Class 387 to GN

[365fenman]

SDO at Littleport on the Up involves sitting over the barrow crossing, which is the only access on/off the Up platform.

The "simple job" also requires power supply upgrade, which is less simple.

Does it? Currently there's a maximum of four electric trains going north from Cambridge in an hour (between 18:00 and 18:40), with one being eight cars and the rest being four cars. That's five EMU sets in an hour. With that, the peak time service on the Fen Line could be standardised as 2tph King's Cross to King's Lynn each formed of eight cars an 1tph formed of a four car EMU running from Liverpool Street to King's Lynn, I would have thought.

 

[Failed Unit]

The Fen Line has its own issues, however south of Cambridge it's certainly not power which is the issue.

Personally I'm not really so fussed about gangway connections. Whilst it's a "nice to have", it never really caused massive issues on the 365s. Now we have the prospect of SDO naturally this adds a complication, but it's really not the end of the world.

South of Cambridge, IIRC, platform wise we're looking at:
1) Potters Bar - 8 to 12 - difficult, but there is room at the country end.
2) Hatfield - 8 to 12 - looks fairly easy, especially the up platform.
3) Welwyn GC - 8 to 12 - very difficult, and looks likely to require a complete remodelling of the area.
4) Welwyn North - 8 to 12 - looks fairly easy at first glance?
5) Knebworth - 8 to 12 - hard to say but looks like there should be space to at least extend the slow platforms.
6) Baldock - 8 to 12 - looks fairly easy.
7) Ashwell - 8 to 12 - looks fairly easy
8) Meldreth - 4 to 12 - looks fairly easy?
9) Shepreth - 4 to 12 - looks fairly easy?
10) Foxton - 4 to 12 - looks fairly easy?

Perhaps others could comment further, as the above is based on observations only.

Potters bar, Hatfield and WGC are all island platforms. Complex but not impossible. As you say will involve remodelling because of the point work but I think room exist before the bridge.

Knebworth is also an island but not paid much attention.

Don’t think Welwyn north has room for 12. Tunnel at one end and a bridge at the other.

 

[bspahh]

Does it? Currently there's a maximum of four electric trains going north from Cambridge in an hour (between 18:00 and 18:40), with one being eight cars and the rest being four cars. That's five EMU sets in an hour. With that, the peak time service on the Fen Line could be standardised as 2tph King's Cross to King's Lynn each formed of eight cars an 1tph formed of a four car EMU running from Liverpool Street to King's Lynn, I would have thought.

http://www.flua.org.uk says that on Saturday 18 November 2017 - at the Fen Line Users Association AGM:

Guest speaker, Lisa Barrett of Network Rail confirmed that enhancement works on the Fen Line were going ahead as fast as possible. She stressed there would be a need to close the railway at times for the upgrading works but that line closures, although unavoidable, would be kept to a minimum. The line between King’s Lynn and Ely will be closed for 5 days between Monday 12 February and Friday 16 February 2018 to permit strengthening of structures.

King’s Lynn-Cambridge 8-car scheme - Mrs Barrett said that the Waterbeach station platform extensions will require a considerable amount of piling as ground conditions are very poor. Considerable piling is needed to support a light-weight steel modular structure, which can be re-used if Waterbeach station is eventually re-located. The northbound platform at Littleport is to be extended, requiring closure of the barrow crossing. The exact arrangements for the pedestrian underpass will be determined by the outcome of the Cambridgeshire Level Crossing Reduction Inquiry, due to start on 28 November. Additional train stabling will be required at King’s Lynn – “more trains will start from King’s Lynn, early trains will leave on time” - and the new track will be located in the triangle between the main line and the Middleton Towers line. The earliest possible start of works is Autumn 2018 – “we normally need two years’ notice, but we are not doing that!”

I don't know if the power upgrade is "required", but http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...elivery-plan-regulated-milestones-2016-17.pdf says that the West Anglia Traction Power Supply Upgrade is due to be done by November 2018, so the power upgrade should have been done by the time that the rest of the infrastructure is ready.

 

[SPADTrap]

The 387 internal doors are kept closed to reduce attaching / detach times.

 

[physics34]

The 387 internal doors are kept closed to reduce attaching / detach times.

typical. no thought for the travelling public.

 

[SPADTrap]

typical. no thought for the travelling public.

Can't see how the attach / detach problem wasn't foreseen though. The units locks are terrible quality and wore out quickly too. GTR GN is one big ball of incompetence by the looks of it in my opinion.

 

[Hadders]

The 387 internal doors are kept closed to reduce attaching / detach times.

What a farce, but then this is GTR...

 

[Failed Unit]

The 387 internal doors are kept closed to reduce attaching / detach times.

For interest. Are they locked out on electrostars in south eastern land (Faversham) and Southern (Hayward’s Heath) which have much shorter dwell times and do it more often?

Surprised this is just an issue on Great Northern and hopefully they are working with Bombardier to fix it.

Be good if they kept them open on services that don’t split en route. Many 8 Car services run as 8 throughout.

 

[Tunnel Bore]

For interest. Are they locked out on electrostars in south eastern land (Faversham) and Southern (Hayward’s Heath) which have much shorter dwell times and do it more often?

They aren't lock-out at Hayward's Heath and it doesn't appear to me that closing those doors is a particularly lengthy part of the whole process.

 

[Fincra5]

For interest. Are they locked out on electrostars in south eastern land (Faversham) and Southern (Hayward’s Heath) which have much shorter dwell times and do it more often?

Surprised this is just an issue on Great Northern and hopefully they are working with Bombardier to fix it.

Be good if they kept them open on services that don’t split en route. Many 8 Car services run as 8 throughout.

No they aren't and the SN ones probably get the most use/ wear & tear! So the 387 is a bizzare issue, seems more of an excuse! 387/2s do it all the time without issue.

 

[SPADTrap]

Cambridge lost 4 diagrams as a result of the change to keeping 8/12s locked off. Assistance diagrams I guess to speed up the process.

 

[Failed Unit]

As both Southern / Great Northern are both GTR. It makes you wonder why great northern don’t ask Southern to help them pass over their knowledge on how to operate the 387s. I nice little positive story with some real passenger benefits.

Maybe the other win / win would be to put the 365s on diagrams that split / join en routes. Must be frustrating that someone joining at Foxton just now wait unit Royston to move coaches when previously the could walk through the train.

 

[APUK002]

As both Southern / Great Northern are both GTR. It makes you wonder why great northern don’t ask Southern to help them pass over their knowledge on how to operate the 387s. I nice little positive story with some real passenger benefits.

Maybe the other win / win would be to put the 365s on diagrams that split / join en routes. Must be frustrating that someone joining at Foxton just now wait unit Royston to move coaches when previously the could walk through the train.

Quite so,removed the convince bit(walkthrough)?

 

[Fincra5]

At out of curiosity, how long are the trains timed at Cambridge for splitting?

 

[bramling]

At out of curiosity, how long are the trains timed at Cambridge for splitting?

Varies, but I suspect the main issue is not how much time is allowed, but the need to get trains coupled or uncoupled quickly when things are running late - which unfortunately is quite common on GN. It sounds very much like someone’s idea to claw back a minute or two.

Heaven help Thameslink.

 

[Ianno87]

At out of curiosity, how long are the trains timed at Cambridge for splitting?

Minimum for planning is 5 minutes for a split, 6 minutes for a join. With the wind behind you, it can be done in 3-4 at a push, depending upon the amount of ensuing station ceremony.

A number in the peak are timed for longer, mainly for onwards pathing on the single line to Lynn.

 

[Failed Unit]

So compareable to Haywards Heath were from London they typically arrive at x.29 and x.59 with the first portion leaving 4 minutes later. The same for the join with the service arriving at x.10 and x.39 and heading away to Victoria at x.14 and x.44

The Brighton Mainline is probably worse for niggling delays than Great Northern.

 

[Fincra5]

Minimum for planning is 5 minutes for a split, 6 minutes for a join. With the wind behind you, it can be done in 3-4 at a push, depending upon the amount of ensuing station ceremony.

A number in the peak are timed for longer, mainly for onwards pathing on the single line to Lynn.

That time is more than sufficient for 387s to attached/ detach - with opening the ganagways. Maybe the AGA platform staff aren't to be trained up on 387 splits so they have to leave them locked out?

 

[Skimble19]

So compareable to Haywards Heath were from London they typically arrive at x.29 and x.59 with the first portion leaving 4 minutes later. The same for the join with the service arriving at x.10 and x.39 and heading away to Victoria at x.14 and x.44

The Brighton Mainline is probably worse for niggling delays than Great Northern.

Unfortunately, unlike Haywards Heath, we don’t have any Platform Staff to assist at Cambridge.. GN staff do it (or did!) at Royston and it was fine.

 

[Downthelane]

Hatfield should become the main hub if WGC is going to need a full remodel. WGC should retain the Moorgate service and start to reduce the fast stopper frequency as it lacks the platform layout. Hatfield has better connectivity, a proper bus station and great parking. Hatfield also has the space to the west to increase the Up capacity. I can see Hatfield taking over from WGC as the primary fast stopper location

 

[Failed Unit]

Hatfield should become the main hub if WGC is going to need a full remodel. WGC should retain the Moorgate service and start to reduce the fast stopper frequency as it lacks the platform layout. Hatfield has better connectivity, a proper bus station and great parking. Hatfield also has the space to the west to increase the Up capacity. I can see Hatfield taking over from WGC as the primary fast stopper location

Just need a platform on the fast line towards London, maybe move it to Welwyn North.

 

[class387]

Hatfield should become the main hub if WGC is going to need a full remodel. WGC should retain the Moorgate service and start to reduce the fast stopper frequency as it lacks the platform layout. Hatfield has better connectivity, a proper bus station and great parking. Hatfield also has the space to the west to increase the Up capacity. I can see Hatfield taking over from WGC as the primary fast stopper location

I agree. If anything I certainly don't see any reason for WGC to be more important than Hatfield. I know quite a few people who live in parts of WGC not within walking distance of the station choose to take the bus to Hatfield and catch the train from there instead of to WGC station - the bus frequency and fare is the same and it probably saves on the rail ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

I agree. If anything I certainly don't see any reason for WGC to be more important than Hatfield. I know quite a few people who live in parts of WGC not within walking distance of the station choose to take the bus to Hatfield and catch the train from there instead of to WGC station - the bus frequency and fare is the same and it probably saves on the rail ticket.

How will it save on the rail ticket? They price is the same both places, I know a few people from Hatfield that buy a ticket to Welwyn for flexibility.

I know "Downthelanes" post was not serious as was my response. don't want to distract the thread, but I think the only reason why services don't stop at Hatfield is operations flexibility. Take the 0755 WGC - London Kings Cross, it crosses onto the fast at various points. Welwyn, Marshmoor, Potters Bar or even New Barnet. The fast ones rarely go onto the fast at WGC but it does happen often enough that I am sure the timetable planners don't want to lose the flexibility.

In future it will not be relevant as sadly both stations lose thier fast services. All services from WGC will be on the slow throughout. Be interesting how they deal with out of sequence trains from the timetable change as the are either going to need to hold the slow (and snowball delays), skip stop the fast and / or the slow.

Both stations deserve a better service than what GTR are proposing as part of the Thamelink timetable. We should be teaming up an fighting the common enermy.

 

[class387]

How will it save on the rail ticket? They price is the same both places, I know a few people from Hatfield that buy a ticket to Welwyn for flexibility.

I know "Downthelanes" post was not serious as was my response. don't want to distract the thread, but I think the only reason why services don't stop at Hatfield is operations flexibility. Take the 0755 WGC - London Kings Cross, it crosses onto the fast at various points. Welwyn, Marshmoor, Potters Bar or even New Barnet. The fast ones rarely go onto the fast at WGC but it does happen often enough that I am sure the timetable planners don't want to lose the flexibility.

In future it will not be relevant as sadly both stations lose thier fast services. All services from WGC will be on the slow throughout. Be interesting how they deal with out of sequence trains from the timetable change as the are either going to need to hold the slow (and snowball delays), skip stop the fast and / or the slow.

Both stations deserve a better service than what GTR are proposing as part of the Thamelink timetable. We should be teaming up an fighting the common enermy.

Sorry, wasn't aware of the pricing. But I certainly agree about the last part - what really isn't fair is the difference in service between St Albans and WGC/Hatfield.

 

[MML]

With new Thameslink services from Cambridge and Peterborough to use 700's and no longer serve KGX, is it not possible to retain more 365s and operate more semi-fast services to platforms at KGX originating at Royston or Letchworth.
Hatfield and WGC could then have a semi-fast service to Finsbury Pk and KGX.

 

[Downthelane]

I think we are all agreed something needs to change to help redress the disparity however the key difference is the Moorgate service from WGC that the MML does not need to deal with. The. ECML is probably 50% busier at peak hours than the MML on the Fast. The Slow would suffice but the Moorgate stopping services take far too much time and means that overall capacity is limited. We can only hope faster and greater capacity 717's create more paths or that some of 717'a can run to KGX. The fact that a 43 year old unit is still in daily use taking up key capacity is a disgrace.

 

[MML]

The 3 primary slow services on the MML are timed to follow each other, so the St Albans all stations follows the Luton service which is fast from Elstree. I imagine a similar process could be followed with the 717 following immediately behind a semi-fast on the slow line.

Though I wonder whether the short 2 track stretch complicates matters what with EC expresses also to be fitted into the pattern.

KGX should have capacity following the introduction of GN Thameslink services. Unfortunately, the same can't be said of St Pancras, with all capacity already used by EMT.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 3 primary slow services on the MML are timed to follow each other, so the St Albans all stations follows the Luton service which is fast from Elstree. I imagine a similar process could be followed with the 717 following immediately behind a semi-fast on the slow line.

Though I wonder whether the short 2 track stretch complicates matters what with EC expresses also to be fitted into the pattern.

KGX should have capacity following the introduction of GN Thameslink services. Unfortunately, the same can't be said of St Pancras, with all capacity already used by EMT.

The proposed timetable is similar- semifast (potters bar, Hatfield, WGC) leaves on the slow, 2 minutes later the all station 717 follows. It is catches the previous slow service at Hatfield. Operating will need to be slick.

One thing i don’t understand is why Welwyn North will get such a good service. It is smaller than the other stations and blocks 2 paths on the busy Mainline. But hey best split this thread.

 

[MikeWM]

Does anyone else find accessing the wifi on the GN 387s very unreliable? I seem to have success little more than half the time (maybe about 60%), which isn't a very good record at all. Either it doesn't show up at all or connecting doesn't work.

Once I'm on its pretty good - tends not to throw you off for no apparent reason, unlike that on the (GA) 379s - but getting on seems much more problematic than it ought to be.

 

[jon0844]

I have had zero problems and have been quite stunned at how reliable it is, even allowing me to use Wi-Fi calling on my phone with no issues.

But I clearly haven't been on every 387.

(I had a very good experience on EMT too, for what it's worth - showing just how good 4G mobile coverage has become, helped by external antennas).