• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Cross Country Trains produce a useful PRINTED Timetable booklet again.

Status
Not open for further replies.

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,436
Location
Ely
You can only get a printed timetable at the station, which suggests the person is already reasonably committed to getting the train.

They can be distributed beyond the station as I suggested, to libraries etc. It used to be common to see rail and bus timetables in local libraries.

It's intresting you mention the engineering information posters as off putting, but then suggest that a timetable booklet, that will be wrong during engineering, as a welcoming solution. Your average leisure passenger is going to be both unfamiliar with the railway and most likly to be traveling during engineering works (weekends).

Actually I think it is a good thing that the engineering posters are the 'public' side of the gateline, my complaint was that they shouldn't be the *only* information on the public side. And also that the most useful engineering poster wasn't posted.

My TOC produces marketing leaflets still, that are distributed to various local businesses, bus stations and so on. They recommend routes and what to see on the line, along with a rough guide to service frequency and where to plan your journey. There not just 59 pages of tables, which whilst be functional, offer no insight in to why you'd want to get the train.

Which sounds great and is exactly what TOCs should be doing in my opinion, but why not then combine the *why* with the *when* and *how* all in one?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Gaelan

Member
Joined
3 Apr 2023
Messages
835
Location
St Andrews
I'm personally not too fussed about printed timetables, but what I absolutely want is a static timetable. There's a time and a place for a journey planner, but far too often they make strange decisions about which journeys to show/hide, when I just want to sit down with a straightforward summary of the daily service pattern and sort things out for myself. I don't really mind if that's a PDF, or just a table on their website, as long as it's presented in more or less the traditional timetable format.

The movement by operators like Eurostar and Amtrak to remove the static timetables entirely in favor of just a journey planner drives me up the wall.

I'm also strongly in favor of every station having some reliable source of timetable information, whether that's a poster, a rack of leaflets, or a staffed ticket office, whatever, because people can end up without a phone for all sorts of reasons (by choice, can't afford one, battery just died, it just broke) and it should always be possible to at least go to the station and figure out when the trains are.
 

pokemonsuper9

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2022
Messages
1,811
Location
Greater Manchester
I'm also strongly in favor of every station having some reliable source of timetable information, whether that's a poster, a rack of leaflets, or a staffed ticket office, whatever, because people can end up without a phone for all sorts of reasons (by choice, can't afford one, battery just died, it just broke) and it should always be possible to at least go to the station and figure out when the trains are.
I think TVMs (at least some) can do this. Haven't tried it because I've had no need to.
 

scarby

Member
Joined
20 May 2011
Messages
746
As someone who sometimes wants to plan quite complicated journeys (for example, Sweden to the U.K., or various legs of an Interrail trip) the printed timetables of the European Rail Timetable are absolutely essential to me and online journey planners do not even come close.

To start with you can lay out the printed tables out on the table at home and with a pen mark out possible options. You simply don't get the broad overview of the whole day's workings on an online planner that you get with a paper timetable (for example, "Ah, look, in the afternoon I spot a once a day direct service from A to B").

Secondly online planners often "assume" passengers don't want to do/attempt certain things (e.g. attempt a 2 minute "connection" or use a much slower service) and the printed timetable has more than once come to my rescue when things have gone wrong, for example resorting to a series of German regional trains when an IC has been cancelled and/or sprinting through the underpass at Bremen station to grab a regional to Hamburg that I found in the printed timetable and without which I wouldn't have got to my final destination.
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,436
Location
Ely
I'm personally not too fussed about printed timetables, but what I absolutely want is a static timetable. There's a time and a place for a journey planner, but far too often they make strange decisions about which journeys to show/hide, when I just want to sit down with a straightforward summary of the daily service pattern and sort things out for myself. I don't really mind if that's a PDF, or just a table on their website, as long as it's presented in more or less the traditional timetable format.

Personally I agree with this - as long as they keep pushing out the NRT and I can have it with me on my iPad, I'm quite content. My concern is more that *others* still may find printed timetables useful, particlarly those less familiar with the railway than those of us who post here.

The movement by operators like Eurostar and Amtrak to remove the static timetables entirely in favor of just a journey planner drives me up the wall.

I miss the Amtrak timetable in particular. I still have the last version they did on my iPad.

I'm also strongly in favor of every station having some reliable source of timetable information, whether that's a poster, a rack of leaflets, or a staffed ticket office, whatever, because people can end up without a phone for all sorts of reasons (by choice, can't afford one, battery just died, it just broke) and it should always be possible to at least go to the station and figure out when the trains are.

I totally agree, but the cynic in me says that it is much easier for the TOCs if there isn't clear and obvious information about what *should* be running in black-and-white at the station.

As I've said before, I don't think it is remotely a coincidence that the 'timetable of the day' nonsense, 'short notice changes to the timetable' and a disregard for running last trains and keeping last connections has crept in across the railway *at exactly the same time* that it has become much harder to find out what *should* be running. It's also a lot harder to claim Delay Repay unless you've got a copy of what the timetable should have been.
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,685
I do wonder if the railways understand how unwelcoming they have become to people who aren't very familiar with the system.

Take Ely for example, since the 'improvements' done last year. There are three posters outside - one detailing the hours the ticket office is open, and two detailing Greater Anglia engineering work (neither being the most relevant one for Ely). Then you go inside, the ticket office is more often than not closed when it should be open, there are four ticket machines and the ticket barriers and some departure screens, and nothing else.

Until you're through the ticket barriers, there are no maps telling you where you can go or which operators run trains to where, no timetables telling you what services run or where they stop, nothing about first trains, last trains, connections, or anything else. The entire attitude is 'get your own information from the internet if you want to know anything at all, and if you can't or don't want to, we're not interested'.

A printed timetable booklet goes a long way to offering a 'way in' to the railway that otherwise no longer exists - especially if they are also distributed to local centres such as libraries and employment hubs.
If I wanted a 'way in' to using a service (of any kind, not just the railway) that I was unfamiliar with, I would look it up online. If anything, it's organisations with poor website information that put me off using them. Why would I want to go to a library to find printed information?
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,436
Location
Ely
If I wanted a 'way in' to using a service (of any kind, not just the railway) that I was unfamiliar with, I would look it up online. If anything, it's organisations with poor website information that put me off using them. Why would I want to go to a library to find printed information?

But some people still do - doesn't the railway want to appeal to as many people as possible?
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,436
Location
Ely
The railway takes the view that doing so is too expensive and that other ways of generating business are more cost-effective.

Does it, or is it just rather convenient that without printed timetables it is rather easier to get away with running whatever service they feel like, as opposed to what they 'should' be running, as I mentioned above?

Do we know the total cost of producing printed timetables in 2019? That would seem to be informative.
 

pokemonsuper9

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2022
Messages
1,811
Location
Greater Manchester
Does it, or is it just rather convenient that without printed timetables it is rather easier to get away with running whatever service they feel like, as opposed to what they 'should' be running, as I mentioned above?
The only place that can work is a metro-style service.
People would notice if their 9:31 disappears every now and then for no apparent reason, paper timetable or no.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,544
Location
No longer here
Does it, or is it just rather convenient that without printed timetables it is rather easier to get away with running whatever service they feel like, as opposed to what they 'should' be running, as I mentioned above?
I'm not sure I agree with that for the most part - most people use a journey planner and are certainly aware when their own particular train is delayed. However, for metro services you may have a point - I keep reading the "Elizabeth Line reliability" thread and I'm unaware of half those issues even though I use it nearly daily and it's next door to me. I just turn up and if one is in 7 minutes that's okay for me.

Do we know the total cost of producing printed timetables in 2019? That would seem to be informative.
No idea, but you could always FOI one of the operators for an answer.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,800
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
They can be distributed beyond the station as I suggested, to libraries etc. It used to be common to see rail and bus timetables in local libraries.
Realistically how many places even have libraries left, let alone have many use them? There probably aren't enough ticket offices, let alone other facilities to justify printing out reams of timetables for every TOC / routes any more. Most people have, and can access the internet these days, so for most people good online planners are going to be much more useful than paper timetables which will just gather dust. I accept that a few people might prefer paper ones, and I guess at a push these could be made available to print at home, or on demand to be posted or collected perhaps for a cost covering charge.
 

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
Printed timetables and maps can illustrate a rail or bus network in a way that a journey planner cannot.

Think how much more difficult using the London Underground would be if the iconic tube map was no longer produced, especially if you were unfamiliar with the system.

You can have online versions of maps and timetables for use by people with smartphones, tablets or laptops, but physical printed timetables and maps are still relevant.

Journey planners are useful of course, but they do have their limitations. The Transport for London journey planner, in particular, has been known to send people via indirect routes (eg. South Kensington to Liverpool Street changing at Green Park and Oxford Circus, rather than direct via the Circle Line) and the suggested routes are based on the assumption that services run exactly as timetabled.
 

robert thomas

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2019
Messages
281
Location
Neath
If I wanted a 'way in' to using a service (of any kind, not just the railway) that I was unfamiliar with, I would look it up online. If anything, it's organisations with poor website information that put me off using them. Why would I want to go to a library to find printed information?
Isn't that what libraries are for?
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,544
Location
No longer here
Realistically how many places even have libraries left, let alone have many use them? There probably aren't enough ticket offices, let alone other facilities to justify printing out reams of timetables for every TOC / routes any more. Most people have, and can access the internet these days, so for most people good online planners are going to be much more useful than paper timetables which will just gather dust. I accept that a few people might prefer paper ones, and I guess at a push these could be made available to print at home, or on demand to be posted or collected perhaps for a cost covering charge.
Timetables are able to be printed at home though - doesn't every TOC have PDF or other printable media of its timetables? https://timetables.southeasternrail.../2074/Table 1?daysetId=21886&date=&print=true
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,800
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire

gswindale

Member
Joined
1 Jun 2010
Messages
800
Printed timetables and maps can illustrate a rail or bus network in a way that a journey planner cannot.

Think how much more difficult using the London Underground would be if the iconic tube map was no longer produced, especially if you were unfamiliar with the system.

You can have online versions of maps and timetables for use by people with smartphones, tablets or laptops, but physical printed timetables and maps are still relevant.

Journey planners are useful of course, but they do have their limitations. The Transport for London journey planner, in particular, has been known to send people via indirect routes (eg. South Kensington to Liverpool Street changing at Green Park and Oxford Circus, rather than direct via the Circle Line) and the suggested routes are based on the assumption that services run exactly as timetabled.
I've known people use the underground for journeys that would be quicker on foot due to the "iconic tube map" giving no useful indication of distances

Whilst I would tend to go online to get info, I would argue that the individual route timetables are potentially more useful than a timetable book for the TOC.

We travelled from Exeter to Exmouth at the weekend - it was extremely easy to check that coming back our train was due in 16 minutes and it should take 13 minutes to walk to the station (so we decided to take a more leisurely walk and aim for the next one due to having a 3 year old in tow who was getting slightly grouchy about walking) from Google Maps. Would I have wanted to carry the complete GWR timetable book with me? Probably not - goodness knows how big it would be! But a leaflet with the Avocet line times on may have been useful.

I would agree that any printable PDF timetables should be formatted for A4 printing - depending on the route, either landscape or portrait (for instance Waterloo - Reading/Windsor should probably be Portrait, but the West Midlands Railway Birmingham -> Wolverhampton one could well be done on a landscape orientation)
 

Scott1

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2015
Messages
377
They can be distributed beyond the station as I suggested, to libraries etc. It used to be common to see rail and bus timetables in local libraries.

Which sounds great and is exactly what TOCs should be doing in my opinion, but why not then combine the *why* with the *when* and *how* all in one?
I'd imagine most libraries have a computer to look it up, but these days who goes in a library? That's why they closed most.

The timetable is in the leaflets but only as a direction to a website, or a barcode, because it would mean re producing the leaflet every 6 months, and it being wrong whenever engineering works take place. One leaflet did include the timetable for a while and it just caused grief because people would turn up not knowing it was an engineering weekend.
 

Dan G

Member
Joined
12 May 2021
Messages
543
Location
Exeter
An online journey planner shows you how you can do a journey. A paper map and timetable booklet shows you journeys you can do...
 

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
An online journey planner shows you how you can do a journey. A paper map and timetable booklet shows you journeys you can do...

This is a very good definition of the purpose of a journey planner and a timetable or map.

A map won't usually tell you how often a bus or train runs, but a journey planner won't tell you, for example, that Heathrow Airport is served by both the Elizabeth Line and the Piccadilly Line.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,425
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
An online journey planner shows you how you can do a journey. A paper map and timetable booklet shows you journeys you can do...

This is very true, and timetables can be very useful.

What would be handy, rather than paper, would be a version of bustimes.org for rail which allows any route timetable to be called up based on data as it stands for a selected date.
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,436
Location
Ely
I'd imagine most libraries have a computer to look it up, but these days who goes in a library? That's why they closed most.

I think that was more due to austerity politics than demand. The libraries that are left around here are very popular.
 

Silenos

Member
Joined
13 Dec 2022
Messages
309
Location
Norfolk
I think that was more due to austerity politics than demand. The libraries that are left around here are very popular.
Partly to keep warm in, perhaps…?

Returning to topic, the point that a timetable and route map allow you to see what journeys are possible is a good one, and suggests that they might lead customers to make a journey that they would not otherwise think of if restricted to journey planners alone. However a <strong emphasis>well-designed</emphasis> printable timetable available online, together with a small print-run for major termini, might well be adequate and could easily be covered as a line in the advertising budget.

Here in Norfolk both Lynx (despite having an app with live tracking) and Sanders continue to produce printed timetables for the buses, available onboard and from selected tourist offices. It’s surprising how many visitors you see clutching one, phones or no.
 
Last edited:

andythebrave

Member
Joined
8 Oct 2009
Messages
485
Location
In the Marston Vale
Of course, back in the day, I'd get, initially, the separate regions timetables and, latterly, the national one.

Once the most relevant tables had been identified it was not difficult to memorise times, stops and catering facilities. I even had names for the latter, 'cups of tea' and 'griddle' spring to mind.

They were extraordinarily useful in identifying potential days out of interest (and journeys over several days).

There were supplements issued on an ad hoc basis when errors were identified or when extended possessions were announced but as the knowledge of the base timetable had already been acquired it was simple to identify what was relevant and what was not.

The national timetable is still available online but, to be frank, it is painfully slow to do the equivalent of getting from, for example, table 65 northbound mid morning to table 226 westbound afternoon whereas the physical book would permit such an action within seconds.

The physical book did also contain a two sided national rail map with all stations and lines (helped on the obverse by expanded maps of the London area, Birmingham, Glasgow and [I'm hazy on this one] Liverpool/Manchester) and, this, provided a complete, all in one place reference on how to go from and to anywhere.

Of course the haphazard nature of what runs and what doesn't on the day nowadays means that a printed timetable would be less of use but that is a failing of the system as a whole to provide consistent service rather than a failing of the information medium.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,639
Location
London
Yes you can; Stagecoach (Oxford and Fife) and the Oxford Bus Company supply printed timetables, which are regularly re-issued when required.

Thanks. I must admit I’m surprised by that. Then again timetables are less of a “thing” in London where many buses run every X minutes.
 

greyman42

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2017
Messages
4,985
We are getting to the point where mastering the basics of using technology is as important as the ability to read and write.
Being able to use technology is nowhere near as important to being able to read and write.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,639
Location
London
Being able to use technology is nowhere near as important to being able to read and write.

I said we’re getting to the point where using the basics of technology is as important.

Unless you’re suggesting that someone who cannot use a computer, the internet, or even a basic mobile phone could have any kind of functional lifestyle in 2023? You would simply be excluded from many aspects of modern life; good luck getting any kind of job, for one thing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top