Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

[SpacePhoenix]

How much extra load does having a plug socket per seat place on the 3rd rail?

 

[hwl]

How much extra load does having a plug socket per seat place on the 3rd rail?

If everyone plugged a laptop in and assuming the laptop power supplies take about 0.6A at mains voltage (Big laptop) then:

On a single 707 about 33KW or an extra 45A at 3rd rail voltages.

However I think design parameters would be to assume 3A/socket (5x bigger) so cabling /inverters for 165A / 225KW per unit.

 

[J-2739]

I've made a separate thread on phones, so you can debate about interfaces on that and leave the poor 707s alone
Over here=http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134223

 

[jon0844]

I've made a separate thread on phones, so you can debate about interfaces on that and leave the poor 707s alone
Over here=http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134223

It wasn't meant to be about phones, rather the equipment to charge them - past, present and future.

While we did go off on a tangent, it's still on topic given the fact that these are trains that will be in service for 30-40 years. There's no doubt we'll not stop needing a way to power our gadgets, although perhaps improvements in battery technology and power saving will mean many people can easily get through a day without needing a top-up - even with the heaviest of usage.

 

[AM9]

Purpose-built commuter trans normally carry more standing than seated when fully loaded. So when all the seats have been grabbed, those standing can be no less in need for mobile power than the lucky seated ones. Therefore the problem is to get enough outlets for everybody just to keep it fair. That's about 150 per car for Desiro City of Aventra designs.

 

[Domh245]

Purpose-built commuter trans normally carry more standing than seated when fully loaded. So when all the seats have been grabbed, those standing can be no less in need for mobile power than the lucky seated ones. Therefore the problem is to get enough outlets for everybody just to keep it fair. That's about 150 per car for Desiro City of Aventra designs.

Bring back old LU style bobble hangers but with a USB-A socket in the bobble?

 

[J-2739]

Bring back old LU style bobble hangers but with a USB-A socket in the bobble?

Imagine the number of cracks on the phones with people bumping into them

 

[AM9]

Imagine the number of cracks on the phones with people bumping into them

Or cracks on their heads as they don't look where they are going.

 

[Goldfish62]

Purpose-built commuter trans normally carry more standing than seated when fully loaded. So when all the seats have been grabbed, those standing can be no less in need for mobile power than the lucky seated ones. Therefore the problem is to get enough outlets for everybody just to keep it fair. That's about 150 per car for Desiro City of Aventra designs.

DB's Talent 2s have USB points located up near the luggage racks. I guess this is to allow use by standing passengers.

 

[AM9]

DB's Talent 2s have USB points located up near the luggage racks. I guess this is to allow use by standing passengers.

Well maybe that would be a solution so that those who don't have the privilege of a seat aren't prevented from using power outlets by those that have grabbed the seats, (and are using the sockets).

 

[class387]

DB's Talent 2s have USB points located up near the luggage racks. I guess this is to allow use by standing passengers.

SNCB's new Desiros (the AM08s) have their power sockets also in that position. These are designed for local trains.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Londonist drives a 707:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiuWtJP3MbM

I wonder if drivers of 444s and 450s will find many differences in the handling of them compared with the 707s

 

[swt_passenger]

Londonist drives a 707:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiuWtJP3MbM

I wonder if drivers of 444s and 450s will find many differences in the handling of them compared with the 707s

Was posted on the 12th, a few pages ago, triggering off the recent renewed discussions in this thread.

Drivers will be properly trained on them in due course so why should it matter?

 

[swt_passenger]

In the September Modern Railways, the vehicle designations are given as follows:

DMOC/S (B)
PTOSL
TOS2
TOSLW
DMOC/S (A)

Normally L means toilet - the article mentions they have none.
DMOC usually means composite, i.e. first and standard
DMOS usually means standard only - the units have always been described as standard only, so what does C/S actually mean??

 

[Class377/5]

In the September Modern Railways, the vehicle designations are given as follows:

DMOC/S (B)
PTOSL
TOS2
TOSLW
DMOC/S (A)

Normally L means toilet - the article mentions they have none.
DMOC usually means composite, i.e. first and standard
DMOS usually means standard only - the units have always been described as standard only, so what does C/S actually mean??

C/S properly means standard variant of possible composite.

Note the reason for the L is fact they have certain work for a toilet to be installed in the future (think pipe holes in body etc).

 

[D365]

Interesting how only two of five coaches are powered. One would normally expect three?

 

[phoenixcronin]

Interesting how only two of five coaches are powered. One would normally expect three?

Indeed, seems strange. Could it be a typo? The 700s have 50% motor cars

 

[43096]

Indeed, seems strange. Could it be a typo? The 700s have 50% motor cars

Depends on the motor rating. The 444s are 5 car and have two motor coaches, although both are Bo-Bo. Assuming the 707s are the same, they'll have 8 motored axles, whereas the 458s (also 5 car) have 6 axles powered. Why pay for extra motors you don't need?

 

[D365]

Indeed, seems strange. Could it be a typo? The 700s have 50% motor cars

And the Class 345 is reportedly 90%!

 

[AM9]

Interesting how only two of five coaches are powered. One would normally expect three?

It all depends on the proportion of adhesive weight, i.e. the Desiro City tare weights are overall much lighter than other recent EMUs (thing 350s and Electrostar). The difference is less on the motor or pantograph/transformer vehicles though so the adhesive weight of the two 'kit laden' cars would be similar to the three trailers.
ISTR that the class 700 powered cars are between 35 and 37 tonnes whereas the trailers are only around 27 tonnes, a figure not seen since the MKI-bodied early EMUs.

 

[Class377/5]

The Desiro Cities are over powered compared to existing stock. On test I'm told one set of traction motors will keep a 12 car moving in double figures. On a 377, you'd lucky to see walking pace.

So two motors coaches should be fine for just a five car.

 

[hwl]

And the Class 345 is reportedly 90%!

But Bombardier typically don't have all axles on the motor coach powered so 377s were only 2 motored axles per motor car and 378s 3 motored axles per motor car...

The traction motors in the 345s are apparently smaller* and lighter to fit inside the inside frame bogies, allow disc brakes on motor axles unlike the 700s and more effeicient regenerative braking.


*Power output very similar to an EE507 so less powerful than some recent motors on Bombardier or Siemens stock. Aren't the Desiro City motors also a bit smaller and less powerful then the Desiro ones?

The 444s and 450s are also software limited on 3rd rail...

 

[swt_passenger]

Note the reason for the L is fact they have certain work for a toilet to be installed in the future (think pipe holes in body etc).

That would make sense. It's not so different from having a P designation on a unit without a pantograph. The 450/444 vehicle data plates for the pantograph vehicles include the 'P'. e.g. PTOSLW on a 444, IIRC.

 

[AM9]

But Bombardier typically don't have all axles on the motor coach powered so 377s were only 2 motored axles per motor car and 378s 3 motored axles per motor car...

The traction motors in the 345s are apparently smaller* and lighter to fit inside the inside frame bogies, allow disc brakes on motor axles unlike the 700s and more effeicient regenerative braking.


*Power output very similar to an EE507 so less powerful than some recent motors on Bombardier or Siemens stock. Aren't the Desiro City motors also a bit smaller and less powerful then the Desiro ones?

The 444s and 450s are also software limited on 3rd rail...

The class 700s have motors delivering up to 280hp at the wheel, so 1120hp per fully motored car. By inference, the class 707s have the same setup (which will of course be crippled in order to prevent the 3rd rail supplies). Given the Desiro City design's much lighter tare weight, 2240hp (limited in software to about 1500hp) should be adequate for a 5-car set.

 

[phoenixcronin]

I'm somewhat confused by the 2+1 seating. On the 700s they are needed to make the aisle wide enough to allow a wheelchair to move to the adjacent car and use the accessible toilet, and hence 2+1 is found near the wheelchair area. But 707s have no toilet, so what's the need for it?

 

[Mordac]

I'm somewhat confused by the 2+1 seating. On the 700s they are needed to make the aisle wide enough to allow a wheelchair to move to the adjacent car and use the accessible toilet, and hence 2+1 is found near the wheelchair area. But 707s have no toilet, so what's the need for it?

Cramming in more standing passengers?

 

[phoenixcronin]

Cramming in more standing passengers?

Perhaps, but most of the train is 2+2, and the 2+1 section is rather small. Does it really make that much difference? It also looks odd, at least IMHO

 

[Tom m]

I Noticed platform extensions going on at Egham and Chertsey, I presume in preparation for 10 car trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

I Noticed platform extensions going on at Egham and Chertsey, I presume in preparation for 10 car trains.

Not directly for use by 707s though. It is the Reading 10 car project which will utilise 458/5s, replaced by 707s. The current 450s used on the Reading route will be internally cascaded to lengthen other 450 services, and replace the 456s on the Ascot - Guildfords.

The lengthening is supposed to be finished by May 2017, which seems feasible based on the previous 10 car platform lengthening works. Complete list is:
Ascot – platforms 1, 2 and 3
Bracknell – platforms 1 and 2
Camberley – platforms 1 and 2 (to 6 car length only)
Chertsey – platforms 1 and 2
Egham – platforms 1 and 2
Feltham – platforms 1 and 2
Martins Heron – platforms 1 and 2
Sunningdale – platforms 1 and 2
Virginia Water – platforms 1 and 2
Wokingham – platform 1 only

 

[RobShipway]

Not directly for use by 707s though. It is the Reading 10 car project which will utilise 458/5s, replaced by 707s. The current 450s used on the Reading route will be internally cascaded to lengthen other 450 services, and replace the 456s on the Ascot - Guildfords.

The lengthening is supposed to be finished by May 2017, which seems feasible based on the previous 10 car platform lengthening works. Complete list is:
Ascot – platforms 1, 2 and 3
Bracknell – platforms 1 and 2
Camberley – platforms 1 and 2 (to 6 car length only)
Chertsey – platforms 1 and 2
Egham – platforms 1 and 2
Feltham – platforms 1 and 2
Martins Heron – platforms 1 and 2
Sunningdale – platforms 1 and 2
Virginia Water – platforms 1 and 2
Wokingham – platform 1 only

The platform extensions at Martins Heron when I was there last week, seemed pretty much complete. Popping back down the station in about 45 minutes, so will see if workmen are still around or if the portacabins have started to be moved.