Can children travel on adult tickets?

[Amateurish]

My daughter is travelling this weekend and it is cheaper for her to travel on an adult ticket than a child ticket. Is she allowed to buy and use an adult ticket? She is 15.

 

[hexagon789]

My daughter is travelling this weekend and it is cheaper for her to travel on an adult ticket than a child ticket. Is she allowed to buy and use an adult ticket? She is 15.

Yes, that's allowed.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It's fine, as long as it isn't the Caledonian Sleeper or GWR Night Riviera

 

[Amateurish]

For the purposes of buying an "Off-Peak Family Travelcard" valid only when at least 1 Adult (16+) and 1 Child (5-15 years) is travelling together. So she can buy the "adult" ticket?

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I have no experience with this, but imagine it would be easier if bought online and collected rather than going to a ticket office that might have invented their own rules. I don't see why it shouldn't be valid because it is a standard price adult ticket with heavily discounted child tickets.

 

[Haywain]

For the purposes of buying an "Off-Peak Family Travelcard" valid only when at least 1 Adult (16+) and 1 Child (5-15 years) is travelling together. So she can buy the "adult" ticket?

It will be easier to provide you with an accurate answer if you tell us what is being planned (number of travellers, for example, and journey).

 

[Amateurish]

3 children, Stratford-upon-Avon to London day return, Saturday.

 

[30907]

I can't see a valid objection (she doesn’t have to be an adult in the legal sense!).

I agree that buying online would be sensible. Also, can your daughter reasonably pass for 16 (, and the other two not)? Again, to head off any awkward questions.

 

[jamiearmley]

For the purposes of buying an "Off-Peak Family Travelcard" valid only when at least 1 Adult (16+) and 1 Child (5-15 years) is travelling together. So she can buy the "adult" ticket?

The restrictions state:

Eligibility

Off-Peak Family Travelcard is valid only when at least 1 Adult (16+) and 1 Child (5-15 years) is travelling together. Maximum group size is 2 Adults and 4 Children

I would advise against failing to adhere to the above in all honesty....

 

[Bletchleyite]

The restrictions state:

Eligibility

Off-Peak Family Travelcard is valid only when at least 1 Adult (16+) and 1 Child (5-15 years) is travelling together. Maximum group size is 2 Adults and 4 Children

I would advise against failing to adhere to the above in all honesty....

I think this one does give me the nerves. Nobody is going to care if a child takes a spare regular adult ticket, but doing it specifically to save money is likely to result in hassle, particularly if they look young.

 

[MrJeeves]

I think this one does give me the nerves. Nobody is going to care if a child takes a spare regular adult ticket, but doing it specifically to save money is likely to result in hassle, particularly if they look young.

Isn't this exactly how GroupSave works, though? Sometimes it works out cheaper to sell tickets as adult even to a child as it saves more money that way.

I've had ticket office staff do this many times in the past. In fact, even some online retailers will do this automatically for you:





I don't see any difference between this and doing the same to qualify for the family travelcard.

 

[Haywain]

Isn't this exactly how GroupSave works, though? Sometimes it works out cheaper to sell tickets as adult even to a child as it saves more money that way.

It is, but is expressly permitted for Groupsave (detailed in internal Knowledgebase).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair point. I'm just thinking of the potential for staff to be awkward even if they shouldn't!

 

[MrJeeves]

It is, but is expressly permitted for Groupsave (detailed in internal Knowledgebase).

To be honest, I think the NRCoT also quite clearly permits it in any case:

6.3 Unless Condition 6.4 applies, children aged between 5 years and 15 years must have a valid Ticket for travel but are entitled to a “child” discount on most Tickets. If a discount is not available, it will be made clear to you when you buy your Ticket.

"Entitled", to me, doesn't mean "are required to use", and hence can choose to not use their discount entitlement in the same(-ish) way someone could choose not to use their railcard if they wanted.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

To be honest, I think the NRCoT also quite clearly permits it in any case:



"Entitled", to me, doesn't mean "are required to use", and hence can choose to not use their discount entitlement in the same(-ish) way someone could choose not to use their railcard if they wanted.

But it also says they must have a valid ticket.

I think the position is fairly clear that a child can ordinarily travel on an adult ticket, providing that the specific ticket type/restriction does not prohibit it or have as a condition of it's validity, that an actual adult must travel.

Or it's a special train, such as a sleeper service where other rules apply for obvious reasons.

 

[MrJeeves]

I think the position is fairly clear that a child can ordinarily travel on an adult ticket, providing that the specific ticket type/restriction does not prohibit it or have as a condition of its validity, that an actual adult must travel.

Or it's a special train, such as a sleeper service where other rules apply for obvious reasons.

True. I suppose the explicit condition for that ticket type requiring a 16+ to travel could render the ticket invalid.

Then again, most staff are generally on the lookout for people using child tickets instead of adult tickets rather than the other way around, and I do doubt anyone would actually bat an eye if they were checked.

 

[Somewhere]

But it also says they must have a valid ticket.

I think the position is fairly clear that a child can ordinarily travel on an adult ticket, providing that the specific ticket type/restriction does not prohibit it or have as a condition of it's validity, that an actual adult must travel.

Or it's a special train, such as a sleeper service where other rules apply for obvious reasons.

And where does it say an adult ticket isn't valid if being used by a person under 16?
Same thing with an under 5 using a child ticket.

 

[MrJeeves]

And where does it say an adult ticket isn't valid if being used by a person under 16?
Same thing with an under 5 using a child ticket.

The general conditions for using the Family Travelcard ticket type.

Off-Peak Family Travelcard | National Rail

Looking for Off-Peak Family Travelcard? A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Off-Peak Family Travelcard is valid only when at least 1 Adult (16+) and 1 Child (5-15 years) is travelling together. Maximum group size is 2 Adults and 4 Children

 

[island]

"Entitled", to me, doesn't mean "are required to use", and hence can choose to not use their discount entitlement in the same(-ish) way someone could choose not to use their railcard if they wanted.

But the conditions of the specific fare used say at least "1 Adult (16+)" must travel. A person who is aged 15 is not an adult (16+) even if they hold an adult ticket.

I doubt they will be challenged, however.

 

[30907]

The general conditions for using the Family Travelcard ticket type.

Off-Peak Family Travelcard | National Rail

Looking for Off-Peak Family Travelcard? A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Very similar wording (referring to "adult 16+" is used in the F and F railcard T&Cs
https://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions

4.4. The maximum group size is four adults (aged 16 years and over) including the named cardholder(s) and four children aged between 5 and 15 years.

I am not sure that means that a 5th/6th child cannot travel on an adult ticket?

 

[Haywain]

I am not sure that means that a 5th/6th child cannot travel on an adult ticket?

An railcard-discounted adult ticket would cost more than an undiscounted child rate ticket, so it is unlikely that the question would arise.

 

[redreni]

To be honest, I think the NRCoT also quite clearly permits it in any case:



"Entitled", to me, doesn't mean "are required to use", and hence can choose to not use their discount entitlement in the same(-ish) way someone could choose not to use their railcard if they wanted.

I agree with that. If a 15 year old wants to travel on their own and buys an adult ticket that should be fine.

Problem is the conditions of the family travelcard say "at least one adult and at least one child travelling together". That could be interpreted as being slightly different to "at least one person travelling on an adult ticket and at least one person travelling on a child ticket".

I doubt anyone would question it. But I think arguably that group has zero adults in it when the minimum is one.

 

[OscarH]

Out of interest will any sites retail this fare if 3 children is put in (so doing the auto-upgrade)?

 

[MrJeeves]

Out of interest will any sites retail this fare if 3 children is put in (so doing the auto-upgrade)?

I couldn't find any that would.

 

[redreni]

Whether there is a definition of "adult" that means anything other than "passenger with a valid adult ticket" is another question, mind you?

 

[ComUtoR]

This thread has been an interesting read.

If my Daughter and 5 or her friends (all under 16) decided to travel using this family discount. Would this be acceptable ? Can they do this every weekend ? If I buy the tickets using the forums ticketing site, will they be 100% valid for travel ? If they get checked at the gate line, who is liable ?

 

[MrJeeves]

Would this be acceptable ?

I think so.

Can they do this every weekend ?

I don't understand why the frequency of use has any impact on the question.

If I buy the tickets using the forums ticketing site, will they be 100% valid for travel ?

I don't understand what makes the forum's site specific to this question.

If you tell the forum's site that 1 adult and 5 children are travelling (as per your scenario), it will sell you tickets that match this, as would any other site.

If they get checked at the gate line, who is liable ?

Liable for what?

 

[Amateurish]

Interesting to see the variety of opinions here. I thought it might be a tricky one.

I've told her to buy the ticket online and collect from a machine, as advised.

 

[43066]

Interesting to see the variety of opinions here. I thought it might be a tricky one.

I've told her to buy the ticket online and collect from a machine, as advised.

I’d expect issues as they are misusing the discount, which clearly requires an adult travelling with the group. Better just to pay the correct fare, rather than trying to game the system, surely?

 

[redreni]

I’d expect issues as they are misusing the discount, which clearly requires an adult travelling with the group. Better just to pay the correct fare, rather than trying to game the system, surely?

What definition of "adult" are you using?

The railway doesn't use the same definition as the world outside the railway (18 or over for most purposes).

Moreover (and I am happy to be corrected) I don't think it's written down anywhere that only people 16 years of age or older can be adults for the purposes of this restriction? It seems anything but clear to me. It's left undefined and ambiguous.

If I wanted to do this my argument would be that the NRCoT doesn't define an adult, it just says you are entitled to a discounted child ticket if you are under 16. It doesn't say you might have to pay more because you are under 16. It doesn't say under 16s can't travel on an adult ticket and, purely by dint of travelling on an adult ticket, be regarded as an adult for the purposes of ticket restrictions, group discount conditions etc.

If I worked for the railway and wanted to stop people doing this (and I can't imagine why we'd want to, frankly) then I would argue it is implicit in saying that only under 16s qualify for child discount, that anyone 16 or over is (for purposes of rail tickets) an adult and therefore the group doesn't confirm to the conditions of the family travelcard. But if that is the railway's interpretation of it's restriction then it would be better if the restriction specified exactly what is meant by "adult".