Could Liverpool see a new underground HS2 station?

[alf]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-midlands.224967/

If Liverpool wants a captive HS2 station, that means a lot of land take and tunnelling.

Is tunnelling in central Liverpool a problem?

I have read in several places that a wealthy Victorian Liverpudlian build a few miles of tunnel plus caverns under the city just as a hobby.

Electric train tunnels don’t have any land take once they are built.

This “it can’t be done” viewpoint, if employed 200 years ago, would mean we would still be trundling around in horse carts.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is tunnelling in central Liverpool a problem?

I have read in several places that a wealthy Victorian Liverpudlian build a few miles of tunnel plus caverns under the city just as a hobby.

Electric train tunnels don’t have any land take once they are built.

Of course it isn’t.

Building an underground box straight and level long enough to accommodate 400m trains and wide enough for, say, 4 platforms, below sea level, certainly is though. Doable, but very, very expensive.

 

[Senex]

Of course it isn’t.

Building an underground box straight and level long enough to accommodate 400m trains and wide enough for, say, 4 platforms, below sea level, certainly is though. Doable, but very, very expensive.

Isn't that exactly what was done in Berlin?

 

[Ianno87]

Isn't that exactly what was done in Berlin?

Berlin isn't below sea level. And it also had a huge brownfield site to work with (effectively undeveloped land due to where the Berlin Wall used to be)

 

[Bald Rick]

You wrote of 4 x 400 m straight platforms in a concrete box. Isn't the low-level part of the Berlin station just such a box containing 4 x 430 m island platforms (i.e. 8 platform-faces), all tracks through the platforms straight? So I'd be interested to know why "not remotely" similar.

I was talking about Liverpool. Generally at, or just above, sea level. And not provisioned with a long and wide area of open space as a result of a 3 decades of division between very different political systems. Although Liverpool and Everton could perhaps contest that.

 

[urbophile]

Is tunnelling in central Liverpool a problem?

I have read in several places that a wealthy Victorian Liverpudlian build a few miles of tunnel plus caverns under the city just as a hobby.

Electric train tunnels don’t have any land take once they are built.

This “it can’t be done” viewpoint, if employed 200 years ago, would mean we would still be trundling around in horse carts.

How many platforms, and how long, will be needed for an HS2 station? If local trains are diverted onto Merseyrail, which is a perennial topic on these threads and the subject of serious proposals if not actual plans, there would be plenty of room at Lime Street provided it were possible to open up the throat and extend platforms eastwards. Much cheaper I would have thought than a purpose built new station. Though it might be an opportunity to get rid of the architectural disaster that is St John's Precinct and the Holiday Inn.

Re the (pre)Victorian tunneller, Mr Williamson: he has a starring role in the current series of Doctor Who. Not quite sure how he fits in yet though.

 

[MattRat]

How many platforms, and how long, will be needed for an HS2 station? If local trains are diverted onto Merseyrail, which is a perennial topic on these threads and the subject of serious proposals if not actual plans, there would be plenty of room at Lime Street provided it were possible to open up the throat and extend platforms eastwards. Much cheaper I would have thought than a purpose built new station. Though it might be an opportunity to get rid of the architectural disaster that is St John's Precinct and the Holiday Inn.

Re the (pre)Victorian tunneller, Mr Williamson: he has a starring role in the current series of Doctor Who. Not quite sure how he fits in yet though.

From the mainline to Merseyrail via the Edgehill tunnels? Which as far as I'm aware would run the trains into Central, which is at capacity, and would require a remodel. It's why the current Edgehill plans haven't already gone ahead. They have to sort Central out first before anything else can go ahead. Now, a 'cheap' solution might be to build a bypass line that goes to James Street (there's an old curve that's currently used to transfer trains between the two lines), which does have a spare platform, but that would then require getting said platform into service, and who knows how much work would be needed for that (it's a gamble).

Edit: As for your last part, I doubt Chibnall knows either

 

[snowball]

Tackling that Mersey red sandstone might be a challenge though, although there's fairly recent experience from the Loop/Link construction.

I thought it was ideal tunneling material - which may be one of the reasons Williamson built his tunnels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorting out Central wouldn't be too expensive as perhaps surprisingly there is almost nothing on top of it.

As for a Lime St tunnel, what's the point? Currently there is capacity for 2 London services an hour, and post HS2 it'll have 2 London services an hour (but faster). What additional capacity does it need? Answer: none.

 

[Sm5]

Liverpool Lime Street is a worthy station for HS2 in its own right.

if you get chance, go outside down the steps at night and look at it all lit up.

No matter how many billions the civ engs propose, it will never look that good underground.

 

[HST43257]

I felt that if a dedicated high speed line was needed, then the route from WBQ LL to Ditton and towards South Parkway, but tunnelling before any conflicts with regular services and freight are required.

The tunnel would follow the Merseyrail route into Liverpool, with 200m* platforms spanning a good amount of distance between Liverpool Central & Lime Street

* = My NPR services would be 200m long and my HS2 services would be 200m long after splitting at Crewe. They could be 400m platforms if looking to the future or looking at putting 1 train in on top of another in a platform.

 

[Chester1]

Sorting out Central wouldn't be too expensive as perhaps surprisingly there is almost nothing on top of it.

As for a Lime St tunnel, what's the point? Currently there is capacity for 2 London services an hour, and post HS2 it'll have 2 London services an hour (but faster). What additional capacity does it need? Answer: none.

There is likely to be a net gain in services between Liverpool and Manchester. I think all fast services would use NPR. The number of express services (four) may stay the same but local services would need to increase to avoid a massive drop in capacity of CLC and Chat Moss lines. It certainly doesn't justify a new high speed line but a capacity upgrade will be needed.

One option would be extending Merseyrail to Warrington Central (with Northern services from there to Manchester). Splitting CLC stopping services was considered as party of the Manchester recovery review. If South Parkway to Warrington Central was served only by Merseyrail and the two Chat Moss Express were replaced with two additional local services then Lime Street could be served by two London and four Manchester HS2/NPR services without a net increase in services.

 

[SuperNova]

As for a Lime St tunnel, what's the point? Currently there is capacity for 2 London services an hour, and post HS2 it'll have 2 London services an hour (but faster). What additional capacity does it need? Answer: none.

Plenty actually. NPR/TRU/HSN or whatever it's now called will most likely see 4tph and allows freeing up of capacity for more services on the Chat Moss. Liverpool Lime Street, despite the works done a few years ago, was starting to near capacity once again. So Lime Street is an issue.

 

[Chester1]

Plenty actually. NPR/TRU/HSN or whatever it's now called will most likely see 4tph and allows freeing up of capacity for more services on the Chat Moss. Liverpool Lime Street, despite the works done a few years ago, was starting to near capacity once again. So Lime Street is an issue.

It doesn't mean the solution is a new high speed line. We are talking about approximately 4tph increase, probably of local services. Four Liverpool to Manchester to Leeds express services via NPR would provide sufficient capacity with 200m HS sets. The extra services would be from replacing the four exisiting express services with additional stopping services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plenty actually. NPR/TRU/HSN or whatever it's now called will most likely see 4tph and allows freeing up of capacity for more services on the Chat Moss. Liverpool Lime Street, despite the works done a few years ago, was starting to near capacity once again. So Lime Street is an issue.

Though if you are talking local trains you could easily get a couple more platforms on the car park.

 

[MattRat]

I did just have another thought. What about Moorfields? You'd have to extend the tunnels to it, but the curve should still be OK, and except for adding a new dedicated platform for HS2, you don't really need to do 'much'. I've honestly thought for a while what a shame it is Moorfields is so underused, as it's a much nicer and more open station than Central, but maybe this will be the chance to unlock it's potential.

 

[SuperNova]

Though if you are talking local trains you could easily get a couple more platforms on the car park.

Doesn't solve the issue of the capacity in and out of Liverpool though.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely the cheap option is, as previously mentioned, to extend Merseyrail to Warrington Central as that removes 3 train services from Lime Street?

With services moved around you should be able to shake loose enough surplus capacity for NPR?

 

[tomuk]

Crayon time

• Modify Ditton East Junction so NPR (ex Fiddlers Ferry LL) lines join fasts.
• Modify Allerton Junc/Liverpool South Parkway to flyover/under so CLC joins the slows
• At Edge Hill Fasts moved to existing\new flyover, Slows connect to Liverpool Central via Wapping tunnel for CLC and Chat Moss lines for non CLC slows
• Lime Street close Platform 7 - Plats 6, 8 , 9 & 10 over 200m for HS2 and NPR - Plats 1-5 for Chat Moss/Slows

8 HS2/NPR per Hour 2tph HS2 London, 4tph NPR Manchester, 1tph Birmingham, 1tph Birmingham - Nottingham

 

[MattRat]

Surely the cheap option is, as previously mentioned, to extend Merseyrail to Warrington Central as that removes 3 train services from Lime Street?

With services moved around you should be able to shake loose enough surplus capacity for NPR?

I presume you mean by remodelling Liverpool Southparkway and electrifying the line down to Warrington Central as that would be the 'cheap' option.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Noting the wording of the title of this new thread, during the speech of the Government minister this week is one in which I think that no mention was made concerning a Liverpool direct HS2 connection that would include the cost of a new HS2 station. I think a peripheral link from Liverpool to the Rostherne area near to Manchester airport HS2 station is something that is involved.

Please correct any misapprehensions I might be under and let me know of the correct decision that was announced.

 

[HSTEd]

I presume you mean by remodelling Liverpool Southparkway and electrifying the line down to Warrington Central as that would be the 'cheap' option.

Why would you remodel South Parkway?

Whilst it would be desirable to provide two electrified tracks throughout, four trains per hour is supported by the current track layout and normal operational use of one platform at Hunts Cross.

If the western part of the CLC was dedicated to Merseyrail then the current reserve electrified platform would be the one in normal use, allowing trains to continue to Warrington without track modification, and return using the crossover east of the station

 

[tomuk]

Noting the wording of the title of this new thread, during the speech of the Government minister this week is one in which I think that no mention was made concerning a Liverpool direct HS2 connection that would include the cost of a new HS2 station. I think a peripheral link from Liverpool to the Rostherne area near to Manchester airport HS2 station is something that is involved.

Please correct any misapprehensions I might be under and let me know of the correct decision that was announced.

The proposal in the Integrated Rail Plan is a combined HS2/NPR new line from a junction on the Crewe - Manchester HS2 line at Rostherne\High Leigh to Warrington Bank Quay Low Level then reuse of the now defunct Fiddlers Ferry line to Ditton where the HS2/NPR trains can then run into Lime Street.

 

[MattRat]

Why would you remodel South Parkway?

Whilst it would be desirable to provide two electrified tracks throughout, four trains per hour is supported by the current track layout and normal operational use of one platform at Hunts Cross.

If the western part of the CLC was dedicated to Merseyrail then the current reserve electrified platform would be the one in normal use, allowing trains to continue to Warrington without track modification, and return using the crossover east of the station

Sorry, I got mixed up with another idea. It's Runcorn services that would require the remodelling, not Warrington. However, I think electrification of that part of the line would still be wise, as the Class 777 can fit OHLE, but not alongside third rail and battery tech, you have to pick just two instead of all three, and I don't think the batteries give enough range for Warrington.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the cheap option is, as previously mentioned, to extend Merseyrail to Warrington Central as that removes 3 train services from Lime Street?

With services moved around you should be able to shake loose enough surplus capacity for NPR?

Closing Mossley Hill and West Allerton? I can't see LNR wanting to serve those.

 

[HSTEd]

Closing Mossley Hill and West Allerton? I can't see LNR wanting to serve those.

Well ultimately in our brave new post GBR world LNR will do what they are told.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well ultimately in our brave new post GBR world LNR will do what they are told.

Fair point, and it could be recast into hourly Brum fast and hourly Crewe stopper as it used to be.

I do however support the "Warrington split" with Merseyrail one side and Metrolink the other, and NPR does provide the additional Warrington fast service to support it.

 

[HST43257]

I do however support the "Warrington split" with Merseyrail one side and Metrolink the other, and NPR does provide the additional Warrington fast service to support it.

Exactly. The pressure to provide fast services to Warrington on the CLC is greatly reduced.

My question would be: Is there any point in providing a 1tph semifast service on the full CLC to keep connections like Widnes to Manchester and Urmston to Liverpool?

Probably lots more cost for just a few extra cars so not worth it perhaps. The need for such a thing may also be reduced by the potential Widnes South station on NPR. What do others think?

 

[HSTEd]

Exactly. The pressure to provide fast services to Warrington on the CLC is greatly reduced.

My question would be: Is there any point in providing a 1tph semifast service on the full CLC to keep connections like Widnes to Manchester and Urmston to Liverpool?

Probably lots more cost for just a few extra cars so not worth it perhaps. The need for such a thing may also be reduced by the potential Widnes South station on NPR. What do others think?

I think try to mix and match Merseyrail and other services is asking for trouble.

If the line goes to Merseyrail it should go to Merseyrail.

I don't think many people are going to take 1tph direct over 4tph and changing at Warrington anyway.

 

[mwmbwls]

Should HS2 terminate(or rather call) in Liverpool at Underground platforms ? - Yes if the tunnels then extend under the Mersey and the Dee Estuaries and connect with the North Wales mainline. A Wirral Park and Ride would be the cherry on the sundae. Shame to waste a good TBM on a short tunnel.