Carstairs Splitting / Joining services in the BR Era

[Taunton]

Moderator note - split from:

Silly question: Reverse Formation

This is a very silly question (my brain isn't working today!) LNER posted a few weeks an update to the 0755 INV KGX to say that "this train will run in reverse formation from NCL to KGX". The route didn't appear to be different. So what was happening with the train? EDIT: Found an example from...

www.railforums.co.uk

In the days when loco-hauled trains from Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland used to divide at Carstairs for Glasgow and Edinburgh, the Edinburgh portion was on the rear, just detached at Carstairs to leave in the opposite direction. Except for one Monday (so possibly after weekend diversions) when it was announced as 'running in reverse formation', which indeed it was, Edinburgh portion on the front, Glasgow at the rear. A presumably enthusiast was voluble to any and everyone about how this was impossible. You may care to work out what shunting moves were required at Carstairs, which had doubtless had this one happen before, to allow the two halves to continue.

 

[edwin_m]

In the days when loco-hauled trains from Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland used to divide at Carstairs for Glasgow and Edinburgh, the Edinburgh portion was on the rear, just detached at Carstairs to leave in the opposite direction. Except for one Monday (so possibly after weekend diversions) when it was announced as 'running in reverse formation', which indeed it was, Edinburgh portion on the front, Glasgow at the rear. A presumably enthusiast was voluble to any and everyone about how this was impossible. You may care to work out what shunting moves were required at Carstairs, which had doubtless had this one happen before, to allow the two halves to continue.

I saw that too at New Street, back in the late 1970s or early 1980s, might even have been that "voluble enthusiast" but I hope not. I don't recall any announcement but noticed that the displays (Solaris back then) showed Glasgow at the A end and Edinburgh at the B. The train ran via Proof House and Aston to regain correct orientation at Wolverhampton.

 

[Taunton]

I saw that too at New Street, back in the late 1970s or early 1980s, might even have been that "voluble enthusiast" but I hope not. I don't recall any announcement but noticed that the displays (Solaris back then) showed Glasgow at the A end and Edinburgh at the B. The train ran via Proof House and Aston to regain correct orientation at Wolverhampton.

That wouldn't have quite fixed it in this case because the halves were joined reverse, but both were the 'right way round'; the two brakes, which were normally at the outer ends of the overall formation, were coupled together in the middle. It was a conundrum for how it had even got like that in the first place.

 

[norbitonflyer]

That wouldn't have quite fixed it in this case because the halves were joined reverse, but both were the 'right way round'; the two brakes, which were normally at the outer ends of the overall formation, were coupled together in the middle. It was a conundrum for how it had even got like that in the first place.

Possibly at Carstairs in the southbound direction, if the Edinburgh portion had for some reason been attached at the rear of the Glasgow? (Which is what the sleepers do)
How was it normally done so the brakes were at the ends?

 

[snowball]

At Carstairs in the 1970s the relative positions of the coaches must have got shifted around because in my experience the Edinburgh portion was always at the back - the south end when going north and the north end when going south - and comprised fewer coaches than the Glasgow portion.

Some trains had three portions: Liverpool-Glasgow, Manchester-Glasgow and Manchester-Edinburgh.

I can remember how the shunting was done on southbound trains but not on northbound ones, so I'm not sure whether individual coaches or portions underwent any reversals in the course of a diagram.

 

[AJP62]

Possibly at Carstairs in the southbound direction, if the Edinburgh portion had for some reason been attached at the rear of the Glasgow? (Which is what the sleepers do)
How was it normally done so the brakes were at the ends?

It wasn't normally done - the southbound trains ran with the Edinbugh portion on the rear being easier to shunt it there at Carstairs. The Glasgow BG would be in the centre of train.
Once back in Birmingham the portions would usually be switched at Duddeston.

 

[edwin_m]

It wasn't normally done - the southbound trains ran with the Edinbugh portion on the rear being easier to shunt it there at Carstairs. The Glasgow BG would be in the centre of train.
Once back in Birmingham the portions would usually be switched at Duddeston.

My recollection is that when splitting at Carstairs, the Edinburgh portion would simply have a diesel hooked on the rear and off it went. When joining, the Edinburgh portion went off towards Glasgow and I guess was propelled back onto the rear of the Glasgow portion. Trying to couple the other way round would have involved more shunting to avoid trapping the locomotives between the portions.

 

[zwk500]

My recollection is that when splitting at Carstairs, the Edinburgh portion would simply have a diesel hooked on the rear and off it went. When joining, the Edinburgh portion went off towards Glasgow and I guess was propelled back onto the rear of the Glasgow portion. Trying to couple the other way round would have involved more shunting to avoid trapping the locomotives between the portions.

Which is what the current Lowland Sleeper does, perhaps unsurprisingly.

 

[Taunton]

I can't recall the detail of how the two sections at Carstairs were arranged, but the refreshment car always went to and from Glasgow, so they weren't two symmetrical portions. Possibly there were three parts, a symmetrical section at each end (4 coaches?) and vehicles in the middle, including the restaurant car, which always went to Glasgow.

 

[snowball]

@edwin_m is right. In my previous post I was temporarily misremembering the location of the platforms relative to the triangle, and that made it hard for me to understand what happened northbound. But as he says it was quite simple.

My strongest memories are of being on the Edinburgh portion of a southbound train. We would call at the station, then pull forwards towards Glasgow, then the portion from Glasgow would arrive, then we would be backed onto it, and passengers would have a second opportunity to get on or off.

So every individual coach in the system would have a permanent "nearest Glasgow" end and "furthest from Glasgow" end.

 

[Helvellyn]

I can't recall the detail of how the two sections at Carstairs were arranged, but the refreshment car always went to and from Glasgow, so they weren't two symmetrical portions. Possibly there were three parts, a symmetrical section at each end (4 coaches?) and vehicles in the middle, including the restaurant car, which always went to Glasgow.

Not always. I recall late 1980s being at Carstairs having come in a portion from Edinburgh that contained the RBR (at the rear). The portion was then propelled onto the rear of the arriving portion from Glasgow. In the days of the CrossCountry "Scots" the Devon Scot also had an Aberdeen portion instead of just to Edinburgh - the catering vehicle went to Aberdeen.

I think it was 1987 or 1988 that Polmadie got allocated all the coaches for the CrossCountry splitting services, so there was obviously a need to get all coaches back to the depot for exams. If my memory is correct this was achieved by effectively forming five coach rakes - TSO-TSO-FK (or BFK)-TSO-TSO. The RBR would be attached in the middle of these two halves, and some sets also had BGs at the outer ends. When the train left Carstairs heading South the Edinburgh portion would have been propelled onto the rear at Carstairs - the next day when the set returned North (from Poole, Brighton, Paignton, Plymouth or Penzance) when the train split at Carstairs the front portion went to Glasgow (that had come from Edinburgh the day before) and the rear portion went to Edinburgh (that had come from Glasgow the day before). So effectively a four day out and back trip from its depot of Polmadie - Glasgow-South-Edinburgh-South-Glasgow. If catering vehicles and BGs were classed as loose vehicles they would be shunted at Polmadie, Craigentinny or Clayhills each night to pop them on the other end of the other coaches so they'd end up in the centre or the extremities after attachment at Carstairs.

 

[6Gman]

My recollection is that when splitting at Carstairs, the Edinburgh portion would simply have a diesel hooked on the rear and off it went. When joining, the Edinburgh portion went off towards Glasgow and I guess was propelled back onto the rear of the Glasgow portion. Trying to couple the other way round would have involved more shunting to avoid trapping the locomotives between the portions.

That is my recollection too. On the Mk IIc stock there were windows in the corridor connection so if you stood at the southern end of the Edinburgh portion you could get a (very) close-up view of the Glasgow portion looming up in front of you!!

 

[SeanG]

Wasn't there a BCK stabled permanently at Carstairs in case one of the portions didn't have a brake vehicle? How often was it used?

 

[The Crab]

Wasn't there a BCK stabled permanently at Carstairs in case one of the portions didn't have a brake vehicle? How often was it used?

I was on the Nottingham - Scotland in about 1985. A brake was removed at Sheffield and at Carstairs the BCK was attached for Edinburgh - it's condition was pretty disreputable!

 

[Falcon1200]

Wasn't there a BCK stabled permanently at Carstairs in case one of the portions didn't have a brake vehicle?

The BCK was there because a train was not allowed to start its journey without a brake vehicle, and the Edinburgh portions ran as separate trains with their own headcode, the through train going to Glasgow.

If catering vehicles and BGs were classed as loose vehicles they would be shunted at Polmadie, Craigentinny or Clayhills each night to pop them on the other end of the other coaches so they'd end up in the centre or the extremities after attachment at Carstairs.

IIRC sometimes the Glasgow portion would run to Polmadie via Shields Jc and back direct, this to turn the half-set so that the catering vehicle would be mid-train after the attachment at Carstairs, rather than at the front.

 

[jfollows]

In the 1974 (electrification) timetable there was 1M47 17:45 Glasgow/17:39 Edinburgh to Birmingham New Street which I caught once, it ran non-stop from Carstairs to Preston. Mind you, many services in that timetable already ran non-stop between Carlisle and Preston, with in-fill services making the intermediate calls.
EDIT Oops, wrong page, now corrected.

 

[delt1c]

That is my recollection too. On the Mk IIc stock there were windows in the corridor connection so if you stood at the southern end of the Edinburgh portion you could get a (very) close-up view of the Glasgow portion looming up in front of you!!

Unusual as normally as shunted stood there giving the driver directions

 

[d9009alycidon]

Not sure when I took this photo of the two portions being joined, it was dome time in the late 1980s, the buffet car is the rear coach of the Glasgow portion.

 

[6Gman]

Unusual as normally as hunter std there giving the drive directions

Plenty of room for two.

 

[30907]

In the 1974 (electrification) timetable there was 1M47 17:45 Glasgow/17:39 Edinburgh to Birmingham New Street which I caught once, it ran non-stop from Carstairs to Preston. Mind you, many services in that timetable already ran non-stop between Carlisle and Preston, with in-fill services making the intermediate calls.

....and one of 4 services through Carlisle in a short period, plus the stopper to Crewe!

 

[jfollows]

....and one of 4 services through Carlisle in a short period, plus the stopper to Crewe!

Yes:

• 1M52 17:30 Glasgow to Euston dep. 18:54
• 1M47 17:45 Glasgow/Edinburgh to Birmingham pass 19/16h
• 1M40 18:05 Glasgow to Manchester Victoria dep. 19:29
• 1M55 17:55 Edinburgh to Liverpool Lime Street dep. 19:44
• 1K17 19:55 to Crewe

 

[6Gman]

In the 1974 (electrification) timetable there was 1M47 17:45 Glasgow/17:39 Edinburgh to Birmingham New Street which I caught once, it ran non-stop from Carstairs to Preston. Mind you, many services in that timetable already ran non-stop between Carlisle and Preston, with in-fill services making the intermediate calls.
EDIT Oops, wrong page, now corrected.

Sliding through Carlisle without stopping always seemed odd.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the 1974 (electrification) timetable there was 1M47 17:45 Glasgow/17:39 Edinburgh to Birmingham New Street which I caught once, it ran non-stop from Carstairs to Preston. Mind you, many services in that timetable already ran non-stop between Carlisle and Preston, with in-fill services making the intermediate calls.
EDIT Oops, wrong page, now corrected.

I was a regular on that service too, which was also non-stop Preston-Crewe - an excellent service, except that the restaurant car always went to Glasgow.
Northbound I used the "West country" sleeper to Edinburgh from Birmingham.
Shunting at Carstairs was always the same, as described above, until HSTs turned up.
Today we have plenty of direct Carlisle-Edinburgh services, but no really fast services between Carlisle and Warrington.

 

[dubscottie]

I can't recall the detail of how the two sections at Carstairs were arranged, but the refreshment car always went to and from Glasgow, so they weren't two symmetrical portions. Possibly there were three parts, a symmetrical section at each end (4 coaches?) and vehicles in the middle, including the restaurant car, which always went to Glasgow.

The buffet car going to Glasgow only happened when the set was on its last diagram of the day.
If the set arrived about lunchtime say, and would be returning south, the buffet stayed with the Edinburgh portion as it would need to be shunted onto the other end.
There were also multiple trains that ran through to Aberdeen which kept the Buffet also.
There were some trains that would join on the East curve. I can recall trains splitting next to the prison heading towards Edinburgh. Anyone for Carstairs were told to stay in the Glasgow portion.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The buffet car going to Glasgow only happened when the set was on its last diagram of the day.
If the set arrived about lunchtime say, and would be returning south, the buffet stayed with the Edinburgh portion as it would need to be shunted onto the other end.

Not correct. The norm was Buffet - or Restaurant Car - to/from Glasgow on all trains unless there was an Aberdeen portion which required to take the buffet.
Sets were turned or re-marshalled at the southern end in order to get the buffet portion back to being front at Carstairs.

Even if the buffet had gone to Edinburgh the same procedure would have been required in the south as the Edinburgh portion was always rear going south and if not turned/remarshalled would have become the Glasgow portion on the next northbound trip.

I have checked multiple Train Marshalling books from the 70's and 80's and in every case catering vehicle to Glasgow was the norm.

 

[Taunton]

Another feature of these services in earlier years, at least on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Liverpool/Manchester trains, was the use of the early Mk2 vacuum braked SO vehicles. That's a proper SO, not a TSO, so with 2+1 seating in standard (probably still called second then) class rather than TSO 2+2, I think the last such second class vehicles built. Sometimes these were used as a surrogate dining car, just the first two bays being fully laid out for dining, and served through from the adjacent buffet car, which must therefore have been a proper buffet with a cook rather than the more common mini-buffet. There wasn't that much demand for meals on the service, but presumably some.

I don't know what sort of menu was served. Although LMR cars, possibly it was a Scottish initiative. I do recall at the same time taking an internal Scottish service, Glasgow to Aberdeen, which had a restaurant car, and (being unusually on university expenses ) we went along. The menu was quite different, and abbreviated, to what you got on services in England.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Another feature of these services in earlier years, at least on the Glasgow/Edinburgh to Liverpool/Manchester trains, was the use of the early Mk2 vacuum braked SO vehicles. That's a proper SO, not a TSO, so with 2+1 seating in standard (probably still called second then) class rather than TSO 2+2, I think the last such second class vehicles built. Sometimes these were used as a surrogate dining car, just the first two bays being fully laid out for dining, and served through from the adjacent buffet car, which must therefore have been a proper buffet with a cook rather than the more common mini-buffet. There wasn't that much demand for meals on the service, but presumably some.

I don't know what sort of menu was served. Although LMR cars, possibly it was a Scottish initiative. I do recall at the same time taking an internal Scottish service, Glasgow to Aberdeen, which had a restaurant car, and (being unusually on university expenses ) we went along. The menu was quite different, and abbreviated, to what you got on services in England.

In the early post electrification years all of the Anglo Scottish trains had a restaurant service - I'd need to check when that reduced /dropped out - normally provided by an RB and adjacent vehicle, SO often being provided - I do recall just the two bays of seating being laid out. . At weekends the RB would function as just a buffet with probably just one staff member.

Re Scottish internal restaurant car services, I think typically the staffing level was lower than on the inter regional trains (particularly to/from London) with demand being lower too, so perhaps one chef rather than two thus restricting the menu choices. At it's most basic level, on the West Highland it was a crew of three, Chef, Chief Steward and Steward.

EDIT: - most of the LMR Mk2 SOs (around a dozen) received Air Brakes (not dual), presumably a retro fit.

Further EDIT (6 hours later): By 78/79 the Liverpool and Manchester trains were running with RMB in the Glasgow portion but Birmingham maintained the Restaurant service until the early 1980s - thereafter the RB or RBRs were still in the sets but not the SOs and no mention of fluid dining seats. Previously the Marshalling book showed 30 fluid dining seats in the SO but presumably the Stewards knew typically 12 would be sufficient (maybe they laid up more tables on particular trains or on particular days).

 

[dubscottie]

Not correct. The norm was Buffet - or Restaurant Car - to/from Glasgow on all trains unless there was an Aberdeen portion which required to take the buffet.
Sets were turned or re-marshalled at the southern end in order to get the buffet portion back to being front at Carstairs.

Even if the buffet had gone to Edinburgh the same procedure would have been required in the south as the Edinburgh portion was always rear going south and if not turned/remarshalled would have become the Glasgow portion on the next northbound trip.

I have checked multiple Train Marshalling books from the 70's and 80's and in every case catering vehicle to Glasgow was the norm.

It was the case in the final years of the splitter. I was a frequent traveller on them and there are plenty of videos on YouTube.
Trains were usually 2 mini sets of TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO with the buffet in the middle.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

It was the case in the final years of the splitter. I was a frequent traveller on them and there are plenty of videos on YouTube.
Trains were usually 2 mini sets of TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO with the buffet in the middle.

Yes, I have now found such instances after further digging, in the 1987/88 marshalling book, sorry I have absolutely no recollection of this just as you may well have no recollection or, depending on your age, be unaware that norm had been catering to Glasgow for many decades until at least 1985 - there is a gap in marshalling data for 1986 so it is not clear exactly when this changed.

 

[dubscottie]

This is a page from the 12th May - 28th Sept 1986 timetable. I can't see any buffet cars staying with the Glasgow portions so it must have changed around then.