Connectivity Challenges with Digital Railcard

[pinkmarie80]

Indeed- on the last few occasions I’ve been asked for my Railcard the official app has been infuriatingly slow.

 

[AM9]

The direction of travel will be for technology to play an increasing role, and the number of physical railcards issued to diminish.

Current 40 and 50 year olds, who increasingly use smartphones for every day stuff like banking, storing tickets etc aren't going to get to the age of 60 and think 'Now I qualify for a Senior Railcard I must make sure I get a physical one'.

My point still stands; to reiterate, I doubt that possession of a smartphone will ever become a condition of using public transport. Just because they are used by an ever increasing population, it must still be possible to travel on essential journeys using public transport without an electronic device that can be expensive for some to acquire, pay service charges, can be unreliable and above all, for a few people be difficult or even impossible to use, - all for the convenience of the railway. The same applies for tickets themselves. I would suggest that a smartcard might be the end result, to be accessible in the same way as prepayment meter tokens or NCTS passes are.

 

[Hadders]

My point still stands; to reiterate, I doubt that possession of a smartphone will ever become a condition of using public transport. Just because they are used by an ever increasing population, it must still be possible to travel on essential journeys using public transport without an electronic device that can be expensive for some to acquire, pay service charges, can be unreliable and above all, for a few people be difficult or even impossible to use, - all for the convenience of the railway. The same applies for tickets themselves. I would suggest that a smartcard might be the end result, to be accessible in the same way as prepayment meter tokens or NCTS passes are.

I've never said that possessing a smartphone will be required to use the railway. But I do forsee a time, rightly or wrongly, where it will become harder for those that don't use technology. An example of this is London Buses that stopped taking cash onboard 10 years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never said that possessing a smartphone will be required to use the railway. But I do forsee a time, rightly or wrongly, where it will become harder for those that don't use technology. An example of this is London Buses that stopped taking cash onboard 10 years ago.

I can see an end to cash acceptance fairly soon, but is a payment card really technology in that sense?

 

[AM9]

I can see an end to cash acceptance fairly soon, but is a payment card really technology in that sense?

A contactless card is and as a ticket format is every bit as 'convenient' to a technology driven railway as a smartphone.

 

[island]

Isn't there also a risk that if railcard could be stored in wallets, they could be downloaded multiple times?

Yes as respects Apple Wallet at least.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes as respects Apple Wallet at least.

And you can print 20 copies of an e-ticket if you want - it's scanning that determines if it's being misused.

 

[island]

And you can print 20 copies of an e-ticket if you want - it's scanning that determines if it's being misused.

True but irrelevant to the matter under discussion, which is misuse of Railcards that don't have a photo.

 

[camhef]

The matter under discussion is actually the poor implementation of digital Railcards by trip.com (and other suppliers) as can be seen from the title of this thread:

Connectivity Challenges with Digital Railcard

That's why I'm here as my trip.com Railcard causes me angst whenever I try to use it.

 

[MrJeeves]

True but irrelevant to the matter under discussion, which is misuse of Railcards that don't have a photo.

Don't all digital railcards have photos...?

 

[FenMan]

Don't all digital railcards have photos...?

The Senior Railcard doesn't have a photo.

 

[Adam Williams]

The Senior Railcard doesn't have a photo.

It does in digital form

 

[AM9]

It does in digital form

Is there evidence of significant Senior physical Railcard fraud, compared with other younger railcard groups?

 

[Adam Williams]

Is there evidence of significant Senior physical Railcard fraud, compared with other younger railcard groups?

I think they should be treated exactly the same as the railcards targeted at the younger age groups, to be honest.

How do you know there's limited fraud taking place if the plastic ones don't even have a photograph?

 

[AM9]

I think they should be treated exactly the same as the railcards targeted at the younger age groups, to be honest.

How do you know there's limited fraud taking place if the plastic ones don't even have a photograph?

I don't know (which is why I asked), but there may be some evidence of it within the industry, otherwise why has nothing been done about it for however Senior Railcards have been in existance.

 

[Hadders]

And you can print 20 copies of an e-ticket if you want - it's scanning that determines if it's being misused.

The issue here is that scanning an eticket marks it as being used. This wouldn't happen with a digital railcard.

I could purchase a railcard and put it in my digital wallet, send you a copy of it and you could download a copy of it in your digital wallet. We then travel around separately with one railcard, both will show as valid when scanned.

It's the same reason why TfL won't allow travelcards to be issued as barcode tickets.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The issue here is that scanning an eticket marks it as being used. This wouldn't happen with a digital railcard.

I could purchase a railcard and put it in my digital wallet, send you a copy of it and you could download a copy of it in your digital wallet. We then travel around separately with one railcard, both will show as valid when scanned.

It's the same reason why TfL won't allow travelcards to be issued as barcode tickets.

Why not just have, when scanned, a scan history show up (do e-tickets not already do this?), so that if two people are trying to use it at the same time on other sides of the same city or country the staff would notice it was scanned 10 minutes ago an hour away.

What does my season ticket do then? It seems to generate a new code every few hours but that doesn't make it any less valid for repeat journeys. Surely the same problem exists with a season ticket.

 

[Hadders]

Why not just have, when scanned, a scan history show up (do e-tickets not already do this?), so that if two people are trying to use it at the same time on other sides of the same city or country the staff would notice it was scanned 10 minutes ago an hour away.

What does my season ticket do then? It seems to generate a new code every few hours but that doesn't make it any less valid for repeat journeys. Surely the same problem exists with a season ticket.

Think about it.

I'm travelling from Steveneage to London at 10am and get my railcard scanned. All ok
An hour later my friend using a copy of my railcard makes a journey from Paddington to Reading and gets inspected. It's pefectly possible that could be me.

What does my season ticket do then? It seems to generate a new code every few hours but that doesn't make it any less valid for repeat journeys. Surely the same problem exists with a season ticket.

Season tickets can’t be added to a digital wallet - it’s either paper, smartcard or an app which generates a new code.

 

[MrJeeves]

I'm travelling from Steveneage to London at 10am and get my railcard scanned. All ok
An hour later my friend using a copy of my railcard makes a journey from Paddington to Reading and gets inspected. It's pefectly possible that could be me.

You keep saying this, but that is quite literally already possible with digital railcards. And this is why they have photos.

 

[martin_coxy]

I bought the discounted 3 year Senior Railcard from Trip.com. I’m frustrated that I can add tickets to the Google and Samsung wallets but not the railcard.

I tested it for offline use and discovered the following:

Signal is required to access the ‘account’ section of the app, so if you’re opening the app at the time you’re asked for the railcard and you’re offline you’re screwed.

However, if you access the ‘my railcards’ section when you do have a signal and then go offline you can still open the railcard and the colour changing logo still appears as it should.

So the simple workaround is to have the railcard displayed or at least be in the ‘my railcards’ section of the app while you have signal and just leave the app open in the background during your journey.

Not perfect but it solves all these extreme scares about prosecution etc..

As an update, I had a multi message dialogue with Trip.com asking them to explain how I use the railcard when offline since that's a regulatory requirement.

The first answer was that I should open the Trainpal app and select download. I pointed out that I don't have the Trainpal app and the Trip.com app doesn't have a download option.

The second response was that they don't offer a download code and it can't be downloaded. They apologise for the 'inconvenience'. I pointed out that a) it's a regulatory requirement and b) I'd just received a message suggesting I download it.

The final answer was the one that I'd worked out for myself. I should open the app before I get on the train and navigate to the railcard section. Even if offline, the railcard will still be viewable (and by the way the logo still spins, (my comment not theirs))

So that's their 'offline' solution. Navigate to the railcard while online and then keep the app open in the background for offline use.

My final reply was that I'll report this to the regulator since I don't think that constitutes offline use. It means that I can't use the Trip.com app during my journey because if I navigate away from the railcard and lose connection I can't get back to it.. Of course the regulator may have approved this 'offline' solution. Or may not care..

The Senior Railcard doesn't have a photo.

Mine does

 

[FenMan]

As an update, I had a multi message dialogue with Trip.com asking them to explain how I use the railcard when offline since that's a regulatory requirement.

The first answer was that I should open the Trainpal app and select download. I pointed out that I don't have the Trainpal app and the Trip.com app doesn't have a download option.

The second response was that they don't offer a download code and it can't be downloaded. They apologise for the 'inconvenience'. I pointed out that a) it's a regulatory requirement and b) I'd just received a message suggesting I download it.

The final answer was the one that I'd worked out for myself. I should open the app before I get on the train and navigate to the railcard section. Even if offline, the railcard will still be viewable (and by the way the logo still spins, (my comment not theirs))

So that's their 'offline' solution. Navigate to the railcard while online and then keep the app open in the background for offline use.

My final reply was that I'll report this to the regulator since I don't think that constitutes offline use. It means that I can't use the Trip.com app during my journey because if I navigate away from the railcard and lose connection I can't get back to it.. Of course the regulator may have approved this 'offline' solution. Or may not care..


Mine does

My (plastic) Senior Railcard doesn't. And it's never failed due to a poor mobile signal or a battery on its last legs. Perhaps I'm old fashioned by carrying a wallet that has those pockets that are ideal for bank cards and railcards?

 

[Hadders]

You keep saying this, but that is quite literally already possible with digital railcards. And this is why they have photos.

A digital railcard can be downloaded to a couple of devices but if download to APple Wallet was allowed then, as I understand it, an unlimited number of downloads could be made. Clearly that would be a significant revenue risk.

Photos can provide some mitigation but arethey going to get checked properly?

 

[MrJeeves]

A digital railcard can be downloaded to a couple of devices

Trainline (most likely the largest digital railcard retailer) does not enforce a number of maximum devices.

 

[Hadders]

Trainline (most likely the largest digital railcard retailer) does not enforce a number of maximum devices.

I see! I know they're a law unto themselves but that must be an accreditation failure.

 

[martin_coxy]

My (plastic) Senior Railcard doesn't. And it's never failed due to a poor mobile signal or a battery on its last legs. Perhaps I'm old fashioned by carrying a wallet that has those pockets that are ideal for bank cards and railcards?

I carry a wallet with back up cards but have most of my payment, loyalty cards and tickets also (or in some cases, only) on my phone. I purchased a 3 year senior railcard for £46 from Trip.com rather than the full £70 but that's only available digitally. Trip.com is an accredited supplier and as such should meet the accreditation standards, including making the card viewable offline.

I suppose I could have taken the old fashioned view that I'd prefer to pay an additional £24 and increase plastic usage.

I thought I was creating a new message so that this doesn't get lost in the thread of my previous one but the automerge feature has embedded it here..

I have finally been given a solution for offline use of Railcards on Trip.com
After much frustration with the email support and a useless chatbot I eventually chatted with an online agent. It took quite a bit of explanation and multiple failed attempts to find the solution but finally there is one..

Open the Trip.com app.
If you select 'account' the 'My Railcards' section is only available when online. One solution is to select your railcard while online and then leave the app open in the background (at least on Android). Then even if the phone is offline the Railcard is still visible. This is a frustrating workaround but was the best that the email support team could provide.

However, a better solution is:

Open the Trip.com app (even when offline). Select 'Trains' from the home page (top right), then 'My Railcard' (centre right below the search button), then 'View Railcard'. This works perfectly with no signal.

Why they make this so complicated and why their customer service are so unhelpful I don't know. But this is a simple straightforward solution that makes the Railcard available offline in the Trip.com app

 

[Enjoy12481632]

I carry a wallet with back up cards but have most of my payment, loyalty cards and tickets also (or in some cases, only) on my phone. I purchased a 3 year senior railcard for £46 from Trip.com rather than the full £70 but that's only available digitally. Trip.com is an accredited supplier and as such should meet the accreditation standards, including making the card viewable offline.

I suppose I could have taken the old fashioned view that I'd prefer to pay an additional £24 and increase plastic usage.

I thought I was creating a new message so that this doesn't get lost in the thread of my previous one but the automerge feature has embedded it here..

I have finally been given a solution for offline use of Railcards on Trip.com
After much frustration with the email support and a useless chatbot I eventually chatted with an online agent. It took quite a bit of explanation and multiple failed attempts to find the solution but finally there is one..

Open the Trip.com app.
If you select 'account' the 'My Railcards' section is only available when online. One solution is to select your railcard while online and then leave the app open in the background (at least on Android). Then even if the phone is offline the Railcard is still visible. This is a frustrating workaround but was the best that the email support team could provide.

However, a better solution is:

Open the Trip.com app (even when offline). Select 'Trains' from the home page (top right), then 'My Railcard' (centre right below the search button), then 'View Railcard'. This works perfectly with no signal.

Why they make this so complicated and why their customer service are so unhelpful I don't know. But this is a simple straightforward solution that makes the Railcard available offline in the Trip.com app

Unfortunately doesn't seem to work with my device - but alas I have simply been opening up the app prior to my travel. It is frustrating but required.

 

[FenMan]

I carry a wallet with back up cards but have most of my payment, loyalty cards and tickets also (or in some cases, only) on my phone. I purchased a 3 year senior railcard for £46 from Trip.com rather than the full £70 but that's only available digitally. Trip.com is an accredited supplier and as such should meet the accreditation standards, including making the card viewable offline.

I suppose I could have taken the old fashioned view that I'd prefer to pay an additional £24 and increase plastic usage.

I thought I was creating a new message so that this doesn't get lost in the thread of my previous one but the automerge feature has embedded it here..

I have finally been given a solution for offline use of Railcards on Trip.com
After much frustration with the email support and a useless chatbot I eventually chatted with an online agent. It took quite a bit of explanation and multiple failed attempts to find the solution but finally there is one..

Open the Trip.com app.
If you select 'account' the 'My Railcards' section is only available when online. One solution is to select your railcard while online and then leave the app open in the background (at least on Android). Then even if the phone is offline the Railcard is still visible. This is a frustrating workaround but was the best that the email support team could provide.

However, a better solution is:

Open the Trip.com app (even when offline). Select 'Trains' from the home page (top right), then 'My Railcard' (centre right below the search button), then 'View Railcard'. This works perfectly with no signal.

Why they make this so complicated and why their customer service are so unhelpful I don't know. But this is a simple straightforward solution that makes the Railcard available offline in the Trip.com app

This is digging around in the undergrowth, admittedly not undergrowth of your doing, but it's undergrowth nevertheless. Trip.com are putting their customers at risk of falling foul of railway legislation, with all that that entails, by not getting the basics right. A railcard that only appears when a member of staff needs to see it by following a particular (and probably undocumented) process isn't good enough so far as I'm concerned, particularly when fiddling with the phone to also display a valid ticket.

So I'll stick with the physical plastic version for now, even if it costs a few £ more. Call it peace of mind.

 

[martin_coxy]

Another update..
Today my 'solution' doesn't work. I have no idea how it worked last week because I tried it multiple times with airline mode selected, backed out of the app completely and could go back in and view it. Today, I see the 'my railcards' icon but can't select it..
So I'm back to the workaround of leaving the app open in the background with the railcard selected.
I've notified the RDG of this but I'm not holding my breath for a solution.

I did make a relatively long journey during the weekend, had my ticket checked multiple times and wasn't asked for my Railcard once.

I carry a wallet with back up cards but have most of my payment, loyalty cards and tickets also (or in some cases, only) on my phone. I purchased a 3 year senior railcard for £46 from Trip.com rather than the full £70 but that's only available digitally. Trip.com is an accredited supplier and as such should meet the accreditation standards, including making the card viewable offline.

I suppose I could have taken the old fashioned view that I'd prefer to pay an additional £24 and increase plastic usage.

I thought I was creating a new message so that this doesn't get lost in the thread of my previous one but the automerge feature has embedded it here..

I have finally been given a solution for offline use of Railcards on Trip.com
After much frustration with the email support and a useless chatbot I eventually chatted with an online agent. It took quite a bit of explanation and multiple failed attempts to find the solution but finally there is one..

Open the Trip.com app.
If you select 'account' the 'My Railcards' section is only available when online. One solution is to select your railcard while online and then leave the app open in the background (at least on Android). Then even if the phone is offline the Railcard is still visible. This is a frustrating workaround but was the best that the email support team could provide.

However, a better solution is:

Open the Trip.com app (even when offline). Select 'Trains' from the home page (top right), then 'My Railcard' (centre right below the search button), then 'View Railcard'. This works perfectly with no signal.

Why they make this so complicated and why their customer service are so unhelpful I don't know. But this is a simple straightforward solution that makes the Railcard available offline in the Trip.com app

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Today my 'solution' doesn't work. I have no idea how it worked last week because I tried it multiple times with airline mode selected, backed out of the app completely and could go back in and view it. Today, I see the 'my railcards' icon but can't select it..

Have you opened the railcard with an internet connection within 3 days? I think that's the time it has to be connected within.