Cheshire Bus News (was East Cheshire Bus News)

[Lewisham2221]

As of this week, the former Midland Red (North)/Arriva bus station in Crewe is no longer in use.

The neighbouring garage/depot building was demolished this past year, having stood out of use for well over a decade. The bus station building will now also be demolished to allow for redevelopment, which will include a new bus station and multi storey car park. Thus is part of wider redevelopment/regeneration plans for the town centre.

A temporary bus station has opened on land immediately to the West of the site, which I think includes the former depot car park.

 

[markymark2000]

As of this week, the former Midland Red (North)/Arriva bus station in Crewe is no longer in use.

The neighbouring garage/depot building was demolished this past year, having stood out of use for well over a decade. The bus station building will now also be demolished to allow for redevelopment, which will include a new bus station and multi storey car park. Thus is part of wider redevelopment/regeneration plans for the town centre.

A temporary bus station has opened on land immediately to the West of the site, which I think includes the former depot car park.

Shame that the town is prioritising the car park though and moving the bus station further away from the shops. Cheshire East continuing their anti bus ways still.

 

[sonic2009]

Arriva Mellor minibus 4700 caught fire in Hale yesterday. Looks a write off.

It's been written off - there's a Wythenshawe bus currently over at Winsford at the moment - unsure what has gone over the opposite way.

 

[323235]

I have managed to persuade Cheshire East Council to re-extend the 1750 Macclesfield - Poynton 391/392 which used to go to Stockport to terminate in Hazel Grove.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I have managed to persuade Cheshire East Council to re-extend the 1750 Macclesfield - Poynton 391/392 which used to go to Stockport to terminate in Hazel Grove.

Good job.

 

[SeanM1997]

From Cheshire East website:
2 April 2023 first 3

• first potteries 3: timetable revised, some journeys withdrawn. Please contact first for more details.

19 February 2023 Arriva 84

• Arriva 84 - Monday to Saturday evening journeys after 19:00 and all day on Sundays no longer serve Willaston village.

13 February 2023 D&G 85

• 85 D&G: the 0741 journey from Marshfield to Crewe Railway Station will operate ten minutes later.

 

[miami]

I have managed to persuade Cheshire East Council to re-extend the 1750 Macclesfield - Poynton 391/392 which used to go to Stockport to terminate in Hazel Grove.

How did you do that, provide evidence of use? Provide evidence of social need? Were you acting as an independent citizen or on behalf of a group?

 

[323235]

I contacted the council by email to find out when the hourly service was being reinstated as I used to go to Poynton on it to see my family and they said that because the service has only got 59-63% of pre covid passengers and has had a roughly 30% cut in journeys they wouldn’t be reinstating the old service so because it is used by a regular flow of commuters from Tytherington business park to the Hazel Grove - Stockport area I asked that they extend the 1750 to Hazel Grove for onward connections into Greater Manchester. They agreed and made the necessary Vehicle and Operator Service Agency variation starting on the 1st Feb 2023.

 

[itsonlyme]

Twice recently I have just missed an 84 at Crewe bus station snd had to wait nearly an hour as the Nantwich journeys were cancelled, the only services running were the hourly journeys to Chester. In the other direction I arrived at my local stop to find a passenger who said he had been waiting over an hour and asked if the buses are on strike again? At that point a bus from Nantwich arrived.
Its a good idea having these 2.00 fares to attract passengers but Arriva you need to run.the buses as well!

 

[GusB]

Discussion of the Winsford and Macclesfield depots of Arriva is here:

Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

I cant find a thread, so I'll start one Arriva is a suspending its sale https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-arriva-m-a/deutsche-bahn-delays-possible-arriva-flotation-sale-sources-idUKKBN1X011S

www.railforums.co.uk

If you have a bit of news that is relevant to more than one thread, please only post it once.

 

[Deerfold]

Twice recently I have just missed an 84 at Crewe bus station snd had to wait nearly an hour as the Nantwich journeys were cancelled, the only services running were the hourly journeys to Chester. In the other direction I arrived at my local stop to find a passenger who said he had been waiting over an hour and asked if the buses are on strike again? At that point a bus from Nantwich arrived.
Its a good idea having these 2.00 fares to attract passengers but Arriva you need to run.the buses as well!

They don't seem to be interested in doing that.

Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

Currently an Enviro 400 MMC running on the 166 laying over at Chatham bus station. Not the heritage livery one. Currently tracking as the spare ticket machine - is this a permanent transfer to Gillingham or is it on its way to Maidstone like the recent transfers in?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[A0wen]

Shame that the town is prioritising the car park though and moving the bus station further away from the shops. Cheshire East continuing their anti bus ways still.

Except, if you bother to look at the plans, that's not what's happening at all.

Details here https://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/bus...ion-programme/royal-arcade-redevelopment.aspx

Effectively the bus station is being 'turned' 90 degrees so it faces out onto Charles Street - but to do that and the other associated building works the temporary bus station needs to be *slightly* (as in less than 50 metres) further away, because you can't have an operational bus station in an active building site.

Naturally if you've got any better ideas as to how they could have achieved what they're doing, feel free to reply - but since the only 'free' land which would have been closer to the shops is the Town Square, I'm not entirely sure that would have been a viable option.

 

[markymark2000]

Except, if you bother to look at the plans, that's not what's happening at all.

Details here https://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/bus...ion-programme/royal-arcade-redevelopment.aspx

Effectively the bus station is being 'turned' 90 degrees so it faces out onto Charles Street - but to do that and the other associated building works the temporary bus station needs to be *slightly* (as in less than 50 metres) further away, because you can't have an operational bus station in an active building site.

Naturally if you've got any better ideas as to how they could have achieved what they're doing, feel free to reply - but since the only 'free' land which would have been closer to the shops is the Town Square, I'm not entirely sure that would have been a viable option.

The bus station is still being moved away to make space for the multi story car park, whether it be 50 meters or in some cases upto 100 metres depending on the specific stand. You've also got to look at the perception that it gives that the service road for deliveries to the shops is more important than bus passengers. You could quite easily move the car park further west and put the bus station closer to the shops, instead they choose not to because car is king in Cheshire East. Or best case scenario (but unlikely to ever happen) would be for the bus station to front Queensway. Make it part of the town rather than throwing it behind shops. I am not saying move the bus station off the land completely but the plans for the available land shows that buses are not the priority as they are moving them further away and so people have to walk past the car park to get the buses.

 

[sonic2009]

We have to ultimately think who can take over the routes left by Arriva - i'm shocked that the 2 main councils haven't put out a statement or anything, saying what they are going to do. If the Depot is due to close as i've heard on the 22nd April then there isn't long left.

 

[Robertj21a]

We have to ultimately think who can take over the routes left by Arriva - i'm shocked that the 2 main councils haven't put out a statement or anything, saying what they are going to do. If the Depot is due to close as i've heard on the 22nd April then there isn't long left.

I thought the Arriva announcement was only 1-2 days ago ?

 

[markymark2000]

We have to ultimately think who can take over the routes left by Arriva - i'm shocked that the 2 main councils haven't put out a statement or anything, saying what they are going to do. If the Depot is due to close as i've heard on the 22nd April then there isn't long left.

Cheshire West Council & Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale MP) have started a petition for Arriva to stay. It's as good as doing sod all. I'm not overly shocked though

Sign the Petition

Stop Arriva's plans to cut buses from Winsford & Northwich

www.change.org

Cheshire East, I don't think the council staff have the IQ to be able to deal with such a situation. Councillors will be rubbing their hands together though and will likely have plans to downsize the new bus station 'in response to changing demand' and downgrade it to just 3 bus stops along the side of the road.

 

[A0wen]

The bus station is still being moved away to make space for the multi story car park, whether it be 50 meters or in some cases upto 100 metres depending on the specific stand. You've also got to look at the perception that it gives that the service road for deliveries to the shops is more important than bus passengers. You could quite easily move the car park further west and put the bus station closer to the shops, instead they choose not to because car is king in Cheshire East. Or best case scenario (but unlikely to ever happen) would be for the bus station to front Queensway. Make it part of the town rather than throwing it behind shops. I am not saying move the bus station off the land completely but the plans for the available land shows that buses are not the priority as they are moving them further away and so people have to walk past the car park to get the buses.

This is totally impractical.

Firstly - you can't not have the service road to the back of the restaurants / shops which are going to be built. Anyone who's worked in retail will tell you it's an utter nightmare having deliveries through the front door at the same time as you've got customers coming in and out of the store as well as being a security risk. Increasingly restrictions mean you can't do such deliveries during the day, which then adds to the staff costs as you need people on site out of hours to take the deliveries. Retail margins aren't excessive at the moment - there have already this year been 2 retail failures I can think of off the top of my head (M&Co and Paperchase) - forcing out of hours deliveries which would increase costs would simply lead to retailers leaving Crewe - if that's what you want, then fine, but that's the consequence of your suggestion.

Putting the bus station facing off to Queensway as you suggest would be similarly impractical - you'd have a load of land behind the bus station which is where you'd have to put new developments of shops etc, which would be isolated from the others and in all probability become less attractive (which is what's happened in other towns where this has been tried) and you'd need to cross a road to access them, because the bus companies will doubtless still want access to Victoria Street for departures heading north/west and Market Square for south/east departures.

Even back in the 1960s when oversized bus stations were being built, the vast majority of those were on an edge of the town centre and didn't face onto the shops - because it was impractical, unattractive and didn't usually give enough space or easy enough access - take a look at any of the new towns designed and built in the 1950s as an example - Stevenage, Harlow, Hemel Hempstead,

 

[A0wen]

We have to ultimately think who can take over the routes left by Arriva - i'm shocked that the 2 main councils haven't put out a statement or anything, saying what they are going to do. If the Depot is due to close as i've heard on the 22nd April then there isn't long left.

Until Arriva serve notice that they no longer intend to run the routes, it's not appropriate for the councils to do anything.

Additionally, Arriva only briefed their staff Monday evening - so whether they've submitted their decision to the Transport Commissioners to withdraw those services yet isn't clear. Once submitted, then the councils can start to look at replacement. Equally, other commercial operators may already be looking at what they wish to take on.

 

[sonic2009]

Until Arriva serve notice that they no longer intend to run the routes, it's not appropriate for the councils to do anything.

Additionally, Arriva only briefed their staff Monday evening - so whether they've submitted their decision to the Transport Commissioners to withdraw those services yet isn't clear. Once submitted, then the councils can start to look at replacement. Equally, other commercial operators may already be looking at what they wish to take on.

How is not appropriate for the councils to do nothing? Whilst I agree that Arriva hasn't officially served notice, you would have thought there would be some kind of statement etc. I've not seen anything from any of the local MPs for Crewe say anything yet either. On BBC Radio Stoke this morning it was mentioned that Cheshire East have no funding for the buses.

 

[markymark2000]

This is totally impractical.

Firstly - you can't not have the service road to the back of the restaurants / shops which are going to be built. Anyone who's worked in retail will tell you it's an utter nightmare having deliveries through the front door at the same time as you've got customers coming in and out of the store as well as being a security risk. Increasingly restrictions mean you can't do such deliveries during the day, which then adds to the staff costs as you need people on site out of hours to take the deliveries. Retail margins aren't excessive at the moment - there have already this year been 2 retail failures I can think of off the top of my head (M&Co and Paperchase) - forcing out of hours deliveries which would increase costs would simply lead to retailers leaving Crewe - if that's what you want, then fine, but that's the consequence of your suggestion.

You can make it a lot nicer than it is being shown. There are plenty of bus stations which have managed it. I am not saying have no service road but the service road could be created in such a way that people travelling to/from the town are not given less priority than the deliveries. Make it a service yard rather than through road or something like that. It's the equivilent of making all of your customers enter through the emergency access at the back of the shop. You wouldn't do it, it's not pleasant for customers and doesn't attract people to the store. People should be leaving the bus station and car park easily into the main area of the shops (in this case, Town Square).

At bare minimum, the bus station could have been moved more east and move the car park more west and that is keeping the service road in it's current position.

Putting the bus station facing off to Queensway as you suggest would be similarly impractical - you'd have a load of land behind the bus station which is where you'd have to put new developments of shops etc, which would be isolated from the others and in all probability become less attractive (which is what's happened in other towns where this has been tried)

What are shops though with no customers? You have to welcome in people so that the shops have customers. If you're so worried about shops being isolated, why not move the bus station out to the empty land off Dunwood Way near Mcdonalds and then dying retail can take all of the land and they can have the largest service road they want? Clearly shop deliveries are more important than the shops having customers.

If the bus station was facing Queensway, the car park would be moved back more and so would be on the land behind the bus station. You could even have a grander entrance on the corner of Queensway/Delamere Street and then set the bus station back a bit so that there is still space for some retail units facing Queensway. I could sit here all week creating better options which still have ample space for retail (bearing in mind, retail is dying in many areas, especially Crewe), bring the buses closer to the shops and means that people arriving into the town aren't forced to walk through service yards to get to the town. There's a reason why 90% of retail is built without people walking through service yards and as well as safety, it's because it's not pleasant and not a good welcome for people.

because the bus companies will doubtless still want access to Victoria Street for departures heading north/west and Market Square for south/east departures.

Buses can access Victoria Street using St Marys Street or Gatefield Street (note, they are already using Gatefield Street now to leave because the temp bus station is southbound only).

 

[A0wen]

How is not appropriate for the councils to do nothing?, whilst i agree that Arriva haven't officially served notice, you would of thought there would be some kind of statement etc, i've not seen anything from any of the local MPs for Crewe say anthing yet either. On BBC Radio Stoke this morning it was mentioned that Cheshire East have no funding for the buses.

Bit in bold - nice bit of selective quoting.

What I actually posted "Until Arriva serve notice that they no longer intend to run the routes, it's not appropriate for the councils to do anything."

These are commercial services - once the operator serves notice of withdrawal, the council can then assess whether there is anything they need to do. Example in the case of the 38 as has been pointed out elsewhere D&G already provide a service which shadows this, so unless there are some specific journeys requiring council intervention, the argument is, quite rightly, nothing to do.

The Macclesfield town services will depend on usage, what other provision is already there and what other operators choose to register commercially - if there are any gaps then the council might look at those, but at the moment whether there are any gaps is unknown. I suspect the council are, quite rightly, waiting to see what the likes of D&G, High Peak and others choose to do before making any announcements.

You can make it a lot nicer than it is being shown. There are plenty of bus stations which have managed it. I am not saying have no service road but the service road could be created in such a way that people travelling to/from the town are not given less priority than the deliveries. Make it a service yard rather than through road or something like that. It's the equivilent of making all of your customers enter through the emergency access at the back of the shop. You wouldn't do it, it's not pleasant for customers and doesn't attract people to the store. People should be leaving the bus station and car park easily into the main area of the shops (in this case, Town Square).

At bare minimum, the bus station could have been moved more east and move the car park more west and that is keeping the service road in it's current position.




What are shops though with no customers? You have to welcome in people so that the shops have customers. If you're so worried about shops being isolated, why not move the bus station out to the empty land off Dunwood Way near Mcdonalds and then dying retail can take all of the land and they can have the largest service road they want? Clearly shop deliveries are more important than the shops having customers.

If the bus station was facing Queensway, the car park would be moved back more and so would be on the land behind the bus station. You could even have a grander entrance on the corner of Queensway/Delamere Street and then set the bus station back a bit so that there is still space for some retail units facing Queensway. I could sit here all week creating better options which still have ample space for retail (bearing in mind, retail is dying in many areas, especially Crewe), bring the buses closer to the shops and means that people arriving into the town aren't forced to walk through service yards to get to the town. There's a reason why 90% of retail is built without people walking through service yards and as well as safety, it's because it's not pleasant and not a good welcome for people.



Buses can access Victoria Street using St Marys Street or Gatefield Street (note, they are already using Gatefield Street now to leave because the temp bus station is southbound only).

Bit in bold - but you actually are. There will doubtless be pedestrian priority over the service road and the service road will be *relatively* lightly used - i.e. if you have 20 units with at the most 2 deliveries a day (most shops get one delivery a day except the food supermarkets) then you're looking at 40 vehicles - assume they turn up over a 12 hour window (7am - 7pm) - then you're talking 3 vehicles an hour. The service road is also one way looking at those diagrams so will exit alongside the multi-storey car park.

And looking at Google Maps, I'm not sure Town Square is the "main area of shops" - most of them are to the north of that.

As for this "What are shops though with no customers? You have to welcome in people so that the shops have customers." - well quite. So name me one place that has put its bus station opposite the frontage of its main shops and it has a flourishing town centre (I'll wait for an answer). Part of shops being successful is knowing how your customers arrive - and whether you like it or not, the vast majority will arrive by car, then on foot and then by bus. Your approach of 'lets alienate the car users, they'll use the bus instead' simply doesn't work. Towns up and down the land have made it difficult for motorists to get to them, made it expensive to park etc etc. If your hypothesis was correct, those town centres ought to be booming and the buses being used more than ever - yet that hasn't happened.

You can crayon as many designs as you like which create "retail space" but unless you've actually spoken with or work in retailers you simply won't understand what their requirements are. It's no good revamping a town centre with a bunch of 2000-3000 sq ft units which have lousy access. For most retailers the economics of such units simply don't work. You won't attract the likes of Next, M&S, Currys, Halfords or Pets at Home (picking all of those because they are on the out of town site in Crewe) back into the town centre with small, cramped units which make it difficult for customers to arrive at.

The location of the new bus station is, in practical terms, hardly any different to the current one, yet to the immediate north will be the new units of shops and leisure. That's a pretty good position by all counts - you're niggling over 10 metres here and there.

 

[Martin2013]

Based on my limited experience of the 38 I've been unable to establish whether the D&G service on its own would be sufficient to accommodate the passengers that currently use the two services. I'd probably describe the passenger loadings when I used it as being steady and the D&G one I went on definitely seemed busy but not sure if that was artificial due to the fact D&G use smaller sized vehicles than Arriva.

Assuming that D&G continued with the 38 is it likely that they'd do any of the following out of investing in larger capacity buses or increasing the frequency to replace the lost Arriva journeys or running the late evening journeys that are currently commercial with Arriva?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Assuming that D&G continued with the 38 is it likely that they'd do any of the following out of investing in larger capacity buses or increasing the frequency to replace the lost Arriva journeys or running the late evening journeys that are currently commercial with Arriva?

The answer to both of your questions is no. The 38 has had their "suitable" buses in the form of the branded Streetlites that, in typical D&G fashion, disappeared back off to Crewe/Stoke after about 2 months. They also won't increase the frequency as there'll be no incentive to do so. In fact, expect the opposite to happen instead and Cheshire East do nothing about it.

 

[A0wen]

The answer to both of your questions is no. The 38 has had their "suitable" buses in the form of the branded streetlites that, in typical d&g fashion, disappeared back off to Crewe/Stoke after about 2 months. They also won't increase the frequency as there'll be no incentive to do so. In fact, expect the opposite to happen instead and Cheshire East do nothing about it.

Why would D&G reduce the frequency if the Arriva service is withdrawn?

Even if only 50% of the customers move over D&G win. And if it isn't a viable corridor for an hourly service, why are there currently 2 operators providing that level if service?

And since they are commercially provided services, why would the council get involved?

 

[markymark2000]

And looking at Google Maps, I'm not sure Town Square is the "main area of shops" - most of them are to the north of that.

It is the Town Square though. I'd say have the bus station moving just north of where it is now. I just thought looking over Town Square would be nicer and seemed more practical.

As for this "What are shops though with no customers? You have to welcome in people so that the shops have customers." - well quite. So name me one place that has put its bus station opposite the frontage of its main shops and it has a flourishing town centre (I'll wait for an answer). Part of shops being successful is knowing how your customers arrive - and whether you like it or not, the vast majority will arrive by car, then on foot and then by bus. Your approach of 'lets alienate the car users, they'll use the bus instead' simply doesn't work. Towns up and down the land have made it difficult for motorists to get to them, made it expensive to park etc etc. If your hypothesis was correct, those town centres ought to be booming and the buses being used more than ever - yet that hasn't happened.

Warringtons bus station is extremely busy and goes straight into the shopping centre. Runcorn Halton Lea bus stations are always quite busy and they are just up the stairs/escalator from the shopping centre. In general though, not many town centres are flourishing because of out of town retail parks.

I wouldn't mind the car park being built on top of the bus station and combine it into a larger building, I was only keeping them more separate because that is how the proposal was. You are ignoring the main point though which is stop pushing buses into back alleys as all that does is reinforce in peoples minds, don't use buses, they are inconvenient. Bus passengers should never be lower in the priority than shop deliveries, that is mostly what I am against.

You can crayon as many designs as you like which create "retail space" but unless you've actually spoken with or work in retailers you simply won't understand what their requirements are. It's no good revamping a town centre with a bunch of 2000-3000 sq ft units which have lousy access. For most retailers the economics of such units simply don't work. You won't attract the likes of Next, M&S, Currys, Halfords or Pets at Home (picking all of those because they are on the out of town site in Crewe) back into the town centre with small, cramped units which make it difficult for customers to arrive at.

You won't attract most of them retailers into any town centre anyway, let alone in Crewe. They are all happy in their units over in Grand Central.

The location of the new bus station is, in practical terms, hardly any different to the current one, yet to the immediate north will be the new units of shops and leisure. That's a pretty good position by all counts - you're niggling over 10 metres here and there.

It may not be a million miles from the existing station but the way in which bus passengers are treated does change quite a bit. They are shafted down a side street at the furthest end of town. The perception is that buses and their passengers don't matter. That perception then gets stuck in peoples mind when they consider how they travel. Travel sustainably and have to walk further from the random back alley behind all the shops. It's already a perception stuck in peoples heads that the back alleys behind shops are not nice places to be, don't go there as it's full of undesirable things and people.

The answer to both of your questions is no. The 38 has had their "suitable" buses in the form of the branded streetlites that, in typical d&g fashion, disappeared back off to Crewe/Stoke after about 2 months. They also won't increase the frequency as there'll be no incentive to do so. In fact, expect the opposite to happen instead and Cheshire East do nothing about it.

Bit like the 82, that had route branding for all of about 5 minutes. Didn't the 85 have something too at one point? I dread to think what this network will look like a in a few months with D&G in charge. Every route will have another 30% running time thrown into it and no one will travel because the journey times will be too long. D&G will then slowly run it down, similar to Chaserider by throwing out Solos on long distance interurban routes.



Crewe Bus Users Group have just posted this on their Facebook group. A press release from D&G

Crewe & District Bus Users Group. | Just received this in an email to Bus Users | Facebook

Just received this in an email to Bus Users. Press Release: D&G Bus steps in following news that Arriva are withdrawing services in Winsford and Macclesfield D&G Bus will be stepping in to run...

www.facebook.com

Press Release:
D&G Bus steps in following news that Arriva are withdrawing services in Winsford and Macclesfield
D&G Bus will be stepping in to run additional services in Cheshire from 23rd April 2023 following the announcement by Arriva that they plan to withdraw from Winsford and Macclesfield.
David Brookes, Commercial Director at D&G Bus said “local people will be worried about the future of bus travel in the area following this announcement. We’d like to reassure them that we intend to step in and cover as much of the Arriva network as we can. We’ve registered replacement services to cover the 31, 37 and 84, and we already provide a service on the 38. Timetables will be available on our website dgbus.co.uk over the next day or two.
There are some services we haven’t registered but we will be speaking to local council officers to see what else we can do to help. We can’t guarantee we can cover all the Arriva routes but we’ll make every effort to keep local buses moving in the area.”
David added, “We’re recruiting qualified bus drivers and engineers to help us keep these vital services running. D&G are an independent company that provides a personal family approach to the people that work for us, so if you would like to join D&G Bus or would like more details please contact us on 01270 252970 or 01782 332337, email us at [email protected], or come and meet us at one of our recruitment events, details of which will be released later this week.
We’re proud to be helping to keep local services running, and we look forward to welcoming new colleagues and customers on board.”

 

[A0wen]

It is the Town Square though. I'd say have the bus station moving just north of where it is now. I just thought looking over Town Square would be nicer and seemed more practical.

That's a 'so what' - it's a bit like the obsessions some people have about 'county towns' - it's utterly meaningless and irrelevant to where people want to go.

Warringtons bus station is extremely busy and goes straight into the shopping centre. Runcorn Halton Lea bus stations are always quite busy and they are just up the stairs/escalator from the shopping centre.

Warrington's has been built on a corner at one end of its shopping centre - quite a trek to the other end, far more so than Crewe for example. Runcorn was built that way - it was built as a new town, but most of those designs have aged badly and are often replaced with something quite different, mainly because the users don't like them.

In general though, not many town centres are flourishing because of out of town retail parks.

Quite - and a lot of that has been because local councils took actions to make it less attractive for motorists to head to their town centres. You haven't yet provided an example of a town where the centre is booming and they've discouraged people from driving into them - perhaps because there isn't one ?

You won't attract most of them retailers into any town centre anyway, let alone in Crewe. They are all happy in their units over in Grand Central.

Correct - so people have to view town centres differently to how they once were. And part of that has to consider how people arrive at them. If you make it hard for people to arrive by car, they'll go elsewhere and any uptake in bus use won't even begin to offset that.

It may not be a million miles from the existing station but the way in which bus passengers are treated does change quite a bit. They are shafted down a side street at the furthest end of town. The perception is that buses and their passengers don't matter. That perception then gets stuck in peoples mind when they consider how they travel. Travel sustainably and have to walk further from the random back alley behind all the shops. It's already a perception stuck in peoples heads that the back alleys behind shops are not nice places to be, don't go there as it's full of undesirable things and people.

It's not even a million inches, let alone million miles. It's almost on the site of the old bus station, just rotated so it's on a north-south axis rather than an east-west one at present. And it's going to be next door to a car park - so people arriving in cars will have to walk in the same direction as well.

I wouldn't mind the car park being built on top of the bus station and combine it into a larger building

Such designs have stopped occurring because they were unpopular. The bus stations ended up looking dingy and dirty, particularly because of the use of concrete. Since the 1990s the trend has been for bus stations to be in the open with natural light in them, making them brighter and airy - you seem to want a return to the designs of the 60s and 70s.

Bus passengers should never be lower in the priority than shop deliveries, that is mostly what I am against.

I don't think that's the choice that's being made. But there are two things which need to be met - a safe walking route from the bus station to the shops and also access to the service area at the back of the stores. And as I pointed out, that service road will likely see about 3 vehicles an hour, so it's hardly going to be stopping a huge flow of people for extended periods of time. It'll be easier to cross that than pretty much any other road in Crewe town centre.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why would D&G reduce the frequency if the Arriva service is withdrawn?

You obviously know nothing of D&G and their tactics. When they took over the 88 from Arriva's temporary operations following the collapse of GHA, Knutsford to Altrincham was timed at 55 minutes, which was still quite generous outside of peak hours. Today, I believe it's around 1h 10m, despite a slight route change in Knutsford that on a bad day adds 5 minutes. So now, instead of hourly, you're looking at an erratic schedule with less frequency. The 88 wasn't the first and won't be the last.

 

[A0wen]

You obviously know nothing of D&G and their tactics. When they took over the 88 from Arriva's temporary operations following the collapse of GHA, Knutsford to Altrincham was timed at 55 minutes, which was still quite generous outside of peak hours. Today, I believe it's around 1h 10m, despite a slight route change in Knutsford that on a bad day adds 5 minutes. So now, instead of hourly, you're looking at an erratic schedule with less frequency. The 88 wasn't the first and won't be the last.

Well, looking at their current timetable it's a pretty consistent hourly service - M-F from Altrincham leave at 7.03, 8.30, then 45 past the hour from 9-2, then 15.55 and xx.50 for the last 3 journeys.

On a Saturday it's a consistent xx.45 departure from Altrincham.

Going the other way from Knutsford it's 07.10, 08.20, 09.25 then xx.30 from 10 - 1, xx.35 from 2 - 5pm then 19.05. Saturday is a consistent xx.30 departure.

I assume some of the morning / afternoon timings are driven a bit by local school times - they don't want to be leaving a couple of minutes before the end of the school day for example. Whereas weekends are more consistent.

Their timetable seems pretty reasonable - the route isn't direct in that it goes via Wilmslow. Google Maps reckons a car journey from Altrincham to Wilmslow via Hale Barns is 25 mins, the bus timetable is about 30 mins - reasonable given that allows for 5 stops of 1 minute each.

From Wilmslow to Knutsford the car is about 25 mins, the bus is about 35 mins - again allowing for stops that's not unreasonable.

 

[Simon75]

It is the Town Square though. I'd say have the bus station moving just north of where it is now. I just thought looking over Town Square would be nicer and seemed more practical.


Warringtons bus station is extremely busy and goes straight into the shopping centre. Runcorn Halton Lea bus stations are always quite busy and they are just up the stairs/escalator from the shopping centre. In general though, not many town centres are flourishing because of out of town retail parks.

I wouldn't mind the car park being built on top of the bus station and combine it into a larger building, I was only keeping them more separate because that is how the proposal was. You are ignoring the main point though which is stop pushing buses into back alleys as all that does is reinforce in peoples minds, don't use buses, they are inconvenient. Bus passengers should never be lower in the priority than shop deliveries, that is mostly what I am against.


You won't attract most of them retailers into any town centre anyway, let alone in Crewe. They are all happy in their units over in Grand Central.


It may not be a million miles from the existing station but the way in which bus passengers are treated does change quite a bit. They are shafted down a side street at the furthest end of town. The perception is that buses and their passengers don't matter. That perception then gets stuck in peoples mind when they consider how they travel. Travel sustainably and have to walk further from the random back alley behind all the shops. It's already a perception stuck in peoples heads that the back alleys behind shops are not nice places to be, don't go there as it's full of undesirable things and people.


Bit like the 82, that had route branding for all of about 5 minutes. Didn't the 85 have something too at one point? I dread to think what this network will look like a in a few months with D&G in charge. Every route will have another 30% running time thrown into it and no one will travel because the journey times will be too long. D&G will then slowly run it down, similar to Chaserider by throwing out Solos on long distance interurban routes.



Crewe Bus Users Group have just posted this on their Facebook group. A press release from D&G

Crewe & District Bus Users Group. | Just received this in an email to Bus Users | Facebook

Just received this in an email to Bus Users. Press Release: D&G Bus steps in following news that Arriva are withdrawing services in Winsford and Macclesfield D&G Bus will be stepping in to run...

www.facebook.com

The 84 at least (Chester extension), needs double deckers, 31 and 37 at a push need them (D&G have none thought they could source from elsewhere in the Centrebus group )

With the actual Arriva Depots, they could be bought/leased afterwards (Stagecoach leased Arriva Guildford, after it closed, unless they wanted a different site

 

[daodao]

The 84 at least (Chester extension), needs double deckers, 31 and 37 at a push need them

Really??? Double-deckers are only needed for the most intense bus services such as route 192 from Manchester to Hazel Grove, and even then not in the evenings.