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CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Lurcheroo

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A lot of good stuff in this thread by the sounds of it, it’s all slowly coming together.

Anyone heard anything about Birmingham or the Cambrian ?
Sounds like the 197 team want early 2025 for the Cambrian but union rep seems think it won’t be until at least 2026.
 
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RJ

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Just on my first 197 of the warm weather and it is absolutely roasting on here, with not even fans seeming to be running. I hope this is not the norm after years of enduring 158s!

I was on the 1703 from Cardiff Central towards Swansea yesterday which was a 197. It was sweltering on board and other people were complaining about the temperature. It seems the guard had to try resetting it numerous times and after Port Talbot the temperature went down a little, but not enough. The air con was on but was only blowing a weak stream of air, it was cooler outside!
 

Lurcheroo

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I was on the 1703 from Cardiff Central towards Swansea yesterday which was a 197. It was sweltering on board and other people were complaining about the temperature. It seems the guard had to try resetting it numerous times and after Port Talbot the temperature went down a little, but not enough. The air con was on but was only blowing a weak stream of air, it was cooler outside!
Yours and Vicbury’s experiences are very concerning.
These units have no opening windows and after years of suffering 158’s I had been seriously looking forward to a fleet of trains with solid and reliable A/C to make travelling during summer suitably more pleasant.
I could also see services getting cancelled for it.
A lot of guards would definitely refuse to take a very busy 2 car with No A/C and no opening windows.
 

RJ

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Yours and Vicbury’s experiences are very concerning.
These units have no opening windows and after years of suffering 158’s I had been seriously looking forward to a fleet of trains with solid and reliable A/C to make travelling during summer suitably more pleasant.
I could also see services getting cancelled for it.
A lot of guards would definitely refuse to take a very busy 2 car with No A/C and no opening windows.

It’s definitely something they need to keep on top of given the lack of any hoppers.
 

vicbury

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It’s definitely something they need to keep on top of given the lack of any hoppers.
One would hope that Spanish designed trains would have HVAC systems that could cope with our climate! Hopefully it is just a teething issue to do with software or sensors..
 

Peter Sarf

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One would hope that Spanish designed trains would have HVAC systems that could cope with our climate! Hopefully it is just a teething issue to do with software or sensors..
I suspect the particular HVAC chosen will have been specified by someone in the UK...

To keep us warm.

HVAC = Heating Ventilation Air-Conditioning, if I have got it right ?.
 

sd0733

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197125 is now in service, started on 22:12 Chester to Holyhead last night.
 

BillStampy

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197125 is now in service, started on 22:12 Chester to Holyhead last night.
Good to hear, we've gotten 2 new 197s enter service recently, better than 0! 125 seems to be going straight South into Cardiff! It isn't staying unfortunately but atleast it goes South quick.
 

Dai Corner

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I've just travelled on 197111 from Cardiff Central to Newport and have to concur with previous posters about the air conditioning.

It's a bright sunny day and I'd expected a noticeable drop in temperature as I boarded but this wasn't the case. It wasn't uncomfortable but the train was fairly quiet and another 40 people in the carriage would, I suspect, have made it so.

Another observation is that red 'door not in use' signs light up while the doors aren't released. I thought this was a bit misleading, suggesting they were faulty and locked out.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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According to the guard on 125 (1549 Cardiff Milford), the train was almost cancelled due to broken air con. It’s a boiling day in the South of Wales, not a cloud in sight, and it’s now working but very minimally. Its extremely stuffy.

197003, 022-041
197113, 114, 117, 119, 121, 123, 124 and 126
are the remaining 197s to enter service I believe.

These are all 197/1Bs with Standard Plus or 197/0Es with Cambrian compatible signalling. Standard 197/0 and 197/1 fleets are now all operational since 102 entered service in late April.
 
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Topological

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If the standard 197/0 and 197/1 fleets are now operational, does this mean it is close to a 1-1 mapping for those 197/1 that are yet to enter service and 5-car diagrams for the Manchester trains?

It feels like there may not be enough 197s to run the Manchester - Swansea as 3 + 2.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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If the standard 197/0 and 197/1 fleets are now operational, does this mean it is close to a 1-1 mapping for those 197/1 that are yet to enter service and 5-car diagrams for the Manchester trains?

It feels like there may not be enough 197s to run the Manchester - Swansea as 3 + 2.
197s being used on Ebbw Vale, Cheltenhams, Maesteg and the Borderlands when these should be solidly 231 and 230 routes is of course stretching the fleet.

When
197/0+197/1B on Manchester Swansea Milford 1tp2h
197/1 on Holyhead/Liverpool Cardiff 1tph
197/1 or 197/0+197/0 on Bangor Manchester
197/0 on Llandudno Liverpool/Chester Crewe/West Wales/Swanline
197/0E on Cambrians and Birminghams
is implemented in full as was the plan, other than some shockingly full Cambrians and peak Milford Haven services beyond Swansea, there should in theory be enough.
 

BillStampy

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197s being used on Ebbw Vale, Cheltenhams, Maesteg and the Borderlands when these should be solidly 231 and 230 routes is of course stretching the fleet.
The faster you remove the 10 diagrams for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg you'll free up 10 197s, supposing every diagram ran as one, which is really needed, 231s are being delayed thanks to the Valleys anyway. The 197s are meant to be 5 coaches for Manchester soon I believe, but I'm not sure it'll be fully operational until we free up more 197s off these local routes.
 

sd0733

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The faster you remove the 10 diagrams for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg you'll free up 10 197s, supposing every diagram ran as one, which is really needed, 231s are being delayed thanks to the Valleys anyway. The 197s are meant to be 5 coaches for Manchester soon I believe, but I'm not sure it'll be fully operational until we free up more 197s off these local routes.
Looking through the diagrams there are currently 3 3 car and 7 2 car diagrams on 'non-197' routes, 2 2 cars covering for 230s, 1 3 car on the next Mk4 diagram and the remainder on Cheltenham/Maesteg/Ebbw, there's also another 3 car which does the last Ebbw but off Manchester services so that's not really a diagram saved.

If those 10 were freed up plus the remaining non accepted units gives around 7 2 car and 11 3 car sets coming available on paper which should make a huge impact on the Marches and hopefully other routes too.
 

BillStampy

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If those 10 were freed up plus the remaining non accepted units gives around 7 2 car and 11 3 car sets coming available on paper which should make a huge impact on the Marches and hopefully other routes too.
Unfortunately 231s being constantly delayed for the routes they were intended to be on isn't exactly helping! As that would be a major help to the Marches which needs them most. I'd much rather have the needed capacity on the long routes rather than the local ones.
 

sd0733

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Unfortunately 231s being constantly delayed for the routes they were intended to be on isn't exactly helping! As that would be a major help to the Marches which needs them most. I'd much rather have the needed capacity on the long routes rather than the local ones.
To be honest though until Manchester is cleared for 5s there's not that many ways of getting that capacity into the Marches anyway, there's not nearly enough 2 cars to run everything as 4 car even with the freed up ones.
 

Jez

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I think the original plan for the Dec 23 timetable (announced around early 2023) was Pembroke Dock and Swanline would remain as 153 pairs until the 197s on Maesteg/Ebbw Vale etc were able to be replaced by the 231's. I dont think 5 cars on the marches was ever going to be impacted by 197s temporarily covering the former 170 routes.

Putting aside the fact its all been delayed and we are now well into 2024, many of the plans have changed since then, for one thing Swanline wont be going hourly all day as was originally planned and Crewe Local will remain as 153s long term by the look of it.

I think the slow acceptance of the remaining 3 cars is what is holding things up, plus as sd0733 says they havent cleared as 5 cars yet and who knows how long that could take.

As much as i want Swanline to move to 197s for all services, 4 or 5 cars on the Manchesters is needed more urgently.
 

Dai Corner

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To be honest though until Manchester is cleared for 5s there's not that many ways of getting that capacity into the Marches anyway, there's not nearly enough 2 cars to run everything as 4 car even with the freed up ones.
What's holding up the clearance of 5 car 197s to Manchester? Loco+4+DVT have been going there for years. How far north are 5.197s allowed?
 

sd0733

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What's holding up the clearance of 5 car 197s to Manchester? Loco+4+DVT have been going there for years. How far north are 5.197s allowed?
There were some unit issues as well as infrastructure concerns which I believe were all resolved and testing happened so it's just awaiting a proving and sign off run with the relevant bodies was the last I heard.
5 (and 6) Car 197s can run Cardiff to Chester, its Shrewsbury-Manchester where they're not.
6s won't happen yet between Shrewsbury and Crewe as the testing for those failed with asdo issues, a software upgrade in the future may see it happen but for now 5s will be the best that route gets.
 

Wolfie

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According to the guard on 125 (1549 Cardiff Milford), the train was almost cancelled due to broken air con. It’s a boiling day in the South of Wales, not a cloud in sight, and it’s now working but very minimally. Its extremely stuffy.

197003, 022-041
197113, 114, 117, 119, 121, 123, 124 and 126
are the remaining 197s to enter service I believe.

These are all 197/1Bs with Standard Plus or 197/0Es with Cambrian compatible signalling. Standard 197/0 and 197/1 fleets are now all operational since 102 entered service in late April.
Given that the aircon hasn't, as far as l am aware, been an issue on their sister units in England that is a concern.
 

Bikeman78

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I suspect it's more for unit balancing than anything else. The Crewe & Shrewsbury crews that work it North of Cardiff get plenty of 158 work on Birmingham services so don't need it. It might be of benefit for the Welsh based crew who bring it into Cardiff but then again 1 job on 1 day a week isn't really enough to maintain competency.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Holyhead and Llandudno Junction have had any booked 150 or 153 work for a year but they all still seem to sign them. There's been at least two 150s to Blaenau this year which would be a few crew turns.
 

AMD

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Given that the aircon hasn't, as far as l am aware, been an issue on their sister units in England that is a concern.
Um, yes, there have been issues on the 195/331s.
However a lot of it has come down to a dynamic temperature settings that the CAF units have, with an aim of reducing thermal shock when you go between the outside environment and train - lowest saloon temperature setting is 21deg when it's 15deg and below externally, going all the way up to a saloon setting of 28deg when its 40deg or above outside.
 

FrodshamJnct

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Um, yes, there have been issues on the 195/331s.
However a lot of it has come down to a dynamic temperature settings that the CAF units have, with an aim of reducing thermal shock when you go between the outside environment and train - lowest saloon temperature setting is 21deg when it's 15deg and below externally, going all the way up to a saloon setting of 28deg when its 40deg or above outside.

Eh? 28 degree saloon when it’s 40 plus outside?
 

vicbury

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Um, yes, there have been issues on the 195/331s.
However a lot of it has come down to a dynamic temperature settings that the CAF units have, with an aim of reducing thermal shock when you go between the outside environment and train - lowest saloon temperature setting is 21deg when it's 15deg and below externally, going all the way up to a saloon setting of 28deg when its 40deg or above outside.
Blimey I'm no fan of air conditioning systems that feel like a fridge in the summer, but 28° is rather warm! I'd also suggest 21° in the winter is too warm when people are wearing coats.

Dynamic temperature sounds like a great idea if they can get it working. In the winter it would make sense to be cooler than in the summer when people are in t-shirts.

Hopefully the current issues will be ironed out.
 

Lurcheroo

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Um, yes, there have been issues on the 195/331s.
However a lot of it has come down to a dynamic temperature settings that the CAF units have, with an aim of reducing thermal shock when you go between the outside environment and train - lowest saloon temperature setting is 21deg when it's 15deg and below externally, going all the way up to a saloon setting of 28deg when its 40deg or above outside.
Wow wow wow, what the actual ?
That seems totally ridiculous. I want the train to be a nice comfortable temperature (like 20-21 degrees ish?) even if it’s 30 degrees outside, if I’m going to be sat on it for 3 hours.

That very much seems like it’s designed for passengers doing shorter trips and not long distance.
 

craigybagel

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Correct me if I'm wrong but Holyhead and Llandudno Junction have had any booked 150 or 153 work for a year but they all still seem to sign them. There's been at least two 150s to Blaenau this year which would be a few crew turns.
It takes 1 instance of work every 6 months for drivers to maintain competence. Carmarthen depot is larger than Holyhead and Junction combined, and Cardiff Mainline is a massive depot, so one trip once a week isn't going to do the trick down there.

That said, there's been talk of Holyhead, Junction and Chester all losing their 150/153 competence for a while now. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the crews at the first two depots are already either relying on refreshes or simply no longer competent. I suspect in the next year we'll reach the point where in the North only Crewe and Shrewsbury sign 153s, and nobody at all signs 150s.
 

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