Class 458 Future Speculation

[RacsoMoquette]

Seeing as SWR are unlikely to ever operate their Class 458/4s could they go to Northern to bolster the fleet before 450 new units are ordered?
I seem to remember that the original Class 458/0s had a pantograph well, for possible AC conversion?

 

[swt_passenger]

Seeing as SWR are unlikely to ever operate their Class 458/4s could they go to Northern to bolster the fleet before 450 new units are orderd?

No. They are DC only trains. They’ll never be used outside the “Southern”.

(Although theoretically they could be given major AC modifications, it would never be cost effective to do so given their short remaining life.)

 

[D365]

As far as ”EMUs to Northern” goes, this is a new one!

Especially bearing in mind that Porterbrook also owns the 350/2 subfleet.

 

[Neptune]

Seeing as SWR are unlikely to ever operate their Class 458/4s could they go to Northern to bolster the fleet before 450 new units are orderd?

Wow this is a new one and makes a change. However, as mentioned in the many other ‘new uses for EMU threads’ Northern‘s fleet plan is in place and not one single idea for various classes is going to change that.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Suppose SWR were never to operate the 458/4s. I could see them going to Southern or Southeastern Railway as they would be perfect for their DC-only rails.

 

[JonathanH]

Suppose SWR were never to operate the 458/4s. I could see them going to Southern or Southeastern Railway as they would be perfect for their DC-only rails.

They would in no sense be 'perfect' for either Southern and Southeastern particularly when considered against the fact that Southern only operate Electrostars, which comes with considerable operational advantages.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

They would in no sense be 'perfect' for either Southern and Southeastern particularly when considered against the fact that Southern only operate Electrostars, which comes with considerable operational advantages.

How can you not see them going to Southern or Southeastern? Southern has Rolling Stock issues and Southeastern will want to get rid of their networkers or is it the case of letting the 458/4s just rot and money being wasted on these units?

 

[RacsoMoquette]

It would be extremely interesting to see what the final outcomes are with the SWR Class 458/4s and the ex LNWR Class 350/2s, the latter especially are an extremely good quality example of a Desiro, and could they possibly be sent to EMR (albeit with AC modifications) to bolster the poorly performing Class 360s on the Corby route? They could both be maintained at Northampton TMD. One of the issues plaguing the the Class 360s is a lack of TMDs of the Midland Mainline for AC fleets, thus depriving the 360s of reliability enhancing attention.

Dear moderator- Could we possibly have the Class 458/4 and Class 350/2 speculation threads in one? Many Thanks

 

[JonathanH]

One of the issues plaguing the the Class 360s is a lack of TMDs of the Midland Mainline for AC fleets, thus depriving the 360s of reliability enhancing attention.

I'm not sure that would be helped by also having the 350s. The 360 fleet at 21 units is in theory a perfect size for EMR.

 

[Energy]

The 458 conversion was ordered as a quick fix to the problematic 442s as it was envisioned that the stock would be needed. Commuting hasn't returned to anywhere near public levels so the Pompey services can still be covered by 450s. Short term the 458s are apparently being pressed into service on the Hounslow and Weybridge services due to the very slow 701 rollout. Long term it depends on SWR's stock usage, they've got a lot of 701s.

and the ex LNWR Class 350/2s, the latter especially are an extremely good quality example of a Desiro, and could they possibly be sent to EMR (albeit with AC modifications) to bolster the poorly performing Class 360s on the Corby route?

EMR has plenty, 21 360s for 6 diagrams is enough for 12 cars and Siemens at Bedford depot now maintain them with only heavy work done at Northampton. They are now getting a refurbishment and aren't likely to leave anytime soon.

The 730s still need to enter service at LNWR. In a few years, I'd imagine the 350/2s will go to a class 387 operator for cascade when Southern/SouthEastern inevitably needs more 387/377s, or an option for c2c depending on what condition the 357s are in.

 

[jbqfc]

you could put them on Gatwick express to free up the 387-2 for other services

 

[61653 HTAFC]

you could put them on Gatwick express to free up the 387-2 for other services

"History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes"

 

[JonathanH]

you could put them on Gatwick express to free up the 387-2 for other services

Southern / Gatwick Express is an Electrostar operation. The last thing it needs is a non standard fleet complicating that.

 

[fgwrich]

How can you not see them going to Southern or Southeastern? Southern has Rolling Stock issues and Southeastern will want to get rid of their networkers or is it the case of letting the 458/4s just rot and money being wasted on these units?

Easily, see below.

The 458 conversion was ordered as a quick fix to the problematic 442s as it was envisioned that the stock would be needed. Commuting hasn't returned to anywhere near public levels so the Pompey services can still be covered by 450s. Short term the 458s are apparently being pressed into service on the Hounslow and Weybridge services due to the very slow 701 rollout. Long term it depends on SWR's stock usage, they've got a lot of 701s.

EMR has plenty, 21 360s for 6 diagrams is enough for 12 cars and Siemens at Bedford depot now maintain them with only heavy work done at Northampton. They are now getting a refurbishment and aren't likely to leave anytime soon.

The 730s still need to enter service at LNWR. In a few years, I'd imagine the 350/2s will go to a class 387 operator for cascade when Southern/SouthEastern inevitably needs more 387/377s, or an option for c2c depending on what condition the 357s are in.

The 458s, like most of the Alstom built units at the time have suffered from their share of corrosion and has been costly to fix. The /4 conversion, making them something of a triggers broom again, will see them out for limited use on SWR for a few years (eg until the 701 introduction) but they are unlikely to last much longer.

Southern has an almost solely Electrostar fleet, they don't need the complication of some 20 something year old Juniper's being pushed into it. SouthEastern already has a number of micro fleets, cascading Electrostars into this will reduce that. Again, Junipers won't. Frankly, if the levels of commuting had returned to pre Covid levels, then I'd rather see a deal constructed between SWR / LNWR / Angel and Porterbrook to see the 350/2s stay on the WCML, 350/1s transferred to SWR and the Junipers sent off to the scrapheap - where would / should have been going until the 442 / 701 debacles reared their heads.

 

[Tremzinho]

If they were being given an AC conversion, Scotrail would be the only logical place to send them so they could work with the 334s.

I doubt it would be economically viable, but ultimately it’s down to Eversholt to decide whether to write off the assets or spend more to get a return for the next 10-15 years.

 

[JonathanH]

I doubt it would be economically viable, but ultimately it’s down to Eversholt to decide whether to write off the assets or spend more to get a return for the next 10-15 years.

Eversholt have nothing to do with the 458s. Porterbrook assets.

 

[D365]

Eversholt have nothing to do with the 458s. Porterbrook assets.

Indeed. Which is why I find this speculation about 458s as a Networker replacement (Angel and Eversholt owned) all the more bonkers.

 

[Tremzinho]

Eversholt have nothing to do with the 458s. Porterbrook assets.

Yes, sorry I momentarily mixed it up with the 334, which is owned by Eversholt.

My point still stands. Even if Scotrail was willing to take them on, Porterbrook would have to decide whether it was worth investing in AC conversion to continue getting a return on this asset more for the next 10 years or so.

I’ve no idea how much this would cost, but it’s probably no more expensive than the pointless retractioning we’ve seen of near end of life units like the 321 and 442. I still think it is unlikely to happen.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Yes, sorry I momentarily mixed it up with the 334, which is owned by Eversholt.

My point still stands. Even if Scotrail was willing to take them on, Porterbrook would have to decide whether it was worth investing in AC conversion to continue getting a return on this asset more for the next 10 years or so.

I’ve no idea how much this would cost, but it’s probably no more expensive than the pointless retractioning we’ve seen of near end of life units like the 321 and 442. I still think it is unlikely to happen.

I would think that Scotrail will order more 385s for their electric services.

 

[brad465]

Newport.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

How exactly in depth was the refurbishment? They received new seats yes, but were new PIS systems installed? New carpets? Overhauled traction equipment? I agree the Class 458/4s (if Porterbrook could lease them to Eversholt) would be good on Scotrail to bolster the Class 334s fleet if AC converted. Recently the intensively worked c2c Class 357s look dreadful inside, and a refurbishment is in dire need, seeing as they still bear National Express moquette and pole purple.

Unfortunately though, I think the latter prospect is more conceivable, The Class 458 was always a shambolic design which received too many modifications in its time to try and reverse their image. Quite frankly the Alstom Junipers were designed and built during a period of financial instability on Alstom's behalf. They were shoddily built and antiquated construction equipment was utilised at Washwood Heath with a lack of quality control from the French Design. I think the heavily corroded bodyshells of the Class 458/4s will be scrapped and useful parts will be cannibalised to refurbish and maintain good reliability of the well performing Class 334s.