yes its heavily subsidised and thats a fair point but lines and route including the west wales to Manchester North wales mainline and the line to Aberystwyth ext are all decently popular and busy lines and all slated to use the 197 i understand that when its a less used system you invest less ( i don't agree thats best but off topic) however its worth noting that a large minority ( nearly half) do the majority of the journey and would not appreciate that point of view you can get more people using trains if the experience is worth the price which currently i dont think it is
What are you basing the 'large minority, nearly half' statistic on? Is there proof of this?
Ken Skates will not be personally specifying the train, that would be up to the TOC.
The Welsh government did specify the seats though. Or rather, they determined that the TOC spec was inadequate, and so forked out for a different model themselves.
a) Ken Skates is just a person in the government, its probably not him who raised the issue.
That's probably true, but it's quite common for people to attribute problems to whoever is perceived to be in charge of the responsible organisation; I assumed his name was being used in that way.
Indeed; that was my assumption and I said as much on this thread quite a long time ago. However I do still wonder why Keolis-Amey were allowed to make an order with inadequate spec in the first place - surely the WG would have had to see the spec before the order was made?
KeolisAmey will have made an order of what fits in their budget, why the government didn't complain at the time, when it could have been changed to Leans, I don't know.
at no point did i say whole the majority implies more than half the journey and to my knowledge most people spend a minimum of 3 hours on it ( 6 hour journey) so majority
i will agree that
The cynical part of me thinks that this has something to do with the welsh government wanting the bulk of their rolling stock investment to remain on services which primarily provide connections within Wales.
There is a fifth seat type already approved and in use, that is often overlooked: the Fainsa MD, used in first class on the 800/801/802. It has been the subject of griping over its comfort level for first class compared to earlier first class seats, but Fainsa do sell them for 2nd class as well, and it would make a comfortable seat for standard class on intercity services if the back were fixed at a reasonable angle.
www.flickr.com
It's very much subjective as I think the ICE seats are extremely comfortable, they even recline in standard class and I would happily see those in the 197s and indeed the 80x which currently have the rather hard Sophias.Pretty much the first thing that came up when I Googled the MD was this photo of a set of them on an ICE:
Awful Fainsa MD Seating on ICE 2
These seats are incredibly uncomfortable, the Grammer ICE 3000 is better in every way. Who knows why they chose this piece of garbage design.
On which the photographer says the following. Though I've sat in one and I thought it was OK.
I'm sure I can take a stab at answering his question, though: "because it was cheaper".
I really like those. They're miles ahead of anything we have on IC trains in the UK.Pretty much the first thing that came up when I Googled the MD was this photo of a set of them on an ICE:
Awful Fainsa MD Seating on ICE 2
These seats are incredibly uncomfortable, the Grammer ICE 3000 is better in every way. Who knows why they chose this piece of garbage design.
On which the photographer says the following. Though I've sat in one and I thought it was OK.
I'm sure I can take a stab at answering his question, though: "because it was cheaper".
To be fair, since that journey, I have discovered that the airline style seats are actually better than the table seat I had on that trip, due to better recline and adjusable thigh support.Pretty much the first thing that came up when I Googled the MD was this photo of a set of them on an ICE:
Awful Fainsa MD Seating on ICE 2
These seats are incredibly uncomfortable, the Grammer ICE 3000 is better in every way. Who knows why they chose this piece of garbage design.
On which the photographer says the following. Though I've sat in one and I thought it was OK.
I'm sure I can take a stab at answering his question, though: "because it was cheaper".
Granted it's nothing to do with the seat but I'd also nominate the absence of a heating duct as contributory to increased comfort.
I also thought from pictures that the interior of an LNER 800 looked excellent, and was going to be fantastic for four hours plus. Unfortunately it was among the worst 4h on a train I've ever spent, almost entirely because of the seating. I know people dislike the point being made but it's the home truth of a not insignificant proportion of the people who might use it.
I believe the quote refers specifically to First Class in an ICE2. The others are different, and indeed are being changed over time. The second class in unrefurbished ICE3 is absolutely excellent for example.
It refers to Second Class on an ICE 2, which is fine in an airline style seat, but less good at the table seat. I actually don't mind them now...
I remember when Northern did a whole flashy market research thing where they got passengers to try out different seats. Then they ignored all of it, didn't publish the data and chose the least popular (and cheapest
) option.Not wishing to be picky (and I agree it was a typical early days Arriva publicity stunt) but if they didn’t publish the data how do you know it was the least popular seat?I remember when Northern did a whole flashy market research thing where they got passengers to try out different seats. Then they ignored all of it, didn't publish the data and chose the least popular (and cheapest
Not forgetting, in regards to the 197s, initial literature suggested that they would have Comrail seats but there was an outcry and the Welsh parliament intervened and provided extra money for better (Sofia) seats to be fitted.
All the publicity I've seen from EMR looks as though they are the same seats as fitted to the 745s, which is very disappointing because, contrary to popular opinion, I thought they were very uncomfortable. The 810s are set to be the most underwhelming trains since the pendolinos at this rate!
IIRC they published the data after the trains were specced, but I might be wrong. I do however know that the most favoured set was the one now fitted to the 755s etc.
ICE 1 was built with proprietary seats, now carries Grammer ICE 3000.
