Caledonian Sleeper

[driverd]

Empty from Inverness to Polmadie via Edinburgh for the set to to be dried out.

Set sat in a siding for three nights of sub zero temperatures and had not been drained down - was this an oversight or does modern stock not have drain cocks?
Guess what, the water froze in the tanks.

Connected to ETS on 27/12, thawing commenced and resulted in sodden carpets - and some bedding too!

Sorry - you'll have to expand slightly on that. What water? Toilet water? Air con? En-suite?

In any case, how did said water get into the saloon? Toilet water etc usually manages to remain in its tank as a liquid just fine, so why should it being frozen in the tank make any difference?

 

[RT4038]

Sorry - you'll have to expand slightly on that. What water? Toilet water? Air con? En-suite?

In any case, how did said water get into the saloon? Toilet water etc usually manages to remain in its tank as a liquid just fine, so why should it being frozen in the tank make any difference?

Presumably because when water freezes into ice it expands and bursts pipes/joints. When it thaws and returns to water it then runs out through the bursts and wets the carpets and bedding?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Presumably because when water freezes into ice it expands and bursts pipes/joints. When it thaws and returns to water it then runs out through the bursts and wets the carpets and bedding?

Simple.

 

[D6130]

Presumably because when water freezes into ice it expands and bursts pipes/joints. When it thaws and returns to water it then runs out through the bursts and wets the carpets and bedding?

If that is what has happened, surely the vehicles concerned will need more than just drying out? At the very least, they will require some new pipework fitting....and possibly one or more new tanks.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Talking of festering, is Crewe still really dark, lonely and creepy at 2330 at night? We took the sleeper to Inverness from there once, having travelled by train from Birmingham. The pub was shut and there was hardly anywhere to wait let alone any snack facilities. It was a relief when the northbound sleeper arrived (early) and we could get in for a warm-up!

It's been 5-6 years since my days of joining the sleeper north at Crewe. The waiting room(s?) were open and usually warmish, but all refreshment facilities closed, all station lights were on so not dark at all. I never found it 'creepy', still a reasonable amount of traffic at that time of night which meant a Virgin staff were out and about. I certainly never felt unsafe.

In summary not the most pleasant place to hang around at that time but no issues. Well worth it to be back home in Aberdeen by 9am the following morning rather than wasting most of the following day travelling.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

If that is what has happened, surely the vehicles concerned will need more than just drying out? At the very least, they will require some new pipework fitting....and possibly one or more new tanks.

Presumably quite extensive and time consuming repairs.
Last night Highlander 10 sleepers each way, Lowlander conveyed 11 sleepers up and 9 sleepers down, whilst there may be some slight adjustment in formations for seasonal loadings, surely not to the extent of 8 sleeping cars less than full train formations on one night - and 9 less the night before.

 

[thaitransit]

my goodness there must be some record breaking cold on that route to freeze the water in the carriage tanks! its normally in my experience the opposite problem of the "cold water" getting too hot in the tanks due to 40 degree heat outside.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

my goodness there must be some record breaking cold on that route to freeze the water in the carriage tanks! its normally in my experience the opposite problem of the "cold water" getting too hot in the tanks due to 40 degree heat outside.

If heat can penetrate the tanks so can cold, with the added negative of being left unheated in a siding for three cold nights over Christmas - and possibly barely above freezing during the day. In the 'old days' tanks would have been drained down prior to such exposure.

 

[paul1609]

Presumably quite extensive and time consuming repairs.
Last night Highlander 10 sleepers each way, Lowlander conveyed 11 sleepers up and 9 sleepers down, whilst there may be some slight adjustment in formations for seasonal loadings, surely not to the extent of 8 sleeping cars less than full train formations on one night - and 9 less the night before.

I've not been on the sleeper since pre covid but that would have been ample accommodation at this time of the year for many years. It's the norm for there to be empty coaches on both the Fort William and Glasgow portions, experience of the Aberdeen lounge car Northbound would suggest the Aberdeen section is the same, indeed its my experience that there's very rarely any Aberdeen passengers in the lounge at any time of year.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Did the sleeper call at Shandon prior to its closure in 1964? It was by far the closest station to the naval base. The modern naval accommodation is built on the site of Shandon House

At the time of Shandon closure in 1964 the Faslane base was in the early stages of development. There are various press reports from 2018 noting the 50th Anniversary of the opening of the base in 1968 although of course it may have been operational before the date of official opening, expanding on the previous relatively small scale naval use with a large part of the site then in commercial use for ship breaking.

Although the Faslane port was developed as Military Port No.1 during the Second World War, after the war naval activity was greatly reduced and the bulk of the port area returned to it's pre war use as a shipbreaking yard - and during the early/mid 1960s (and possibly earlier) they also scrapped steam locomotives. The scrap metal - or at least some of it - was removed by rail via the branch line which had been built to connect the port during the war. The branch line closed in the early 1980s when the scrapping activity ceased and the Navy then expanded into the former scrap yard.

 

[StephenHunter]

At the time of Shandon closure in 1964 the Faslane base was in the early stages of development. There are various press reports from 2018 noting the 50th Anniversary of the opening of the base in 1968 although of course it may have been operational before the date of official opening, expanding on the previous relatively small scale naval use with a large part of the site then in commercial use for ship breaking.

Although the Faslane port was developed as Military Port No.1 during the Second World War, after the war naval activity was greatly reduced and the bulk of the port area returned to it's pre war use as a shipbreaking yard - and during the early/mid 1960s (and possibly earlier) they also scrapped steam locomotives. The scrap metal - or at least some of it - was removed by rail via the branch line which had been built to connect the port during the war. The branch line closed in the early 1980s when the scrapping activity ceased and the Navy then expanded into the former scrap yard.

No call there in the 1948 Scottish Region Timetable.

 

[driverd]

Presumably because when water freezes into ice it expands and bursts pipes/joints. When it thaws and returns to water it then runs out through the bursts and wets the carpets and bedding?

Ah, perfectly simple then! Would have thought some contingency would have been designed in to prevent that, but then again, I'm no plumber!

 

[najaB]

Ah, perfectly simple then! Would have thought some contingency would have been designed in to prevent that, but then again, I'm no plumber!

There are three simple solutions that I can think of: don't store the carriages outside, make sure that there is power connected so that the heating can be set so that they don't get below freezing, or drain the tanks if the temperatures are forecast to be below zero. A more technical solution would be a temperature-controlled automatic drain valve, but that would also require power.

 

[Spaceship323]

There are three simple solutions that I can think of: don't store the carriages outside, make sure that there is power connected so that the heating can be set so that they don't get below freezing, or drain the tanks if the temperatures are forecast to be below zero. A more technical solution would be a temperature-controlled automatic drain valve, but that would also require power.

Isn't that what the generator van at Polmadie is for, to provide ETS to sleeper stock when it isn't connected to a loco

 

[najaB]

Isn't that what the generator van at Polmadie is for, to provide ETS to sleeper stock when it isn't connected to a loco

I believe so. However, this happened at Inverness.

 

[Bill57p9]

Surely the right answer is for the regular stabling locations to have shore supplies, not just to stop the stock freezing but to provide light and power whilst the stock is serviced without needing a loco running on the front.

I recall that Fort William had one in the motorail siding that the mk3s used, though not sure whether it is still serviceable and/or compatible with the mk5s (which use a higher voltage ETS - though may work on the standard 1kV with a short rake such as FTW)

Though no doubt such supplies end up costing silly money and if FOCs are currently finding it cheaper to haul with diesel than electric locos we don't stand a chance.

 

[TimboM]

Surely the right answer is for the regular stabling locations to have shore supplies, not just to stop the stock freezing but to provide light and power whilst the stock is serviced without needing a loco running on the front.

I recall that Fort William had one in the motorail siding that the mk3s used, though not sure whether it is still serviceable and/or compatible with the mk5s (which use a higher voltage ETS - though may work on the standard 1kV with a short rake such as FTW)

Though no doubt such supplies end up costing silly money and if FOCs are currently finding it cheaper to haul with diesel than electric locos we don't stand a chance.

Inverness has shore supply. It's ScotRail's not CS' though.

Fort William still has its shore supply in the Motorail siding and that's what the Sleeper stock is plugged into when its stabled there. The sleeper stock works with both 'classic' ETS at c.850v (it's what the 73/9s provide it at) and also the 1500v provided by the Class 92s. The higher voltage is only required for the Load 16 full rakes (higher voltage requires less current as per Ohm's Law).

Presumably quite extensive and time consuming repairs.
Last night Highlander 10 sleepers each way, Lowlander conveyed 11 sleepers up and 9 sleepers down, whilst there may be some slight adjustment in formations for seasonal loadings, surely not to the extent of 8 sleeping cars less than full train formations on one night - and 9 less the night before.

All sleeper rakes are running at Load 14 (i.e. 10 sleepers) now for routine winter maintenance during what is traditionally the quietest period for the Beds - this has happened at this time of year every year for as long as I can remember. So, yes, every night at the moment there's 8 less sleepers running than when it's Load 16s - but that is as planned and entirely normal at this time of year.

The rake with 11 sleepers on Saturday night had one extra going to Wembley for maintenance (wasn't in passenger use). The Down Lowlander was running one short, which has been replenished at Polmadie over the weekend, so it's Load 14 sets (10 sleepers) across the board tonight, as it will be for the next few weeks.

 

[Bill57p9]

Inverness has shore supply. It's ScotRail's not CS' though.

Fort William still has its shore supply in the Motorail siding and that's what the Sleeper stock is plugged into when its stabled there. The sleeper stock works with both 'classic' ETS at c.850v (it's what the 73/9s provide it at) and also the 1500v provided by the Class 92s. The higher voltage is only required for the Load 16 full rakes (higher voltage requires less current as per Ohm's Law).

Thanks @TimboM : as an engineer I am naturally curious of the technical details and did suspect that the 73/9s retained "classic" ETS. The specific bottleneck will be the ETS connectors which are rated at 600A (amps). At the standard voltage this delivers an ETS index of 99. The only way to deliver more power safely is to use the higher voltage, as originally designed for the Nightstar stock I believe. Plus as you state, the added benefit of reduced losses thanks to ohm's law.

Back to Inverness: not the best advert for the franchising model then.

 

[alangla]

On a similar theme, if you passed Polmadie on a Saturday in Mk3 days there always used to be a couple of sleeper rakes parked in the open with the side doors at each end wide open, regardless of the weather. It always struck me as a recipe for soaked floors, doors getting blown about and pigeons etc doing what they’re good at in the vestibules. This wasn’t stock under maintenance or being cleaned, they just seemed to get left like that all day.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are three simple solutions that I can think of: don't store the carriages outside, make sure that there is power connected so that the heating can be set so that they don't get below freezing, or drain the tanks if the temperatures are forecast to be below zero. A more technical solution would be a temperature-controlled automatic drain valve, but that would also require power.

I imagine keeping the coaches heated is the best choice as then all sorts of other problems caused by condensation are avoided. My little used old car needs a heated garage which I do not have !.

 

[John Bishop]

There’s no shore supply at Inverness in the motorail siding which is where the set stables during the weekend and any extended downtime.

 

[merry]

Financial results 2020-2021 for CS available at https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC477821/filing-history

Wow. Interesting headline items on a quick skim through...
In 2021 CS made an operational profit of ~ £10M, as opposed to a 2020 loss of ~ £4.5M
In 2020, about 60% of turnover income was passenger tickets, with £25M from Transport Scotland.
But in 2021, only 10% of turnover income was passenger ticketing, the vast majority of the rest was £48M from Transport Scotland.
I can't help but think that the profit margin of 17% on a largely taxpayer-funded operation is a bit high, to say the least, given how tight many public sector belts are at present.

There's an exceptional income this year of £4.5M from settlement of a contract dispute (costs due to late introduction of new stock), but that is not included in the operational profit (and might well be offset against liabliities outstanding because of the costs incurred).
They now employed an average 195 people, above the previous 179, but wage costs were lower in total by ~ 5% at £9.6M. Make of that what you will, might just be that less overtime was worked and more staff filled the rostered turns.

Also interesting is that CS paid £77,000 tax in 2021, but had a tax credit of £3.8M in 2020. At least they are paying a bit of tax now (and fair enought not to pay last year with a loss), but it's only just over 7% of the profit even now. Not really proportionate to the tax credit given!

 

[trei2k]

It might have been explained before, but looking at this tweet from CalSleeper on twitter:

@EuropebyRail asked:

Does anyone know whether CalSleeper are again allowing seated passengers to use the Fort William sleeper for short West Highland Line journeys (Edinburgh - Glasgow - Tyndrum - Ft William)? They show up in journey planners but no fares available.

The repsonse:

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1480565703757471745

Yes we are now! BUT tickets are only released 7 days in advance and seats NEED to be reserved with us for the train to stop. We can't sell the tickets though - these need to be prepurchased from eg Scotrail. Lulu

Can someone explain this to me? Does it mean I can only do this via an in-person ticket counter? Is it possible to do this online via a third party?

 

[najaB]

Can someone explain this to me? Does it mean I can only do this via an in-person ticket counter? Is it possible to do this online via a third party?

They are available to purchase online through Scotrail:

 

[Sleepy]

It might have been explained before, but looking at this tweet from CalSleeper on twitter:

@EuropebyRail asked:



The repsonse:

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1480565703757471745

Can someone explain this to me? Does it mean I can only do this via an in-person ticket counter? Is it possible to do this online via a third party?

A new level of lunacy ? Buy the ticket from other TOC but must get reservation from Cal S ???

 

[JonathanH]

A new level of lunacy ? Buy the ticket from other TOC but must get reservation from Cal S ???

It will come with a reservation when booked elsewhere.

 

[Iskra]

Festering for less than an hour at Preston saves you 6 hours at Fort William and 7 at Inverness - depends on your priorities.

As previously mentioned, berth fares are the same from London-Scotland as they are Crewe/Preston. Therefore, my personal preference from Yorkshire is to get a cheap advance to London and pay the same fare to enjoy an evening on the train in the lounge car, rather than brave Crewe or Preston stations at night and get to bed later.

 

[Roast Veg]

As previously mentioned, berth fares are the same from London-Scotland as they are Crewe/Preston. Therefore, my personal preference from Yorkshire is to get a cheap advance to London and pay the same fare to enjoy an evening on the train in the lounge car, rather than brave Crewe or Preston stations at night and get to bed later.

The example given (Leeds) would incur a 4 hour time penalty for doing this - worse still from Bradford, Halifax, etc, and probably about as bad from Harrogate. York is a 3.5 hour time penalty.

There's little downside if you live in South Yorkshire, however.

 

[xotGD]

As previously mentioned, berth fares are the same from London-Scotland as they are Crewe/Preston. Therefore, my personal preference from Yorkshire is to get a cheap advance to London and pay the same fare to enjoy an evening on the train in the lounge car, rather than brave Crewe or Preston stations at night and get to bed later.

Instead of going in the wrong direction to London, why not just catch a day train to Scotland?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Instead of going in the wrong direction to London, why not just catch a day train to Scotland?

To be fair, the last connection of the day from Preston to Fort William is 1441. You can leave Preston at 1758 if you connect with the Sleeper. Obviously you can board it at Preston in the middle of the night, but if the OP isn't doing anything that evening I can see why they might like the civilised option.

Inverness is 1706 (change at Haymarket), so a day train would make more sense there.