as it currently is doing on a pretty much daily basis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do find it bizarre (and extremely poor) that manufacturers are unable to deliver working units first time. It's not like this is a fundamentally new design, it's just a slightly upgraded 195.

 

[wobman]

Noticed in the schedules that ROG were doing a number of Crewe to Chester runs overnight. Plus they have a number of runs to Rhyl from Crewe overnight this week. Possible milage accumulation?

It's mileage accumulation and fault free testing, the whole fleet is getting major software upgrades apparently. So the upgrades need testing aswell.

I do find it bizarre (and extremely poor) that manufacturers are unable to deliver working units first time. It's not like this is a fundamentally new design, it's just a slightly upgraded 195.

It is all quite baffling to be honest but that's the way it is, tfw are ensuring they are fit for service before they accept them though this time.
Mileage accumulation and testing on the 230's by ROG drivers proved its not a good reliable method, we just ave to look at the 230's mess !

 

[Sod]

It's mileage accumulation and fault free testing, the whole fleet is getting major software upgrades apparently. So the upgrades need testing aswell.


It is all quite baffling to be honest but that's the way it is, tfw are ensuring they are fit for service before they accept them though this time.
Mileage accumulation and testing on the 230's by ROG drivers proved its not a good reliable method, we just ave to look at the 230's mess !

Over the past few weeks, I have been pleased to see class 197 units running solo on the stretch between Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction on a number of occasions. However, today I observed two two-car units running together for the first time, passing the site of the former Mochdre Station at 14.00hrs heading westwards, and then returning some fifteen minutes later. Unfortunately I was too far away to note the numbers or to take a decent photo.

This made me think about the mileage accumulation process; is there anything, apart from the delivery and preparedness of units, to prevent a number of them running in multiple, so as to economise on the use of drivers and accompanying CAF fitters? In addition, I would be interested to know what the maximum number of units is that can be run in multiple – is this perhaps calculated by the number of cabs involved, as per the ‘Sprinter’ units?

Finally, may I say how much I am enjoying this thread, as the posts are really informative and those posting are so knowledgeable – thank you!

 

[Bob Price]

I have seen 2 X 2 car and 1 X 3 car on a Crewe to Chester run. Not common however.

 

[krus_aragon]

In addition, I would be interested to know what the maximum number of units is that can be run in multiple – is this perhaps calculated by the number of cabs involved, as per the ‘Sprinter’ units?

The ORR approval document (see this post) states it's a maximum of 3 units / 9 cars in service, or 4 units / 12 cars for ECS and breakdown recovery purposes.

 

[seagull]

197004+001 on the Llandudno run today.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

https://twitter.com/railandroad/status/1489277097973530625?s=20&t=SddzbuB0g274qZcIk_--OA

Looks like the rest of the 197s have been approved.

 

[Mollman]

https://twitter.com/railandroad/status/1489277097973530625?s=20&t=SddzbuB0g274qZcIk_--OA

Looks like the rest of the 197s have been approved.

Seems to be just a repeat of their earlier tweet as it starts with ICYMI which apparently stands for In Case You Missed It

The ORR have accepted the 20 X 2 car and 12 X 3 car units into service.

https://twitter.com/railandroad/status/1483349501767262216?t=FOQyIrdaXCKUlcYj_tjE_A&s=19

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Seems to be just a repeat of their earlier tweet as it starts with ICYMI which apparently stands for In Case You Missed It

Ah ok, I didn't spot that, thanks.

 

[Mollman]

Ah ok, I didn't spot that, thanks.

I've done it plenty of times with DfT announcements "We've got more money, oh no they just re-announced the money we've already got"

 

[Sod]

The ORR approval document (see this post) states it's a maximum of 3 units / 9 cars in service, or 4 units / 12 cars for ECS and breakdown recovery purposes.

Thank you!

 

[Geeves]

I do find it bizarre (and extremely poor) that manufacturers are unable to deliver working units first time. It's not like this is a fundamentally new design, it's just a slightly upgraded 195.

I think you are underestimating just how computerized (read complicated) these new units actually are, there is virtually nothing that doesn't have a sensor (for example) and all the while this is sending information back to control and if the train management system onboard is not happy you wont be driving it anywhere. It will be software issues that have caused some of the delays (amongst other things)

Anyways always good to see positive news, I am sure the 197s will settle down just at the 195s have at Northern.

 

[Welshman]

It wouldn't surprise me there's a few places we're unit clearance is tight, the Conwy Castle walls and Conwy tunnels tight aswell as Belmont tunnel. They will need resolving ASAP and that's after the 197s get the steps fitted on the passenger doors.

Do we know how easy it will be to resolve the clearance issues at Conwy Castle?
I shouldn't imagine CADW will be that keen on their demolishing parts of the walls this time!

 

[krus_aragon]

Do we know how easy it will be to resolve the clearance issues at Conwy Castle?
I shouldn't imagine CADW will be that keen on their demolishing parts of the walls this time!

The same issue would arise with any planned future electrification of the line.

(The challenges of electrifying a cramped metal tube are probably a strong reason it hasn't already been done!)