Chiltern to Worcester?

[GingerSte]

Depending on my work patterns, I've been known to get either the morning Chiltern service from Kidderminster to Birmingham SH, or the evening service back to Kiddie. It surprises me that they don't run to/from Worcester, as it would be a large market for them.

Is there any particular reason why they don't, or any possibility that they would?

In the longer term, when HS2 has taken some of the London traffic, could this be something of an alternative revenue source?

 

[TheWalrus]

Not sure they would when there is a faster GWR service from Worcester to London Paddington. I assume the Chiltern service is to link Kidderminster to London so wouldn’t be much point extending to Worcester.

 

[30907]

The depot for these sets is Stourbridge Jn, chosen presumably because there was space for it. Running empty out to KID in marginal time is presumably profitable for Chiltern.

 

[GingerSte]

Not sure they would when there is a faster GWR service from Worcester to London Paddington. I assume the Chiltern service is to link Kidderminster to London so wouldn’t be much point extending to Worcester.

The same argument applies to existing Chiltern services between Birmingham and London, as do the same responses about extra capacity, competition, alternative routes in disruption, etc.

A quick comparison:

Worcester to London direct: 2:17 (first train that appeared on NRE).

Worcester to Kidderminster: 0:21
Kidderminster to London: 2:28 (Note: this includes a lot of stops, and is not their fastest service between Brum and London)
Worcester to London via Kidderminster: 2:49

In any case, I would have thought the primary market for (at least the extended bit to Worcester) would be Worcester to Birmingham commuting, rather than London. I know that the 07:50 arrival into Birmingham Snow Hill gets very busy.

30907's comment about Stourbridge Junction still holds for Worcester instead of Kiddie, albeit with a little extra mileage.

 

[TheWalrus]

Like you say, most passengers from Worcester on this route would probably be going to Birmingham, for which there are services provided by another operator.
I think a large city the size of Birmingham probably justifies two routes to London, serving different communities with a comparable end to end journey time. Not sure if Worcester would really justify a second London route, via Birmingham especially as I believe I read there are new plans to further improve the Cotswolds Line to London Paddington.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The intent when Shooter was there was to go to Worcester with a bid for the Snow Hill lines before LM got them. Didn't happen for various reasons, then the Cotswold line got massively upgraded, Kidderminster got a turnback siding and Chiltern built a chord to serve Oxford. It's fair to say that circumstances and priorities have changed massively over the past decade or so.

 

[PartyOperator]

Like you say, most passengers from Worcester on this route would probably be going to Birmingham, for which there are services provided by another operator.
I think a large city the size of Birmingham probably justifies two routes to London, serving different communities with a comparable end to end journey time. Not sure if Worcester would really justify a second London route, via Birmingham especially as I believe I read there are new plans to further improve the Cotswolds Line to London Paddington.

Worcester already has a reasonable alternative to GWR via a change at New Street. Getting a fast(ish) train to New Street via Bromsgrove/University and changing onto a fast Avanti train down to Euston is almost certainly going to be preferable to a slow Chiltern train and can be quite cheap with advance tickets. In the longer term, HS2 will give a quicker alternative to the direct train from Worcester and further increase Worcester-Birmingham demand (especially to Moor Street). Hopefully the Bordesley Chords and an expanded Moor Street happen.

 

[VT 390]

I really don't see any benifits of extending Chiltern to Worcester as the London routes are quicker via 2 other routes and if you want a really cheap ticket you can change on to London Northwestern at New Street, so the only thing which Chiltern to Worcester would really help would be peak capacity in to Birmingham but this is quicker via Bromsgrove and new trains with more capacity are coming to that route. It would provide more capacity on the Snow Hill route to Worcester but most passengers from Worcester via Kidderminster won't be going all the way to Birmingham.

 

[PTR 444]

Slightly OT but in the spirit of the thread title, I think a better idea would be to have the Chiltern franchise take over all local services on the Snow Hill Lines. That way, Chiltern would serve Worcester while keeping the London - Birmingham services as they are. This would also allow greater flexibility for timetabling as the Chiltern network would become self-contained west of Leamington apart from the 1tph XC service also using it.

 

[VT 390]

Slightly OT but in the spirit of the thread title, I think a better idea would be to have the Chiltern franchise take over all local services on the Snow Hill Lines. That way, Chiltern would serve Worcester while keeping the London - Birmingham services as they are. This would also allow greater flexibility for timetabling as the Chiltern network would become self-contained west of Leamington apart from the 1tph XC service also using it.

Would this not mean that Chiltern would have to take on the WMR 172's and these do operate other WMR services other than the Snow Hill lines such as the Leamington to Nuneaton and some Great Malvern to New Street services so this could be an issue.
Also I think that the local services on the Snow Hill lines should remain with a more local operator as it is currently with West Midlands Railway.

 

[PTR 444]

Would this not mean that Chiltern would have to take on the WMR 172's and these do operate other WMR services other than the Snow Hill lines such as the Leamington to Nuneaton and some Great Malvern to New Street services so this could be an issue.
Also I think that the local services on the Snow Hill lines should remain with a more local operator as it is currently with West Midlands Railway.

I was thinking more along the lines of splitting the West Midlands franchise, so the routes running out of New Street stay as they are but the Snow Hill Lines transfer to Chiltern.

 

[jimm]

The reverse is far more likely to happen - GWR operating to Kidderminster. As proposed in the business case just sent to the DfT for more improvements to the Cotswold Line, which would enable a 2tph service, one going on from Worcester to Malvern/Hereford, the other to Droitwich and Kidderminster.

And what on earth do the Malvern Hills have to do with the Chilterns? As that is where they would be operating to if the Snow Hill lines were added to the operation, which is not going to happen anyway. There is nothing to be gained operationally or structurally by amputating a large part of the Birmingham suburban services from WMR.

 

[Sprinter107]

Where would they fit extra Chiltern trains through the Worcester area in the peak periods, which is when the through London to Kidderminster trains operate ? As it is, it only needs one train to run late for whatever reason, and it can take ages to get the trains running normally again. Without major upgrades in the signalling and track layout, it seems to be almost near full capacity now.

 

[VT 390]

I was thinking more along the lines of splitting the West Midlands franchise, so the routes running out of New Street stay as they are but the Snow Hill Lines transfer to Chiltern.

But the trains used on the Snow Hill lines are shared between them and New Street services.