Calder Valley Ideas

[Manutd1999]

There has been a lot of talk on other threads about how NPR could improve services to Bradford, but it's easy to forget that the current situation could be vastly improved simply by recasting the existing timetable.

From Dec-22, the plan for the Calder Valley is as follows. Not shown are the 2x stoppers which terminate at Rochdale, the hourly Huddersfield - Bradford and the Grand Central services.

(Chester) - Victoria - RCD - TOD - HBD - MYT - SOW - HFX - LMR - BDI - NPD - BLE - Leeds
(Wigan) - Victoria - RCD - SMB - LTL - WDN - TOD - HBD - MYT - SOW - (Leeds via Dewsbury)
Victoria - RCD - TOD - HBD - HFX - BDI - NPD - BLE - Leeds
(Kirkby) - Victoria - RCD - SMB - LTL - TOD - Blackburn
(Blackpool) - HBD - HFX - BDI - NPD - Leeds - (York)
HFX - BDI - NPD - Leeds - (Hull)

The timetable has several issues:

- The fastest service from Bradford to Manchester is around 50 minutes, with 4x stops.
- The longer distance service from Chester strangely turns into a stopper after Todmorden, with a very slow journey into Leeds
- No services from Littleborough and Walsden to Halifax and Bradford and only 1ph to Sowerby Bridge.

Wouldn't it be better to have a more clock-face arrangement of 'fasts' and 'stoppers'? I would have a half-hourly fast service from Bradford to Manchester, calling at Halifax only. That would be complemented by a half-hourly all-station stopper. The service via Dewsbury could the run semi-fast.

Something like this:

2ph Victoria - HFX - BDI - NPD - BLE - Leeds
2ph Victoria - RCD - SMB - LTL - WDN - TOD - HBD - MYT - SOW - HFX - LMR - BDI - NPD - BLE - Leeds
1ph Victoria - RCD - TOD - (Blackburn)
1ph Victoria - RCD - TOD - HBD - SOW - (Leeds via Dewsbury)
(Blackpool) - HBD - HFX - BDI - NPD - Leeds - (York)
BDI - NPD - Leeds - (Hull)

There would be a net increase of 2ph along the line, but I think it would (just about...) be do-able from a pathing perspective. Advantages include:

- Faster services from Bradford/Halifax to Manchester (<45 mins)
- Half hourly stopper to better connect the intermediate stations
- Faster journey time from Rochdale to Leeds (via Dewsbury)
- Opportunities to remove stops at Pudsey/Bramley from some services, reducing journey times to Leeds.

Destinations west of Manchester could be adjusted to best suit, but the fast services would be good candidates to run further afield to Chester etc. The stoppers could terminate in the bay platforms at Victoria to increase flexibility.

 

[JonathanH]

Wouldn't it be better to have a more clock-face arrangement of 'fasts' and 'stoppers'? I would have a half-hourly fast service from Bradford to Manchester, calling at Halifax only. That would be complemented by a half-hourly all-station stopper. The service via Dewsbury could the run semi-fast.

I'm not sure that works without loops (of which there are none).

The timetable has several issues:

- The fastest service from Bradford to Manchester is around 50 minutes, with 4x stops.
- The longer distance service from Chester strangely turns into a stopper after Todmorden, with a very slow journey into Leeds
- No services from Littleborough and Walsden to Halifax and Bradford and only 1ph to Sowerby Bridge.

The Calder Valley timetable takes advantage of services 'turning off' to allow some faster services to run but it is all fairly tight to allow this and an improvement on what ran ten years ago. An out-and-out fast isn't going to work with a stopper on the full route, so realistically there have to be compromises.

 

[Manutd1999]

There are 9x additional stops between Rochdale and Bradford (excluding Halifax). If we assume a stopper loses 2-3 mins per stop on average, thats 20-25 mins total. So it would have to follow the fast service out of Victoria, arriving in Bradford just ahead of the next fast service 30 minutes later.

Maybe it would be better if each of the stoppers only called at one of Walsden/Smithy Bridge, but it is more or less do-able.

 

[JonathanH]

You envisage a lot of extra services running just to allow fast services from Halifax and Bradford to Manchester. Do you think there is the custom and revenue on offer to justify this half hourly?

Problem is that the other trains need to fit out of Manchester Victoria to Rochdale and Todmorden as well as on the rest of the line.

 

[WAO]

I wonder what sort of timetable could be planned if Rochdale had its island restored (to four platform faces) and Halifax, somehow, had a similar increase? Would the facility to overtake a stopper at these main stations, appropriately sized for the towns they serve be enough or would extra intermediate loops be needed for some fast services?

WAO

 

[MarkyT]

I wonder what sort of timetable could be planned if Rochdale had its island restored (to four platform faces) and Halifax, somehow, had a similar increase? Would the facility to overtake a stopper at these main stations, appropriately sized for the towns they serve be enough or would extra intermediate loops be needed for some fast services?

WAO

For a good mix of local and express services, ideally you'd need a section of slow line alongside the fast in each direction for the overtake to take place including at least 2 consecutive stations where the locals call and the expresses don't. For expresses to pass locals at more important stations they both stop at requires an undesirably long dwell for the local train, which is why local service is often chopped up into shorter segments that terminate at such stations.

 

[Neptune]

I take it you haven’t factored in the freights here because your idea doesn’t work whatsoever. It barely works anyway with the current infrastructure without the freights.

I can’t understand why the current fast is such a problem stopping at the heavily used HBD and TOD stops at a cost of 5 minutes end to end. The Chester only calls at 3 additional stops to that so hardly a big issue. Even if it was the fast path on the CV it would still be quicker to go TPE and TfW Leeds - Chester.

The via BGH was speeded up slightly by removing the last 3 stops into Manchester thanks to the new RCD turnback platform allowing more terminating services there.

The Calder Valley line is a secondary regional route, not a fast express route. It just doesn’t have the infrastructure to do that. What it does need is a second Sunday service from Leeds - Manchester.

 

[507020]

I take it you haven’t factored in the freights here because your idea doesn’t work whatsoever. It barely works anyway with the current infrastructure without the freights.

I can’t understand why the current fast is such a problem stopping at the heavily used HBD and TOD stops at a cost of 5 minutes end to end. The Chester only calls at 3 additional stops to that so hardly a big issue. Even if it was the fast path on the CV it would still be quicker to go TPE and TfW Leeds - Chester.

The via BGH was speeded up slightly by removing the last 3 stops into Manchester thanks to the new RCD turnback platform allowing more terminating services there.

The Calder Valley line is a secondary regional route, not a fast express route. It just doesn’t have the infrastructure to do that. What it does need is a second Sunday service from Leeds - Manchester.

I thought OP’s suggestion sounded too tight to allow any freight whatsoever. I daren’t ask how the timetable would be affected if the direct Bolton - Rochdale line was reopened avoiding Manchester. Presumably if capacity had to be found to run a Whitworth/Bacup service again it could just be run as an extension of one of the Rochdale terminating services.

There definitely needs to be a doubling of frequency on Sundays. The wait at Todmorden between the Southport - Blackburn and Victoria - Leeds services at Todmorden is 47 minutes, reduced to 40 in December, when it could be a reasonable 10 minutes with a service the other side of the hour. The only thing I don’t agree with in the week is that the fast Calder Valley path should not be a Victoria - Leeds shuttle, it should be the longest through running service, so either the Chester or the Wigan, with the shuttle being the slowest. Connections from Wigan to Halifax and Bradford would be nice but 158s and a change at Hebden Bridge are too pleasant to pass up and anyway I assume there must be some huge demand for passengers from Atherton and Walkden to travel to Batley and Morley which requires a direct service.

 

[WAO]

The Calder Valley line is a secondary regional route, not a fast express route. It just doesn’t have the infrastructure to do that. What it does need is a second Sunday service from Leeds - Manchester.

A true LNWR view - what would Sir John Aspinall say! (he would be pleased that his route could still handle freight).

Your excellent point about the Rochdale turnback is actually what prompted my query.

I think that the aim should be to give Bradford a good Manchester service without having to distort the TPU/NPH route to Leeds.

WAO

 

[Manutd1999]

I think that the aim should be to give Bradford a good Manchester service without having to distort the TPU/NPH route to Leeds.

Exactly. It would be a weird imbalance if Leeds and Huddersfield end up with 6ph+ fast trains, whereas Bradford and Halifax continue with 1ph semi-fast and 1ph slow. Improvements on the Calder Valley are vital for keeping some semblance of balance.

I can’t understand why the current fast is such a problem stopping at the heavily used HBD and TOD stops at a cost of 5 minutes end to end.

I don't have any huge objection to calling at HBD and TOD, my proposal was more about creating a more regular, clock-face, 'fast' service.

Edited proposal, which is more balanced and easier to path whilst still keeping the original intent:

2ph Victoria - TOD - HBD - HFX - BDI - NPD - BLE - Leeds
2ph Victoria - RCD - SMB - LTL - WDN - TOD - HBD - MYT - SOW - HFX - LMR - BDI - NPD - BLE - Leeds
1ph Victoria - RCD - LTL - TOD - (Blackburn)
1ph Victoria - RCD - LTL - TOD - HBD - SOW - (Leeds via Dewsbury)
(Blackpool) - HBD - HFX - BDI - NPD - Leeds - (York)
BDI - NPD - Leeds - (Hull)

 

[JonathanH]

2ph Victoria - TOD - HBD - HFX - BDI - NPD - BLE - Leeds
2ph Victoria - RCD - SMB - LTL - WDN - TOD - HBD - MYT - SOW - HFX - LMR - BDI - NPD - BLE - Leeds

It would almost be worth combining these at Bradford or terminating one there as they would need to leave Leeds immediately behind each other.

The other point is about passenger loadings. Does the Accrington / Burnley train have capacity for more passengers to board between Todmorden and Rochdale than a train off the Calder Valley. It isn't all about journey times. Balancing demand across the services is also important.

 

[30907]

I was mulling similar ideas over last week.

1. I agree with a half hourly BDI-MCV but would add a Rochdale stop - far too important to omit.
2. The Blackburn should remain all stations, alternating with the Brighouse.
3. This leaves the flows BDI-SOW/MYT not catered for, and Low Moor with a poor service (only the Huddersfields).
The cheap solution is to have one "fast" serve SOW (and connect to MYT) instead of TOD, and add an hourly (LDS-) BDI-HFX for Low Moor, so 5tph.
More aspirationally, I would run the additional train to Hebden Br (ECS via Hall Royd if the turnback isn't convenient).
This leaves the Summit Tunnel section at 4tph and should make pathing less difficult.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There would be a net increase of 2ph along the line, but I think it would (just about...) be do-able from a pathing perspective. Advantages include:

- Faster services from Bradford/Halifax to Manchester (<45 mins)
- Half hourly stopper to better connect the intermediate stations
- Faster journey time from Rochdale to Leeds (via Dewsbury)
- Opportunities to remove stops at Pudsey/Bramley from some services, reducing journey times to Leeds.

You got advantages but not the issues - who do you propose to fund these extra services?

 

[tbtc]

1. I agree with @30907 that , whilst a fast half hourly Bradford service would be important, you can’t skip Rochdale. I’d serve Todmorden once per hour and Hebden Bridge once per hour to balance them out. Plus Halifax of course. That would give a fast flagship service (without disrupting the entire timetable around it and making everywhere rise play second fiddle). Regardless, it seems a lot of hassle to go to to save five minutes (and inconvenience everyone else at the same time!)

2. It’d solve a few problems if we could run the Blackpool service via Dewsbury , since that ties the two hourly services together and means all Rochdale-Calder Valley trains can serve Bradford, but the loss of the Bradford-WCML link (at Preston) would be a very hard sell, it’s a non-starter.

3. Under some of these plans, there are quite an increase in Calder Valley frequency. That’s not impossible (as long as we don’t have one non-stop service eating up lots of paths) but there’s no additional capacity at a Leeds as things stand. Four paths per hour at the moment but the Halifax terminator and the Blackpool take up half of those.
So if some services have to terminate at Bradford from the west then are they the fast or slow ones? Does Hebden Bridge see a faster train to Leeds, but that’s going to mean smaller places lose their through Leeds services (Mytholmroyd etc)? Or do Hebden Bridge passengers have a future where the through train to Leeds is the slower all stops one, because the fast one doesn’t go beyond Bradford?

4. Or would it work if the Blackpool became a stopper in the Calder Valley because the Dewsbury train remains all stops , so everywhere would have those for Leeds, meaning we could terminate the Manchester stoppers at Bradford and extend the fast ones to Leeds (providing a decent journey time for journeys like Rochdale to Leeds)? But then you’re inconveniencing the East Lancashire passengers instead… no simple solutions on a two track railway!

5. No argument from me about the Sunday improvements but that’s presumably a staffing issue (?)

6. With bi-mode trains on on the horizon, we need to be discussing electrification of Leeds-Halifax and Rochdale-Manchester, because it’ll take some time to finalise, whilst trains can be procured much sooner

 

[MarkyT]

So if some services have to terminate at Bradford from the west then are they the fast or slow ones? Does Hebden Bridge see a faster train to Leeds, but that’s going to mean smaller places lose their through Leeds services...

I suggest an eastbound fast could combine with the preceding stopper at Bradford before proceeding coupled to Leeds using only one path/platform. It might have to call at all stations but it would be better than having to change and there's only two intermediate stops anyway. Manchester - Leeds journey time isn't so important on the Calder Valley route as there'll always be faster trains via Huddersfield.

 

[Bantamzen]

Here's my thoughts. Firstly I don't think right now there is sufficient capacity for more services, but maybe some shuffling of existing ones.

• Leeds - Bradford - Chester: I'd like to see this one have fewer stops in the Calder Valley, i.e. Halifax- Hebden Bridge - Todmorden - Rochdale, then have one of the Leeds - Manchester shuttles take up the lost stops on this service. This will give this particular service a bit more leeway if it loses time from Chester and through Manchester. Ideally (he says putting on tin hat) if there were sufficient capacity through Manchester this would change to being a Manchester Airport one. That would make it a more valuable service for Bradford & the Calder Valley, but only when the Castlefield problem is properly solved (read the fabled four-tracking).
• Leeds - Bradford - Blackpool & Manchester - Blackburn: Keep these as is, diverting the Blackpool services away from Bradford will also disadvantage Halifax, and require either a change at somewhere like Hebden Bridge, or more like for Bradford passengers more punters interchanging at Leeds.
• Leeds - Brighouse - Manchester: Honestly I don't see the point in this one at all. Maybe this one could instead head for Halifax & terminate there, or even extend back to Bradford? This would keep Brighouse at 2tph with 1tph heading to Leeds.
• Hull/Leeds - Bradford - Halifax: This one I would use to replace the lost Manchester via Brighouse service above. It would then give Bradford & Halifax an extra Manchester service without the need for an additional path.

Obviously beyond these small changes the Calder Valley should be on the to-do list for future wiring once the North TP work is done.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Smithy Bridge used to be my local station. I hear on Twitter from a friend who still (tries) to catch trains there - glad it isn't me. What at one time was a regular and reliable service has gone. The new timetable seems bonkers - no ability to catch trains from Littleborough to Halifax? A Chester super express as far as Hebden Bridge then it stops absolutely everywhere?

Where in the country sat the people who planned this???

 

[The Planner]

Smithy Bridge used to be my local station. I hear on Twitter from a friend who still (tries) to catch trains there - glad it isn't me. What at one time was a regular and reliable service has gone. The new timetable seems bonkers - no ability to catch trains from Littleborough to Halifax? A Chester super express as far as Hebden Bridge then it stops absolutely everywhere?

Where in the country sat the people who planned this???

Manchester in the Northern offices.

 

[Manutd1999]

So if some services have to terminate at Bradford from the west then are they the fast or slow ones?

I quite like the idea of terminating the fast services at Bradford. There would then be 4ph between Bradford and Leeds:

2ph slow Victoria - Leeds
1ph Blackpool - York
1ph Halifax - Hull

Longer term, I think the ambition should be to have an extra 2ph starting from Bradford and then continuing past Leeds, maybe as an extension of the Leeds to York stoppers. The Blackpool and Hull services could then skip Pudsey and Bramley to reduce journey times on the longer routes.

• Leeds - Brighouse - Manchester: Honestly I don't see the point in this one at all. Maybe this one could instead head for Halifax & terminate there, or even extend back to Bradford? This would keep Brighouse at 2tph with 1tph heading to Leeds

I think this service has merit. It provides a faster service into Leeds from Sowerby Bridge and Hebden. Post TRU, it will be able to run fast from Dewsbury to Leeds, reducing journey time further. If the other Calder Valley fast services were to terminate at Bradford, this becomes even more important.

Smithy Bridge used to be my local station. I hear on Twitter from a friend who still (tries) to catch trains there - glad it isn't me. What at one time was a regular and reliable service has gone. The new timetable seems bonkers - no ability to catch trains from Littleborough to Halifax? A Chester super express as far as Hebden Bridge then it stops absolutely everywhere?


Where in the country sat the people who planned this???

My thoughts exactly.....

 

[Bantamzen]

I think this service has merit. It provides a faster service into Leeds from Sowerby Bridge and Hebden. Post TRU, it will be able to run fast from Dewsbury to Leeds, reducing journey time further. If the other Calder Valley fast services were to terminate at Bradford, this becomes even more important.

On current timings, and pre-TRU the timings are almost identical whichever route you take, so there's no gain bypassing Bradford other than to give Brighouse a connection down the Calder. However re-routed via Bradford it gives both that and Halifax am extra Manchester run with little or no extra overhead. Moreover, sending the Leeds-Brighouse to Halifax gives the two towns double the connections, which might make that more valuable too.

Post TRU I suspect there will be more pressure to get more fast paths down through Huddersfield to Manchester, rather than having this turn from an all-shacks to express.

 

[Manutd1999]

Post TRU I suspect there will be more pressure to get more fast paths down through Huddersfield to Manchester, rather than having this turn from an all-shacks to express.

Once electrified, the stoppers that serve Batley/Morley will probably both start at Huddersfield. The DMU service from the Calder Valley would probably have to run fast to maximise capacity.

Moreover, sending the Leeds-Brighouse to Halifax gives the two towns double the connections, which might make that more valuable too.

A circular Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Brighouse - Dewsbury - Leeds is an interesting idea. I guess it depends on whether there is more demand to Dewsbury from Bradford/Halifax or Sowerby/Hebden?

• Hull/Leeds - Bradford - Halifax: This one I would use to replace the lost Manchester via Brighouse service above. It would then give Bradford & Halifax an extra Manchester service without the need for an additional path.

Maybe, but Hull already has a faster Manchester service via Huddersfield. Would make more sense to extend this to Preston? If paired with the Blackpool - York, this would create a nice half-hourly service from Leeds/Bradford to Preston and the WCML.

 

[Bantamzen]

Once electrified, the stoppers that serve Batley/Morley will probably both start at Huddersfield. The DMU service from the Calder Valley would probably have to run fast to maximise capacity.

But again, the path that it would use might be better used for another TPE fast rather than what becomes and all-shacks once it peels off at Mirfield. Far better to increase Bradford/Halifax capacity towards Manchester, especially as NPR is so unlikely to happen.

A circular Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Brighouse - Dewsbury - Leeds is an interesting idea. I guess it depends on whether there is more demand to Dewsbury from Bradford/Halifax or Sowerby/Hebden?

Not necessarily, it could terminate at Halifax instead of the Hull terminator.

Maybe, but Hull already has a faster Manchester service via Huddersfield. Would make more sense to extend this to Preston? If paired with the Blackpool - York, this would create a nice half-hourly service from Leeds/Bradford to Preston and the WCML.

Its not really about being a Hull-Manchester service, but simply to replace the Manchester service via Brighouse & give that extra journey for Bradford & Halifax.

 

[Philip]

but the loss of the Bradford-WCML link (at Preston) would be a very hard sell, it’s a non-starter.

Why would this be a problem? Bradford does not have strong links with any of the intermediate places served by the WCML south of Preston; Lancaster, Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh can still be accessed via Skipton or Leeds (for Edinburgh) and London accessed via Leeds or one of the GC direct services.

I'm not sure about what the demand is like for journeys between Bradford and Preston, but is it worth retaining this service as it is just for the Preston link alone?

 

[Neptune]

Why would this be a problem? Bradford does not have strong links with any of the intermediate places served by the WCML south of Preston; Lancaster, Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh can still be accessed via Skipton or Leeds (for Edinburgh) and London accessed via Leeds or one of the GC direct services.

I'm not sure about what the demand is like for journeys between Bradford and Preston, but is it worth retaining this service as it is just for the Preston link alone?

Huge links between Bradford/Halifax and Burnley/Blackburn/Preston. Travel on most 1Bxx services and you’ll see it for yourself.

 

[Manutd1999]

Huge links between Bradford/Halifax and Burnley/Blackburn/Preston. Travel on most 1Bxx services and you’ll see it for yourself.

Agree, this service tends to be quite busy. I think 2ph on this route could be justified.

A circular Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Brighouse - Dewsbury - Leeds is an interesting idea. I guess it depends on whether there is more demand to Dewsbury from Bradford/Halifax or Sowerby/Hebden?

Not necessarily, it could terminate at Halifax instead of the Hull terminator.

Assuming the train has to go back to the sidings to layover, terminating at Halifax from the Brighouse direction would require a series of capacity-eating reversing and crossing moves. Much better to continue to Bradford.

Tbh, if links between Dewsbury and the Calder Valley are not seen as important, then the only point of this service is to give Brighouse a connection to Leeds. Maybe it is easier to extend the Huddersfield - Bradford service to Leeds and scrap the second hourly all-together?

 

[Bantamzen]

Why would this be a problem? Bradford does not have strong links with any of the intermediate places served by the WCML south of Preston; Lancaster, Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh can still be accessed via Skipton or Leeds (for Edinburgh) and London accessed via Leeds or one of the GC direct services.

I'm not sure about what the demand is like for journeys between Bradford and Preston, but is it worth retaining this service as it is just for the Preston link alone?

How are you defining & measuring these "links". As someone who lives in the area I'm pretty sure people from Bradford don't confine themselves to this corner of West Yorkshire.

Assuming the train has to go back to the sidings to layover, terminating at Halifax from the Brighouse direction would require a series of capacity-eating reversing and crossing moves. Much better to continue to Bradford.

This currently happens anyway with the Hull terminators, so there's no real change other than perhaps timings.

Tbh, if links between Dewsbury and the Calder Valley are not seen as important, then the only point of this service is to give Brighouse a connection to Leeds. Maybe it is easier to extend the Huddersfield - Bradford service to Leeds and scrap the second hourly all-together?

Brighouse could still have a more direct link with the Leeds service running around to Halifax.

 

[Philip]

How are you defining & measuring these "links". As someone who lives in the area I'm pretty sure people from Bradford don't confine themselves to this corner of West Yorkshire.

Obviously some people will travel to these places, but rail travel between Bradford and Crewe or Stafford is probably a similar level of demand to that of, for example, Chester to to Chesterfield or Telford to Preston. Not very strong links and you could argue it would be more useful if it became a third Bradford-Rochdale-Manchester service, with the Blackpool service terminating at Halifax with good connections onwards to Bradford and Leeds.
I acknowledge that there are stronger links between Bradford and East Lancashire/Preston, but I read the initial post I quoted as implying that it is important for Bradford to retain a link with the WCML and the intermediate towns it serves, rather than just Preston specifically. And which would be more useful for Bradford: retaining the direct hourly service to East Lancs and Preston, or having an additional Manchester service?

 

[tbtc]

I suggest an eastbound fast could combine with the preceding stopper at Bradford before proceeding coupled to Leeds using only one path/platform. It might have to call at all stations but it would be better than having to change and there's only two intermediate stops anyway

Sounds potentially messy, combining services like that, but I’d means longer train at the Leeds end of the route so maybe that’s worth the uncertainty caused by relying on getting the fast and slow to Bradford within a few minutes of each other?

Manchester - Leeds journey time isn't so important on the Calder Valley route as there'll always be faster trains via Huddersfield.

I agree that there’s no point competing on time for Manchester - Leeds journeys, you’ll never be competitive going the scenic route through Hebden Bridge, maybe you can compete on price but never on journey times

However, it’s also about ensuring that Rochdale/ Hebden Bridge etc get a competitive journey time to Leeds, versus forcing passengers from those towns heading to Leeds onto the slow train stopping at Mytholmroyd etc because the fast services terminate at Bradford

Why would this be a problem? Bradford does not have strong links with any of the intermediate places served by the WCML south of Preston; Lancaster, Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh can still be accessed via Skipton or Leeds (for Edinburgh) and London accessed via Leeds or one of the GC direct services.

I'm not sure about what the demand is like for journeys between Bradford and Preston, but is it worth retaining this service as it is just for the Preston link alone?

It’s a status thing. At the moment, the Blackpool service means Bradford has an hourly train to the WCML at Preston and the ECML at York, so lots of places are just one change away. Maybe nobody takes advantage of that, maybe huge numbers do, but it’ll be psychologically important to the locals to have these options (rather than any other long distance journey requiring you to change at Leeds).

Same with Sunderland, where they lost their TPE services some time ago and therefore have to change at Newcastle for most long distance routes (given how slow the GC service is down the Durham Coast and how frequent trains are through Durham, even journeys to York/ London might be better changing at Newcastle).

Same with Rotherham, where trains don’t go further than Sheffield/ Doncaster (plus once per hour to Leeds, but the York service seems to have been abandoned) - it’s another decent size of place that isn’t on the main line any more and only gets local trains

That’s why there was such demand for Bradford to get direct services to places like Nottingham and Manchester Airport in the Arriva franchise - if you are a local MP/ councillor you’re going to prioritise various random routes to far flung places to “put the town on the map”, rather than the simple clockface service patterns that railway people find easier to operate, which would probably mean a very limited range of destinations and needing to change at Leeds for most places

(In theory the daytime GC services were going to help the economic regeneration of Bradford as well as Halifax/ Pontefract etc, just like they transformed Hartlepool’s fortunes… in theory)

 

[Bantamzen]

Obviously some people will travel to these places, but rail travel between Bradford and Crewe or Stafford is probably a similar level of demand to that of, for example, Chester to to Chesterfield or Telford to Preston. Not very strong links and you could argue it would be more useful if it became a third Bradford-Rochdale-Manchester service, with the Blackpool service terminating at Halifax with good connections onwards to Bradford and Leeds.
I acknowledge that there are stronger links between Bradford and East Lancashire/Preston, but I read the initial post I quoted as implying that it is important for Bradford to retain a link with the WCML and the intermediate towns it serves, rather than just Preston specifically. And which would be more useful for Bradford: retaining the direct hourly service to East Lancs and Preston, or having an additional Manchester service?

Bradford does have strong connections with the west of the Pennines as you state, families often move across one way or the other through changes in work commitments and often gravitate to the smaller towns & cities to live because they are cheaper, even though the work commitments may be more based around Manchester & Leeds. As for WCML connections, we are talking about 1 per hour that also happens to travel onto a very popular tourist spot for many people in Bradford. Its not like there's some expensive bespoke service here, its usually a 2,3 or 4 car 158 that trundles its way there.

So why would you break Bradford's connection between there and the East Lancs towns at Halifax? Just because the WCML might not be as important? Although it is also worth pointing out that a surprising amount of Scottish people live here, and have family back over the border. So there are stronger links than you might want to believe.

 

[Neptune]

Obviously some people will travel to these places, but rail travel between Bradford and Crewe or Stafford is probably a similar level of demand to that of, for example, Chester to to Chesterfield or Telford to Preston. Not very strong links and you could argue it would be more useful if it became a third Bradford-Rochdale-Manchester service, with the Blackpool service terminating at Halifax with good connections onwards to Bradford and Leeds.
I acknowledge that there are stronger links between Bradford and East Lancashire/Preston, but I read the initial post I quoted as implying that it is important for Bradford to retain a link with the WCML and the intermediate towns it serves, rather than just Preston specifically. And which would be more useful for Bradford: retaining the direct hourly service to East Lancs and Preston, or having an additional Manchester service?

Again you really need to travel on the service to appreciate the travel patterns rather than making assumptions. The market from York/Leeds to East Lancs/Preston/Blackpool is likewise large. Your idea of terminating services at Bradford for a spurious made up reason seems to be that terrible affliction that affects rail enthusiasts and rail enthusiasts only. ‘Buffer stop allergy.’ The only known cure is to terminate everything that encounters one or to knock it through to some far away route and damn the consequences such as demolishing peoples homes/businesses.

In May 2018 when the service was cut back to Leeds - Preston there was absolute uproar from both ends of the route (and the middle section too) about lost connectivity. I believe the connection time at Preston from Blackpool and vv ended up being about 20 minutes in either direction which is crazy. This was also a period when Halifax/Bradford lost their direct link with east Leeds and York. Both thankfully restored now.

Same with Rotherham, where trains don’t go further than Sheffield/ Doncaster (plus once per hour to Leeds, but the York service seems to have been abandoned) - it’s another decent size of place that isn’t on the main line any more and only gets local trains

I’ve mentioned it in other threads but the Sheffield - York service returns EWD in December. Currently just SuO.