Chiltern tender for 20 - 70 units

[Snow1964]

Seems that says Chiltern have tendered for 20 - 70 units
new or refurbished

Probably needs separate discussion, so opening a thread

Description​

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited (Chiltern), further to notices 000-026866and 000-026867, is now also seeking proposals from established rolling stock manufacturers, owners and modifiers for the supply of between 20 and 70 new or converted low emission rolling stock multiple units, and associated maintenance, infrastructure and depot upgrade services. This rolling stock must achieve a meaningful reduction in the exhaust emissions and exterior noise levels compared to Chiltern's existing diesel multiple units, particularly in urban areas. For the avoidance of doubt, notices 000-026866 and 000-026867 for battery electric multiple units remain live and active; and are independent and separate procurements to this notice. The subject of this procurement notice does not include full battery electric multiple units. Chiltern is now seeking offers for other low emissions solutions as a possible alternative or in addition to full battery electric multiple units. This notice does not relate to the financing of Rolling Stock, Chiltern may separately seek a financer to support the purchase. Interested parties should register their interest to participate via the email address listed above. This is an advertised private procurement, which shall be conducted in accordance with the terms of Chiltern's procurement policy.

Total Quantity or Scope​

Chiltern operate passenger rail services over lines within the Chilterns and Midlands areas of England under a National Rail Contract agreed with the UK's Secretary of State for Transport. Chiltern is assessing its rolling stock strategy and in particular, the supply of rolling stock that can achieve low emission operation. Chiltern is seeking to invite expressions of interest and tenders for the supply of low emission rolling stock (new or converted) to operate passenger services. The rolling stock may be purchased together with selected maintenance services, and any refuelling infrastructure and any modifications and upgrades to the maintenance locations as necessitated by the proposed solution. Interested parties should register their interest in taking part by emailing [email protected] to receive further information. A supplier selection stage will be used to evaluate applicants' suitability to proceed to the tendering stages. Responders should have the technical capability and competency to manufacture, test, certify and maintain low emission rolling stock. Interested parties should note Chiltern is undertaking this new procurement in parallel with the existing procurement processes relating to the supply of new or re- manufactured battery electrical multiple units (notices 000-026866 and 000-026867). Chiltern reserves the right, working with the DfT, to select any or none of the combination of new or converted rolling stock solutions. Partaking in this procurement process may not result in any contract award and suppliers partake at their own cost and risk.

Low Emissions Rolling Stock (New or Converted) for Chiltern Railways [Tender Notice]

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited (Chiltern), further to notices 000-026866 and 000-026867, is no... A Tender Notice by Chiltern Railway. Value £400M.

bidstats.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

"New or refurbished".

A convenient fact is that Northern have 16 170s and 58 195s, adding up to 74 which is remarkably close to 70 (EMR might I guess be happy to take the spare 4 170s).

Could we be looking at a single DMU fleet for Northern, with their other modern diesel units going to Chiltern?

 

[Snow1964]

Tender value estimated at £400m

Not sure of current prices, but 70 units works out at £5.7m per unit, so wouldn't have thought could get more than 2car units for that price (and even getting 2car for that price might be a struggle)

From memory Chiltern have 28 2car and 11 3car units (although one or two might be dead) which is 89 vehicles. The initial 168s (5x 4car) were similar. Later built batches of 168s were closer to turbostars

 

[JonathanH]

Does the presence of so many tender processes at the same time does suggest that different options are being considered across the industry to assess the cost of 'new' vs 'old' with then only some of them proceeding?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tender value estimated at £400m

Not sure of current prices, but 70 units works out at £5.7m per unit, so wouldn't have thought could get more than 2car units for that price (and even getting 2car for that price might be a struggle)

New perhaps, but it does rather seem like Northern's existing post-privatisation fleet would be a toe-in (minus 4 170s, but I'm sure EMR would kill for those), leaving Northern with a single DMU fleet from this new procurement which would have some advantages.

One other thought is that there are 51 185s.

Does the presence of so many tender processes at the same time does suggest that different options are being considered across the industry to assess the cost of 'new' vs 'old' with then only some of them proceeding?

That's also a possibility, I guess.

 

[Snow1964]

Could this be a shuffle of the fleet to oust the mk3 coaches, some of which are 45 years old, even though it says replace existing DMUs

Not clear if the separate Battery EMU tender will happen, ultimately going to depend on relative value (or price if Treasury meddles)

But about 89 class 165 vehicles and around 31 mk3 is 120 vehicles, and if add in first batch of 168s get 140 vehicles.

20-70 replacement units is minimum 40 vehicles, or 140 vehicles (if 70 x 2car)

 

[Bletchleyite]

They want to replace the 165s as they are proving unreliable and hard to get spares for. The 168s have plenty left in them and are about to get a refurb. And yes, the Mk3s need to go.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

A convenient fact is that Northern have 16 170s and 58 195s, adding up to 74 which is remarkably close to 70 (EMR might I guess be happy to take the spare 4 170s).

Could we be looking at a single DMU fleet for Northern, with their other modern diesel units going to Chiltern?

I would happily accept that as someone in Northern Sprinter land.

One other thought is that there are 51 185s.

There's gonna be plenty of places where the numbers add up (and can 185s be described as low emission, aren't they the opposite?)

 

[Energy]

Does the presence of so many tender processes at the same time does suggest that different options are being considered across the industry to assess the cost of 'new' vs 'old' with then only some of them proceeding?

Chiltern have a few independent ones open for low emission and zero emissions battery trains. They'll be comparing costs for future rolling stock.

Could this be a shuffle of the fleet to oust the mk3 coaches, some of which are 45 years old, even though it says replace existing DMUs

Not clear if the separate Battery EMU tender will happen, ultimately going to depend on relative value (or price if Treasury meddles)

But about 89 class 165 vehicles and around 31 mk3 is 120 vehicles, and if add in first batch of 168s get 140 vehicles.

20-70 replacement units is minimum 40 vehicles, or 140 vehicles (if 70 x 2car)

The 20-70 range will be to allow bidders to propose both full length units (around 120m) and 2 x half length units (around 60m). Going of the £400m estimated value it looks like complete fleet replacement is in mind.

The 168s have plenty left in them and are about to get a refurb.

Seat covers, carpets, deep cleaning, repaint and ATP removal. Not an extensive refurbishment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seat covers, carpets, deep cleaning, repaint and ATP removal. Not an extensive refurbishment.

That's a shame, as most of the seatback tables are knackered and in need of replacement, whereas the covers seem to all be in good condition!

 

[Snow1964]

Re-reading the tender, it doesn't actually say diesel multiple units.

Appears as long as the noise and exhaust emissions are lower than currently, any refurbished unit is acceptable. On face of it something like a 222 would appear to be valid, provided it was fitted with something like an Eminox exhaust upgrade.

These exhaust upgrade units are how many euroIV and euroV buses have been modified and upgraded to meet Low emissions zones.

Eminox have a webpage on upgrading rail exhausts (I suspect other companies are also available)

Rail - Eminox

Eminox emissions reduction technologies offer the rail industry full compliance to the latest global legislative standards.

eminox.com

 

[MattRat]

Why does refurbished make everyone jump to clapped out old rubbish, unfit for purpose, or messing with Northern again, when they already have a plan mentioned multiple times on this very forum. Chiltern is a London to Birmingham operator. Not the premier one, but it counts. And even if the DFT can also be called the DaFT, London has a habit of getting a free pass from their stupidity. They even dragged First to improve the Avanti service, because it serves the capital.

Side note: I predict the spare 170s WON'T go to XC to boost capacity.

 

[Energy]

Re-reading the tender, it doesn't actually say diesel multiple units.

Appears as long as the noise and exhaust emissions are lower than currently, any refurbished unit is acceptable. On face of it something like a 222 would appear to be valid, provided it was fitted with something like an Eminox exhaust upgrade.

These exhaust upgrade units are how many euroIV and euroV buses have been modified and upgraded to meet Low emissions zones.

Eminox have a webpage on upgrading rail exhausts (I suspect other companies are also available)

Rail - Eminox

Eminox emissions reduction technologies offer the rail industry full compliance to the latest global legislative standards.

eminox.com

Yes, the Southeastern tender also allowed existing rolling stock. The eminox solution is to reduce NOx and other particulates to make the engine Stage V compliant. It doesn't help with noise pollution which is also mentioned.

The tender is a rolling stock and spares supply agreement with finance sorted seperately. The finance sorted seperately would make it difficult for a ROSCO to reuse existing stock unless it wanted to sell it on as well. The £400m estimated value also suggests new build.

Pricing is difficult as most projects either don't have the price public or include depots but Azerbaijan Railways paid €115m for 10 5 car diesel/electric FLIRTs so £400m could get you 35-40 6 car 755s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tender is written for new build stock

It's not. It very clearly states new or converted.

 

[Energy]

It's not. It very clearly states new or converted.

And the rest of the tender is written with new build in mind. Any ROSCO wanting to reuse stock would have to sell it on as financing is sorted seperately.

Chiltern have already learnt from the 168 and 165 hybridisation projects, I'd be very suprised if they'd go for converted units.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, the Southeastern tender also allowed existing rolling stock. The eminox solution is to reduce NOx and other particulates to make the engine Stage V compliant. It doesn't help with noise pollution which is also mentioned.

I am in no way qualified to make comments on noise, but if altering the exhausts to reduce emissions, could they be made quieter too (adding silencers or mufflers as they call them in US)

I don't know if the noise is worst from the engines of a 222 than the current Chiltern DMUs, or if it only worse from something else (exhausts, radiators etc). Cutting noise overall is suppressing the loudest part, no point altering parts that are drowned out.

If a 222 can be modified to meet the reduced noise and exhaust emissions then would seem good fit to replace the aging mark3s and relatively noisy 68s, and take over some other longer workings thus allowing Chiltern to shuffle some of its other fleet.

 

[jackot]

Chiltern have already learnt from the 168 and 165 hybridisation projects, I'd be very suprised if they'd go for converted units.

By 'converted' units, this likely isn't referring to some complex hybridisation or such, but rather a train with a few additional modifications like an Eminox exhaust system as mentioned above with SCR to reduce emissions. This is a way simpler modification than adding batteries or anything like that, and has already been succesful before - I believe SWR have a 159 fitted with the system as well. It could quite easily bring any DMU on the market up to Stage V requirements.

I am in no way qualified to make comments on noise, but if altering the exhausts to reduce emissions, could they be made quieter too (adding silencers or mufflers as they call them in US)

I don't know if the noise is worst from the engines of a 222 than the current Chiltern DMUs, or if it only worse from something else (exhausts, radiators etc). Cutting noise overall is suppressing the loudest part, no point altering parts that are drowned out.

If a 222 can be modified to meet the reduced noise and exhaust emissions then would seem good fit to replace the aging mark3s and relatively noisy 68s, and take over some other longer workings thus allowing Chiltern to shuffle some of its other fleet.

Yes a 222 is louder than a 168 or a 165, but I would absolutely think this can be improved by mufflers and silencers, as part of an exhaust upgrade as you said - same goes with any other train. 180s, 221s and 222s all have the same engine, yet vary in noise massively due to the exhaust system. The part about noise as a requirement makes me think it is to replace the 68s despite it saying it is for DMU replacement, simply because the rest of the fleet is no louder than most DMUs in the country so I can't see why it would be so noteworthy.

 

[AzureOtsu]

By 'converted' units, this likely isn't referring to some complex hybridisation or such, but rather a train with a few additional modifications like an Eminox exhaust system as mentioned above with SCR to reduce emissions. This is a way simpler modification than adding batteries or anything like that, and has already been succesful before - I believe SWR have a 159 fitted with the system as well. It could quite easily bring any DMU on the market up to Stage V requirements.


Yes a 222 is louder than a 168 or a 165, but I would absolutely think this can be improved by mufflers and silencers, as part of an exhaust upgrade as you said - same goes with any other train. 180s, 221s and 222s all have the same engine, yet vary in noise massively due to the exhaust system. The part about noise as a requirement makes me think it is to replace the 68s despite it saying it is for DMU replacement, simply because the rest of the fleet is no louder than most DMUs in the country so I can't see why it would be so noteworthy.

I don't think an intercity train like a 222 would be fit to replace the 165s, assuming that's what the tender is for. I think something more conventional with 2/3 doors is more likely to be considered

 

[Snow1964]

I don't think an intercity train like a 222 would be fit to replace the 165s, assuming that's what the tender is for. I think something more conventional with 2/3 doors is more likely to be considered

My hunch is it is to replace the oldest stock which is the mark 3s

The mark 3 coaches vary in age, but are 40-46 years old
The mark 3 DVTs are about 34-35 years old
The 165s are about 32-33 years old

From economic viewpoint, probably considering withdrawing 2-5 class 165s to be parted out for spares, which could be backfilled from converting some of the longer distance services currently worked by DMU fleet.

A train like a 222 wouldn't be directly for replacing 165s

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is known that Chiltern want to replace the 165s.

 

[RobShipway]

In replacing the class 165 2+3 car units, that is replacing 89 coaches, as Chiltern have 28 two car and 11 3 car class 165 units. From that 11 of the 28 class 165 2 car units, these would operate alongside the 11 3-car class 165 units, which leaves you 17 units. This would be 8 trains with 2 + 2car class 165 units, leaving one spare class 165 2 car unit. So with just replacing the Chiltern class 165 units, you are looking at 18 4 - 5 car trains, with one acting as a spare unit.

Now you have got 23 stored class 769 units, but you would have to electrify the route out of Marlybone. I know in the past that it has been discussed that doing this with OHLE, may not be possible. But what about 3rd rail?

Even if class 769 units are not used, then possibly Stadler flirt tri-mode or similar Alstom Aventra or CAF Civity train to replace the class 165 units?

 

[Energy]

I am in no way qualified to make comments on noise, but if altering the exhausts to reduce emissions, could they be made quieter too (adding silencers or mufflers as they call them in US)

I'd be suprised if they didn't already have silencers, you can certainly tell when a car doesn't have a silencer.

I don't know if the noise is worst from the engines of a 222 than the current Chiltern DMUs, or if it only worse from something else (exhausts, radiators etc). Cutting noise overall is suppressing the loudest part, no point altering parts that are drowned out.

Turbostars aren't particularly loud, they are fairly small engines. Beating them would be difficult without using a hybrid system.

By 'converted' units, this likely isn't referring to some complex hybridisation or such, but rather a train with a few additional modifications like an Eminox exhaust system as mentioned above with SCR to reduce emissions

I think converted means either but they aren't likely to accept anything more involved than the Eminox system.

My hunch is it is to replace the oldest stock which is the mark 3s

The mark 3 coaches vary in age, but are 40-46 years old
The mark 3 DVTs are about 34-35 years old
The 165s are about 32-33 years old

It'll be in 2028 so it'll be at least 165 and mk3 otherwise they'd end up doing effectively the same procurement again for the 165s.

Chiltern doesn't need intercity stock, it only got the mk3s because they were what was available. 222s wouldn't be cheap to operate.

A train like a 222 wouldn't be directly for replacing 165s

A 222 wouldn't be amazingly suited to replacing 168s for a cascade either. The mk3s are generally given a minute or two longer to board than the 168s.

Now you have got 23 stored class 769 units, but you would have to electrify the route out of Marlybone.

No chance anyone will sign of on the 769s, they barely work and aren't quick. They also can do 100mph, the 165s can't either but Chiltern would want this on any new stock so it can be used on the mainline.

But what about 3rd rail?

Uckfield can't get 3rd rail, no chance for Chiltern.

 

[12LDA28C]

Re-reading the tender, it doesn't actually say diesel multiple units.

Appears as long as the noise and exhaust emissions are lower than currently, any refurbished unit is acceptable. On face of it something like a 222 would appear to be valid, provided it was fitted with something like an Eminox exhaust upgrade.

222s will not be going to Chiltern

My hunch is it is to replace the oldest stock which is the mark 3s

The mark 3 coaches vary in age, but are 40-46 years old
The mark 3 DVTs are about 34-35 years old
The 165s are about 32-33 years old

From economic viewpoint, probably considering withdrawing 2-5 class 165s to be parted out for spares, which could be backfilled from converting some of the longer distance services currently worked by DMU fleet.

A train like a 222 wouldn't be directly for replacing 165s

It's to replace the 165s. The Mark 3 LHCS needs to be replaced ASAP and options are already being explored - waiting 4 to 5 years for these new trains, whatever they may be is not an option.

 

[A0wen]

Now you have got 23 stored class 769 units, but you would have to electrify the route out of Marlybone. I know in the past that it has been discussed that doing this with OHLE, may not be possible. But what about 3rd rail?

Even if class 769 units are not used, then possibly Stadler flirt tri-mode or similar Alstom Aventra or CAF Civity train to replace the class 165 units?

Bit in bold.

No. Absolutely not. The ORR might wear short extensions to 3rd rail, but not significant new installation away from existing 3rd rail.

If Chiltern gets electrified the NR rails will be 25kv or nothing.

 

[Snow1964]

It is known that Chiltern want to replace the 165s.

Wasn't there also an announcement in April that some sort of deed of variation in DfT contract with Chiltern would take place, as it is intended that Chiltern will run the initial East West service from Oxford. Presumably this adds to their rolling stock requirements.

"New or refurbished".

A convenient fact is that Northern have 16 170s and 58 195s, adding up to 74 which is remarkably close to 70 (EMR might I guess be happy to take the spare 4 170s).

Could we be looking at a single DMU fleet for Northern, with their other modern diesel units going to Chiltern?

I guess a lot depends on timescales, Northern will probably be looking to replace their 150s, 156s first, so could easily be 4-6 years before they would be prepared to release any 195s

CAF could probably build more class 196 or 197 DMUs quickly, and what is basically extra batch eliminates any testing and development risk of delays. Although there is general question of how much longer more brand new pure diesel units will be acceptable (and I think once all the remaining BR era stock has replacements, the window will be closed forever).

With separate battery EMU tender, and need to replace the aging mark3s there is a serious risk that Chiltern ends up with a whole series of micro-fleets in few years time. Could then end up even more messy fleet if some of its network is electrified in 10-15 years time.

 

[JamesT]

Wasn't there also an announcement in April that some sort of deed of variation in DfT contract with Chiltern would take place, as it is intended that Chiltern will run the initial East West service from Oxford. Presumably this adds to their rolling stock requirements.

It’s been stated in other threads that the initial East West service will be run with 196s loaned from WMR.

 

[Neptune]

I guess a lot depends on timescales, Northern will probably be looking to replace their 150s, 156s first, so could easily be 4-6 years before they would be prepared to release any 195s

Northern are not off leasing any 195’s. The new train order for Northern is for 15x unit replacement.

 

[Snow1964]

Just noticed Chiltern published an addendum notice 11th August to the 7th August tender, seems to be amending closing date to Friday 15th September, from Monday 4th September

Description​

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited (Chiltern), further to notices 000-026866and 000-026867, is now also seeking proposals from established rolling stock manufacturers, owners and modifiers for the supply of between 20 and 70 new or converted low emission rolling stock multiple units, and associated maintenance, infrastructure and depot upgrade services. This rolling stock must achieve a meaningful reduction in the exhaust emissions and exterior noise levels compared to Chiltern's existing diesel multiple units, particularly in urban areas. For the avoidance of doubt, notices 000-026866 and 000-026867 for battery electric multiple units remain live and active; and are independent and separate procurements to this notice. The subject of this procurement notice does not include full battery electric multiple units. Chiltern is now seeking offers for other low emissions solutions as a possible alternative or in addition to full battery electric multiple units. This notice does not relate to the financing of Rolling Stock, Chiltern may separately seek a financer to support the purchase. Interested parties should register their interest to participate via the email address listed above. This is an advertised private procurement, which shall be conducted in accordance with the terms of Chiltern's procurement policy.

Ammendments to Previous Notice​

2. Time limit for receipt of tenders or requests to participate​

Mon Fri Sep 4 15 09:00:00 2023

CPV Codes​

• 34620000 - Rolling stock

Other Information​

** PREVIEW NOTICE, please check Find a Tender for full details. **

Low Emissions Rolling Stock (New or Converted) for Chiltern Railways [Addendum]

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited (Chiltern), further to notices 000-026866 and 000-026867, is no... A Addendum Notice by Chiltern Railway.

bidstats.uk

 

[InTheEastMids]

Just noticed Chiltern published an addendum notice 11th August to the 7th August tender, seems to be amending closing date to Friday 15th September, from Monday 4th September

Low Emissions Rolling Stock (New or Converted) for Chiltern Railways [Addendum]

The Chiltern Railway Company Limited (Chiltern), further to notices 000-026866 and 000-026867, is no... A Addendum Notice by Chiltern Railway.

bidstats.uk

To be honest, the original timescale looks naive in apparently not realising that people at bidding organisations have summer holidays too. A closing date just after a bank holiday?
They shouldn't be that daft so they must have expected to give an extension and what they didn't want to do was say 15/09 and then be pressed for further extensions to the end of September.

From a bidder's perspective, if key people are on holiday during the bid, then it creates risks that are quite likely to lead to a No Bid decision.
1. Poor technical proposal that is either non-compliant or low-scoring -> not worth the effort -> don't bid
2. Poor commercial proposal that creates risk and potential for large losses on the contract -> don't bid

I wouldn't be surprised if multiple bidders have asked for an extension.

 

[Rhydgaled]

"New or refurbished".

A convenient fact is that Northern have 16 170s and 58 195s, adding up to 74 which is remarkably close to 70 (EMR might I guess be happy to take the spare 4 170s).

Could we be looking at a single DMU fleet for Northern, with their other modern diesel units going to Chiltern?

Does it actually say "New or refurbished" anywhere? I only can find "new or converted". This also isn't just about replacing the 68s; the replacement fleet must offer a reduction in emissions "compared to Chiltern's existing diesel multiple units". Chiltern's existing DMU fleet includes 168s, some of which had a previous life as 170s, so ex-Northern class 170s would not fit the bill. Of course, it's possible the relevant ROSCOs may propose converting 170s (and/or Chiltern's existing 168s) to deliver the required emissions reduction but a 'refurbishment' in the normal sense of the word doesn't cut it.

Could this be a shuffle of the fleet to oust the mk3 coaches, some of which are 45 years old, even though it says replace existing DMUs

The mark 3s may be 45 years old, but they have had substantial life-extension work done (such as fitting power doors) - does anyone know how many extra years life that work was intended to give?

can 185s be described as low emission, aren't they the opposite?

That may depend on what emissions you are concerned about. I understand (perhaps incorrectly) the 185s have poor fuel efficiency, which in turn means high greenhouse gas emissions. However, they may burn that fuel very cleanly (with low particulate emissions); I have no idea.

It's not. It very clearly states new or converted.

And the rest of the tender is written with new build in mind. Any ROSCO wanting to reuse stock would have to sell it on as financing is sorted seperately.

Are the quotes in post #1 the full invitation to tender, or is there more somewhere? Assuming that post #1 does show all of it, then the relevant bit appears to be "This notice does not relate to the financing of Rolling Stock, Chiltern may separately seek a financer to support the purchase." Note the use of the word may, which I have emphasised with bold type in the quote. Presumably leasing existing stock would not require financing and so in that event Chiltern would not need to seek a financer.

Chiltern doesn't need intercity stock, it only got the mk3s because they were what was available. 222s wouldn't be cheap to operate.

Agreed, it doesn't need 125mph stock (such as the space-eating streamlined cabs on the 222s or mark 3 DVTs) or the enhanced catering offer provided on some intercity stock, but the faster Birmingham services do include longish non-stop runs (over 30mins before the 1st stop out of Marylebone I think). The service would therefore benefit from stock with single-width doors (like a 444 or 175) rather than the 1300mm double doors on something like a 168 or 195.

Absolutely not. The ORR might wear short extensions to 3rd rail, but not significant new installation away from existing 3rd rail.

If Chiltern gets electrified the NR rails will be 25kv or nothing.

I agree that most Chiltern electrification would be 25kv, but there's a small possibility that 3rd rail may be considered the more-practical solution for the Aylesbury route since that is not entirely away from existing 3rd rail (ok, it's actually London Underground so presumably 4 rails rather than just three, but aren't there sections south of London where National Rail 3rd rail stock runs on LU 4-rail infrustructure?).

CAF could probably build more class 196 or 197 DMUs quickly, and what is basically extra batch eliminates any testing and development risk of delays. Although there is general question of how much longer more brand new pure diesel units will be acceptable (and I think once all the remaining BR era stock has replacements, the window will be closed forever).

With separate battery EMU tender, and need to replace the aging mark3s there is a serious risk that Chiltern ends up with a whole series of micro-fleets in few years time. Could then end up even more messy fleet if some of its network is electrified in 10-15 years time.

Brand-new pure-diesel units (along with brand-new hydrogen or battery units unless they also have 25kv capability) are already unacceptable to me, and have been since I took a good look at the map in Network Rail's TDNS. I therefore find that fact that this tender (unlike the Northern one) does not specify multi-mode units rather worrying. Maybe it had to be written how it was to allow for existing pure-diesel units to be used, but any brand-new stock that is not electrifiction-ready is a very bad thing in my view. The TDNS shows us where Network Rail thinks the railway should be in a net-zero Britain, and there is very little use for stock that is not capable of electric operation from 25kv or 3rd rail. Thus, if we are to reach net-zero by 2050 we must assume implementation of TDNS by then, which means electrification of ALL (not just some) of Chiltern's network in under 30 years. The TDNS document that has been made public was only an interim report, which didn't include prioritisation of routes, but in my view Basingstoke - Reading and Didcot - Oxford - Leamington Spa - Coventry should be right near the top of the list. That would of course impact the Chiltern mainline, hopefully in as little as 5 years time let alone 10.

Northern are not off leasing any 195’s. The new train order for Northern is for 15x unit replacement.

The Northern tender also includes options for a great many possible additional new units. The plan at the moment probably doesn't involve Northern off-leasing 195s, but the tender appears to allow for them to be replaced if plans change