Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Invincible]

They do. The new 7xx Aventras use a new generation of software to the 345s.

My guess is that Alstom has judged that prioritising the development of the 345's software over that of the 701's, and paying a penalty to the rosoco rather than temporarily expanding their software development teams, is the most cost-effective path for them.

Also as the 455s and 458s have some serviceable life left, gives time to sort out the 701 software?

 

[Towers]

It may be the least cost effective path if the customer gets so hacked off it cancels the order.

But they won’t, of course!

 

[Goldfish62]

Also as the 455s and 458s have some serviceable life left, gives time to sort out the 701 software?

SWR needs more capacity. The 455s do nothing to solve that.

 

[Towers]

SWR needs more capacity. The 455s do nothing to solve that.

The 456s were a help though…

 

[Chilternblue]

Visited Marchwood this morning, only 4 class 701 visible from the road, 032,043,045 and 049, HTH

 

[Domh245]

If it's not a stupid question, why did they need a new generation of software (rather than few tweaks to existing generation), what features have the 7xx series Adventra got that 345 didn't that made existing software unsuitable.

Sort of feels like someone didn't like it, and decided to reinvent the wheel, rather than adapt the wheel they had. I could understand it if a new generation was ready, but not if new generation software would be 4-5 years after first train was supposed to be in service.

As I understood it, the existing software was incredibly old (originating in the first gen electrostars) so whilst it was functional it was felt rather limiting and development of a clean-sheet software was desired.

The use of it as the base for the 345s was a (in hindsight, wise even if not quite as smooth as hoped!) move to lessen risks in getting those into service. There's no features in the 7xx that the 345s don't have, but they have much newer (and in theory) more capable software managing the onboard systems

 

[Elorith]

You do wonder why if the software works on a 720 both a single units and two coupled, and a 701 is 5car or effectively 2 permanently coupled to form a 10car, they didn't use the same basic software.

Of course Bombardier boldly claimed the Adventra train was modular and scaleable, so applying that, how does it take 3-4 years extra to add token number of modules into the software.

Perhaps a bigger question was why wasn't the software development started early enough so that it was written (properly) by time first train was assembled, seems to be treated as an afterthought.

Unfortunately, it seems like there may well be a number of software issues with the 5 car 701s which are/were being tested

 

[Snow1964]

It may be the least cost effective path if the customer gets so hacked off it cancels the order.

They almost certainly won't cancel.
but reputation of Derby as a place to build a train that works straight out of the box (or works perfectly as it is driven out the factory gate) is in tatters.
There hasn't exactly been a queue of Operators lining up to buy similar trains or follow on batches in last 3 years.

 

[Goldfish62]

They almost certainly won't cancel.
but reputation of Derby as a place to build a train that works straight out of the box (or works perfectly as it is driven out the factory gate) is in tatters.
There hasn't exactly been a queue of Operators lining up to buy similar trains or follow on batches in last 3 years.

As highlighted by Roger Ford, excluding the HS2 order the last rolling stock delivery from Derby is in June 2024.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There hasn't exactly been a queue of Operators lining up to buy similar trains or follow on batches in last 3 years.

That said, other than SouthEastern, there isn’t really anywhere that would use a load of Aventras.

 

[tomuk]

They almost certainly won't cancel.
but reputation of Derby as a place to build a train that works straight out of the box (or works perfectly as it is driven out the factory gate) is in tatters.
There hasn't exactly been a queue of Operators lining up to buy similar trains or follow on batches in last 3 years.

Have there been any follow on orders for Desiro Citys in the same period? As regards Derby's reputation I don't think going back to at least the 158s it hasn't had a reputation of the trains running straight out of the box without issues.

 

[JonathanH]

There hasn't exactly been a queue of Operators lining up to buy similar trains or follow on batches in last 3 years.

Nor has there been any need or funding for there to have been any orders in that time so I'm not sure that proves anything.

If anything, the positive thing for Derby is that the existing orders haven't been reduced in number.

 

[Dougal2345]

Might there be a case for splitting this thread into two - one for general discussion of 701s, the other for specific info about test running and locations of individual units? Just a thought.

 

[Invincible]

Unfortunately, it seems like there may well be a number of software issues with the 5 car 701s which are/were being tested

Guess, in the absence of press releases, the software teams (wherever they are?) of Alstom (trains) and Siemens (signalling) are awaiting the outcome of this weekend's Elizabeth line upgrade. https://www.mylondon.news/news/crossrail-finally-finishes-elizabeth-line-26945064
If all is OK then Alstom software teams will concentrate on the 701 software and testing?.

 

[Dan G]

In answer to...

If it's not a stupid question, why did they need a new generation of software (rather than few tweaks to existing generation), what features have the 7xx series Adventra got that 345 didn't that made existing software unsuitable.

Sort of feels like someone didn't like it, and decided to reinvent the wheel, rather than adapt the wheel they had. I could understand it if a new generation was ready, but not if new generation software would be 4-5 years after first train was supposed to be in service.

What Dom says...

As I understood it, the existing software was incredibly old (originating in the first gen electrostars) so whilst it was functional it was felt rather limiting and development of a clean-sheet software was desired.

The use of it as the base for the 345s was a (in hindsight, wise even if not quite as smooth as hoped!) move to lessen risks in getting those into service. There's no features in the 7xx that the 345s don't have, but they have much newer (and in theory) more capable software managing the onboard systems

It's quite common in software engineering to take a new baseline now and then. Perhaps a new software architectural approach has shown its value – the classic example is breaking "monolithic" code into separate modules, each delivering a defined service, so you change a module without risking breaking everything!

Or you might move from an old operating system that is no longer supported by a vendor, or you change hardware, perhaps going from 32-bit to 64-bit microprocessors. Or, again, changing vendors because no-one makes the hardware you used to use anymore.

Of could any such change brings risks, and Bombardier/Alstom have certainly made a reality of them!

Guess, in the absence of press releases, the software teams (wherever they are?) of Alstom (trains) and Siemens (signalling) are awaiting the outcome of this weekend's Elizabeth line upgrade. https://www.mylondon.news/news/crossrail-finally-finishes-elizabeth-line-26945064
If all is OK then Alstom software teams will concentrate on the 701 software and testing?.

I reckon that's a fair bet.

Also I think it's worth noting that the Class 730s are said to be without issues and ready to go. Now maybe it'll be Crossrail situation with an announcement that they're very much not ready shortly before they're due to start working, but it does sound like those units (maybe with a lower software spec) are trouble-free from the factory.

 

[IndianPacific]

Guess, in the absence of press releases, the software teams (wherever they are?) of Alstom (trains) and Siemens (signalling) are awaiting the outcome of this weekend's Elizabeth line upgrade. https://www.mylondon.news/news/crossrail-finally-finishes-elizabeth-line-26945064
If all is OK then Alstom software teams will concentrate on the 701 software and testing?.

This will depend on what software actually needs upgrading and how specialist the team maintaining it is.

Software teams will be working on software releases for multiple projects, and while teams do, to an extent, specialise on a product or platform, their next project could easily be for a train somewhere else in the world.

Part of the reason software takes so long is you need to book these 'production slots' just as much as you do in a factory and the small teams doing the work often have long to-do lists already. It can be a fight to get your release prioritised!

 

[Samzino]

I mentioned previously in this thread about the issues Alstom has with time management. The 345s have had more issues than anticipated and as well taken much longer to fix as a result which has had a knock on their reliability(10,000 miles) vs the projected goal(14,000miles) per fault. A lot of Alstom technician Buddies I know stationed mostly around the COS say that it won't be for another year before all the remaining software faults etc and fixes are fully implemented bare in mind these are updated by a unit by unit basis as well as on the track infrastructure itself when it comes to signaling. Most of them have had their contracts extended by now more than twice.

A pal of mine mentioned its only after the 345s will he possibly be routed to work on 701s in his own case. I doubt the 701 issue is a major as its been made out to be but more so that the resources and time to work on adequate fixes etc for it have been hampered by resources more spread out on the 345 units which are using more dated software mixed and match to work with 3 signaling systems and heaps of other shiz. I doubt SWR would keep accepting new train deliveries if the software issues weren't more so solvable but just down to resourcing which with a firm date would be solved.

 

[Elorith]

I doubt SWR would keep accepting new train deliveries if the software issues weren't more so solvable but just down to resourcing which with a firm date would be solved.

The rumour goes the reason why they have been accepted is only because the company making them would otherwise go bankrupt.

 

[Dan G]

Alstom? Lol. Nowhere near bankruptcy.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Alstom? Lol. Nowhere near bankruptcy.

They could've been referring to bombardier.

 

[jackot]

Alstom? Lol. Nowhere near bankruptcy.

They could've been referring to bombardier.

And what about Rock Rail? Presumably they must be only surviving right now on compensation from Alstom.

 

[Samzino]

The rumour goes the reason why they have been accepted is only because the company making them would otherwise go bankrupt.

But SWR would need to make something out of that either vi's a form of compensation whether directly returned money or prices of remaining orders discounted or maybe extra units as I doubt SWR are accepting orders out of pity for the manufacturer.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s been discussed on social media that there are rumours of depot training having started. Is there any truth to this?

 

[pompeyfan]

It’s been discussed on social media that there are rumours of depot training having started. Is there any truth to this?

Depot driving training started back in February / March

 

[Bedwyn32]

I have been told by a driver trainer at SWR that they will be in service August. But when I asked what year he didn't say.

 

[Snow1964]

And what about Rock Rail? Presumably they must be only surviving right now on compensation from Alstom.

Rock Rail South Western plc have not yet filed accounts to 31 December 2022, they were filed by mid May last year, and notes to the accounts clearly show compensation in other income etc.

As a plc obliged to file by end of June, but the fact that they are later this year is telling, but will have to wait, and then scrutinise notes to accounts for other income, and lease payments when they are published.

Doesn't appear to have been any new charges for over 3 months either (class 701 units as security to Rock Rails funder, Bank of Luxembourg), although potentially might have bought some more out of cash flow, or only had to make an instalment payment in interim, whilst not at standard required for services.

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[Dan G]

Thanks for keeping an eye on this side of things

 

[swr444]

I have been told by a driver trainer at SWR that they will be in service August. But when I asked what year he didn't say.

No chance, no one apart from depot drivers have been trained on them.

 

[PG]

Doesn't appear to have been any new charges for over 3 months either (class 701 units as security to Rock Rails funder, Bank of Luxembourg)

Thanks for keeping an eye on this side of things

My thanks too. It has prompted me to delve into this. It transpires that Bank of Luxembourg is owned by CIC (Crédit Industriel et Commercial), which is a subsidiary of the French bank Crédit Mutuel.
So effectively the funds received by Alstom (a French company) are underwritten by a French bank - although I accept that this wasn't the case when the trains were ordered!

 

[444045]

For @Stew27005 records -

Class 701 moves today :

701014 & 701017 both moved from Clapham Yard to Eastleigh Depot within 30mins of each other.

701031 moved in the opposite direction from Eastleigh to Clapham Yard.