Class 323 to Wigan North Western

[childwallblues]

The 0542 from Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western and 0621 return appear to be 323 operated. Last Tuesday it was 323239 and today 323231. On return to Liverpool the unit goes on to a Liverpool-Crewe diagram.

 

[Kieran1990]

The 0542 from Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western and 0621 return appear to be 323 operated. Last Tuesday it was 323239 and today 323231. On return to Liverpool the unit goes on to a Liverpool-Crewe diagram.

Pre-Covid the 323’s operated on the Wigan NW services interworking with the Liverpool-Crewe’s

 

[AMD]

And by next May (probably), will become a more common sight on this run as the 319s are handed back to the leasing company.

 

[childwallblues]

And by next May (probably), will become a more common sight on this run as the 319s are handed back to the leasing company.

Trains on the route will need to be longer than three car to satisfy demand as llfe gets back to normal

 

[Bayum]

Trains on the route will need to be longer than three car to satisfy demand as llfe gets back to normal

Aren’t Northern looking to double up 323s when the WMT fleet is surplus?

 

[AMD]

It is supposed to be the 4 car 331s on this route, i've asked the question when they're coming back from the east but nobody knows.

 

[scrapy]

Aren’t Northern looking to double up 323s when the WMT fleet is surplus?

They could not operate 6 car 323s on this route without platform extensions. There are non planned or funded that I'm aware of and Huyton and Roby island platforms not possible to extend to 6 car without track realignment, despite only being built a few years ago. Would need every platform between Wigan and Liverpool extended except Edge Hill and St Helens Ctl down platform.

 

[MCR247]

They could not operate 6 car 323s on this route without platform extensions. There are non planned that I'm aware of and Huyton and Roby island platforms not possible to extend to 6 car without track realignment, despite only being built a few years ago.

Perhaps 6 car 323s elsewhere will allow 4 car 331s to be shuffled onto the route

 

[scrapy]

Trains on the route will need to be longer than three car to satisfy demand as llfe gets back to normal

If the service goes back to half hourly 323s should be fine, they have almost the capacity of a 319. There would be standing passengers between Liverpool and Huyton on a few services, however it's only about 15 minutes and I do think there's other areas of the north that would benefit more from capacity improvements.

Perhaps 6 car 323s elsewhere will allow 4 car 331s to be shuffled onto the route

Without infrastructure improvements or SDO/ASDO (no plans for this) there is not many places 6 cars can run, Blackpool - Airport and Manchester to Stoke most likely as would require fewest extensions. The return of the 4 car 331s to the north west has always been the plan, however I can't say if they'll definitely go on Wigan to Liverpool.

 

[Vespa]

Ridden on the Class 323 once found the seats to be a bit harder than 319, I much preferred Class 331.

I rode it to catch a connection with a TPE the front did look slightly like a goldfish bowl to me.

 

[scrapy]

They do get extremely warm inside.

 

[childwallblues]

Pre-Covid the 323’s operated on the Wigan NW services interworking with the Liverpool-Crewe’s

That is incorrect. The Crewe services interworked with the Warrington Bank Quays. 323s are new to the Wigan services.

If the service goes back to half hourly 323s should be fine, they have almost the capacity of a 319. There would be standing passengers between Liverpool and Huyton on a few services, however it's only about 15 minutes and I do think there's other areas of the north that would benefit more from capacity improvements.


Without infrastructure improvements or SDO/ASDO (no plans for this) there is not many places 6 cars can run, Blackpool - Airport and Manchester to Stoke most likely as would require fewest extensions. The return of the 4 car 331s to the north west has always been the plan, however I can't say if they'll definitely go on Wigan to Liverpool.

6 car 331s currently run on Blackpool North to Hazel Grove and Manchester Airport and also on two out of three diagrams on Blacckpool North to Liverpool Lime street. Also one diagram on a Wigan North Western to Lime Street is booked as a six car. The Manchester Victoria to Preston service is I understand booked for a 6 car 331 but seems a lot of the time to be a single unit. In fact when I saw it at Preston last week it was a 319.

 

[prod_pep]

323s are new to the Wigan services.

No, that's not correct. 323s had a regular Saturday evening turn on the Wigan service for a time pre-pandemic, although I think it had stopped before services were cut back. I've also seen them a couple of times on weekday afternoon turns to Wigan deputising for 319s (surprise, surprise).

 

[scrapy]

That is incorrect. The Crewe services interworked with the Warrington Bank Quays. 323s are new to the Wigan services.


6 car 331s currently run on Blackpool North to Hazel Grove and Manchester Airport and also on two out of three diagrams on Blacckpool North to Liverpool Lime street. Also one diagram on a Wigan North Western to Lime Street is booked as a six car. The Manchester Victoria to Preston service is I understand booked for a 6 car 331 but seems a lot of the time to be a single unit. In fact when I saw it at Preston last week it was a 319.

This threads about 323s. My post was referring to a previous post on 323s. 6 car 323s cannot run on the above routes. I am fully aware 6 car 331s can and do run on those routes, however they utilise SDO to do this, 323s do not have this.

 

[Vespa]

This threads about 323s. My post was referring to a previous post on 323s. 6 car 323s cannot run on the above routes. I am fully aware 6 car 331s can and do run on those routes, however they utilise SDO to do this, 323s do not have this.

SDO ?

 

[js1000]

Perhaps 6 car 323s elsewhere will allow 4 car 331s to be shuffled onto the route

They say it's going to happen but it's not. There are very few routes where doubled up 6 coach 323s would actually work - they would have to optimise certain routes to only call at stations which can accommodate 6 platforms and skip stop on platforms that were too short as they don't have selective door operation.

Blackpool North to Manchester Airport is one potential route but do recall someone on here saying Network Rail don't like 323s operating through Bolton as something on them appears to interfere with lineside equipment. Not to mention the spacious 195/331s are well suited to Manchester Airport routes (in terms of luggage not blocking doors) so not sure what is gained by replacing them with commuter style seating.

The 17 323s are going to be a like for like replacement for the ~15 319s in service. The real reason Northern have taken the 323s is Porterbrook realised Northern are the only possible takers and wanted the 319s back to potentially convert them to 769s. The remaining 319s will be written down and send them for scrap or spare parts for the remaining 769s. This strangely has the effect of increasing leasing costs as there is an oversupply of EMUs at the moment.

For Northern, the big benefit is it's one less mini-fleet in the 15 or so 319s to deal with so less training and maintenance costs. The "random unit generator" has been a millstone around the Northern franchise neck for years now and one of the reasons subsidy levels are so high as you're having to train a lot of staff on a lot of different units for zero revenue. In terms of 769s these are a stop gap and I would be surprised if bi-modes 331s are not procured in the coming few years to replace them.

 

[Bayum]

SDO ?

Selective door operation. Guard/driver can select which doors open and which don’t.

 

[prod_pep]

I've been going through my phone notes and came across some info to complement an earlier post.

323s were introduced to the Liverpool to Wigan line with the May 2019 timetable change. There was only one booked return working per week: the 1945 Lime St - Wigan and 2052 return on Saturday evenings. The first working was on 15/06/19 with 323225 in charge after three consecutive weeks of cancellations; the 1945 on this occasion ran fast via Earlestown due to a conked out 319 at Thatto Heath. 323s stopped working this duty in December 2019 and I believe there were then no booked 323s to Wigan until May 2021.

323s also covered for defective 319s on weekday turns ad hoc, limited to duties worked by Liverpool crews. I've seen this at least three times but only noted the first observed occurrence: 323229 on the 1445 Lime St - Wigan and 1551 return on Thursday 11/07/19.

Pre-pandemic there were many Liverpool to Wigan turns interspersed with the Crewe and Warrington stoppers, usually 319 or 331 worked, so likely 323s will become regular performers on the Wigan route after the 319s go. They are ideally suited to this sort of stopping work and 3 cars are ample even in rush hours when it runs with two trains per hour.