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D&G Buses

northwichcat

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Whilst it may be difficult to "contract", they can ask operators how much it would cost to provide the desired enhancements, and providing it doesn't fall foul of other restrictions can be funded "de minimis".

In the case of onelink in Crewe it would be lower post-COVID due to working from home. However, the cutbacks started before that and, for people who have a choice of working from home or on site, it's probably going to make working from home even more attractive. I normally work from home but I wouldn't be against having more face to face contact with team members. However, if it's too difficult to get to a physical location due to poor transport links, strikes etc. then I'm not exactly going to push for more face to face time.

I think you have to ask yourselves how many people were using the bus when the frequency was every 15 minutes, and would they still be there if that frequency still ran today. Even if they were, would it cover the costs that have increased in the interim (fuel, vehicle, wages, etc.). If the answer is no, I think you have your answer why the frequency has not been retained. It's not as though similar things aren't happening in areas Chaserider/D&G/Centrebus have never touched...

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the cutting back started around the time GHA Coaches collapsed and partly related to them and High Peak being over-ambitious in commercial attempts of services that were previously contracted as a way of marking their terriority.
 
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317 forever

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Which then relies on the commercial operator actually wanting to make the change. If they're taking a bus off a public route to run a school contract, they won't necessarily have a spare vehicle and driver to fill in the gap. While the W7 is contracted, I wouldn't imagine Stagecoach would give up their contracted college service in order to provide longer hours for the Winsford local, even if the council offered them money for doing it.



Not only did Cheshire East and Cheshire West lose out in that bidding. Warrington's successful bid meant one cross-border was actually cut back as the result of changes made from BSIP funding! That was the 47 that included 3 return workings to High Legh and 2 extending to Knutsford. It's now a revised route with a much higher frequency but only in the Warrington borough. While Cheshire East have a bit of funding freed up from their contribution to the old 47, it's not really enough to offer much in the form of an ITT and a Knutsford to High Legh shuttle would be less viable, without any through journeys to Warrington being made.



Arriva have pulled out of almost everywhere in the North West! However, they haven't pulled out of Cheshire completely. They still have depots in the Chester and Runcorn areas. Unlike Stagecoach they've opted against running any public services in Winsford, Northwich and Crewe from a Chester area base. (Stagecoach operated the 48 Northwich-Frodsham before D&G won the most recent contract award). I haven't checked but when I asked about the school services Arriva operated from the Winsford depot, the response I got was they'll continue to run them from Runcorn. I don't know if that was confirmed and if they are still doing that.

I also don't think a big operator pulling out is automatically the sign of a bad bus terriority, especially considering Stagecoach have purchased depots from First Bus in both Greater Manchester and Cheshire. And didn't Arriva buy a Stagecoach depot in Yorkshire at one point?

I believe the Winsford depot needed a lot of work doing on it and the Macclesfield depot was treated as an outstation of Winsford, which was a major factor in them both being declared unviable by Arriva.



Cheshire councils have increased their taxes by the maximum allowed by the government every year. They've also delegated some services (like public toilets) to newly formed town councils so the town council can add a premium on to council tax for services, which isn't covered by the government cap.

I would actually say the two Labour led councils of Cheshire West and Cheshire East would be in favour of getting more funding in for transport overall. However, it's difficult to increase the proportion spent on buses when the roads are in such a bad state, and I suppose roads full of potholes don't attract bus operators to put in cheap bids for tenders, as they'll need to factor in vehicle potentially needing attention more frequently.
Yes, that is in Huddersfield. It has been Yorkshire Traction, then Yorkshire Tiger but now part of Team Pennine since being divested to Transdev.

Coming back to D&G, given that it was taken over by CentreBus a few years ago, I wonder whether buses will eventually be rebranded as CentreBus?
 

northwichcat

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markymark2000

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No wonder nobody uses them.
When people tried to use them when they first took over Winsford routes, there were numerous reports on local community Facebook groups that they provided too little capacity so a number of buses at school times were full, standing and leaving passengers behind. Exact same happened when they took over the Northwich 82 as well, they never did any due diligence checks to see how many kids were using the college journeys, they provided a mid sized E200 rather than the double deckers Arriva was providing, kids got left behind in Kelsall. Needless to say they had to scramble and get a dupe put on.

As both the Cat9 and 89 are subsided, Cheshire West really need to push for these to be coordinated to ensure there's an hourly service from Wincham to Northwich. The Northwich locals serve three tourist attractions - the museum, the boat lift and Marbury Park and they could serve the salt works as well but I doubt many visitors use the bus because they're infrequent and don't connect with rail services.
Bit difficult I suppose when both routes are operated for demand primarily out of the area. The 89 is a Cheshire East tender and is heavily swayed towards usage there and the CAT 9 is swayed towards demand in and out of Warrington.

Then there is BSIP monies or has neither Cheshire authority been successful?
They have both gotten BSIP+ funds and both are wasting it. Cheshire East's is paying for D&G and High Peak (one full owned by Centrebus, the other half owned but fully managed by Centrebus) to have a multi operator ticket in Macclesfield. That is what I mean about their 'friendships'. D&G already used to advertise that their tickets were valid on High Peak services in Macclesfield, it just wasn't very well advertised and really, there is no reason why a multi operator ticket wasn't already in place in Macclesfield seeing as D&G and High Peak come back to Centrebus ownership and at times, D&G and High Peak shared routes like the 19! No reason at all other than D&G and High Peak are both begs and want council funding for everything.

Cheshire West's is being wasted on giving a free month on the Chester P&R.

Incorrect. They will run the MINIMUM service level they feel able to
They want to be a commercial private company but entirely propped up by taxpayers funds and not taking any commercial risk. I think the only time that they run things commercially is when they are competing (84X) or the council has got to a stage where they say 'We can't be seen to be doing tenders for a route which is viable' (As has happened elsewhere such as in Merseyside).
 
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Contains Nuts

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They have both gotten BSIP+ funds and both are wasting it. Cheshire East's is paying for D&G and High Peak (one full owned by Centrebus, the other half owned but fully managed by Centrebus) to have a multi operator ticket in Macclesfield. That is what I mean about their 'friendships'. D&G already used to advertise that their tickets were valid on High Peak services in Macclesfield, it just wasn't very well advertised and really, there is no reason why a multi operator ticket wasn't already in place in Macclesfield seeing as D&G and High Peak come back to Centrebus ownership and at times, D&G and High Peak shared routes like the 19! No reason at all other than D&G and High Peak are both begs and want council funding for everything.
Where do you get the idea that Cheshire East have paid for a multi-operator ticket? As far as I am aware there is no such example of a council-funded multi operator ticket anywhere. Money is usually pooled and distributed by the local authority and sometimes they take a cut for admin costs, but they don’t normally contribute to the takings.

I’d be interested to see what proof you have of this?
 

markymark2000

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Where do you get the idea that Cheshire East have paid for a multi-operator ticket? As far as I am aware there is no such example of a council-funded multi operator ticket anywhere. Money is usually pooled and distributed by the local authority and sometimes they take a cut for admin costs, but they don’t normally contribute to the takings.
Cheshire East is using BSIP+ funds set up the ticket. They are using £55-£65k of taxpayers money to set up a ticket that should already be in place as a commercial offering.

Cheshire East Council Highways and Transport Committee Meeting for 23rd November 2023:

Scroll to item 9, you get 'Local Bus Support Criteria' and click the title to download the PDF (or click here). While it is about the bus support criteria, it does include other information on the BSIP+ funding.

Page 6 says
Initiative 3 Introduce a multi-operator ticket in Macclesfield and surrounding area, with the subsequent development of a similar Crewe-area product if the concept in Macclesfield proves to be successful.

The other document under item 9 is the appendix, this has a lot of other information but does say on page 37.
introduce a multi-operator ticket in Macclesfield and surrounding area, with local bus operators - includes £35k for feasibility study on fare and revenue implications, with £20-30k marketing/back room costs for setting up the multi-operator ticketing.
£55,000-£65,000
This 'Multi operator ticket' you may presume is valid on all buses in the area. It's not, it's only valid on D&G And High Peak. Not even valid on the Belle Vue 391/392 which are fully controlled by Cheshire East Council, nor the Aimees 109 which is a Staffordshire Tender (but I believe part funded by Cheshire East). The ticket is a rip off anyway but this is what I mean about the strong 'friendship' between D&G and Cheshire East Council. A ticket which only benefits them and their sister company and is something that was already done. Back when D&G has less of an presence in Macclesfield, there was ticket acceptance between D&G and High Peak, on webarchives for July 2021, their tickets tab says
Network Return tickets can also be used to make journeys on all services operated by Midland Classic and Select Bus Services, and on High Peak services operating within the Macclesfield area.
Now that text has suddenly gone and now Cheshire East are paying to set up a Macclesfield multi operator ticket to benefit just High Peak and D&G. Very convenient coincidence?
 

Tetchytyke

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And didn't Arriva buy a Stagecoach depot in Yorkshire at one point?
Not directly. The Huddersfield operations of Yorkshire Traction were sold shortly after the Stagecoach takeover to Centrebus Holdings. Centrebus Holdings was a joint venture between Centrebus and Arriva, with Arriva the 40% minority partner.

Eventually Arriva bought Centrebus out and then, even later, sold out to Transdev.

Where do you get the idea that Cheshire East have paid for a multi-operator ticket?
I think they’ve noted there’s a D&G/High Peak Macclesfield zone ticket and has decided this has been paid for by the council.

Despite the obvious synergies between D&G and High Peak, it should be remembered that High Peak is a separate operation and that High Peak is 50% owned by Trent Barton. So I’m still not seeing an issue.
 

northwichcat

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Cheshire East is using BSIP+ funds set up the ticket. They are using £55-£65k of taxpayers money to set up a ticket that should already be in place as a commercial offering.

I didn't realise they have BSIP funding. I'm pretty sure the first trench got diverted to become COVID support and they missed out on the second trench.

This 'Multi operator ticket' you may presume is valid on all buses in the area. It's not, it's only valid on D&G And High Peak. Not even valid on the Belle Vue 391/392 which are fully controlled by Cheshire East Council, nor the Aimees 109 which is a Staffordshire Tender (but I believe part funded by Cheshire East). The ticket is a rip off anyway but this is what I mean about the strong 'friendship' between D&G and Cheshire East Council. A ticket which only benefits them and their sister company and is something that was already done. Back when D&G has less of an presence in Macclesfield, there was ticket acceptance between D&G and High Peak, on webarchives for July 2021, their tickets tab says

Now that text has suddenly gone and now Cheshire East are paying to set up a Macclesfield multi operator ticket to benefit just High Peak and D&G. Very convenient coincidence?

Are you sure that's what's being referred to?

The document mentions 6 initiatives for Sep 2023-Sep 2024 and they all seem to relate to promoting usage of existing bus services.

I notice number 5 is:
Develop ‘hub stops’ along the service 38 route
(Macclesfield – Crewe), to complement the introduction of
new vehicles by the bus operator. This will demonstrate
improved quality and a better bus passenger experience
on a core inter-urban route within Cheshire East. The
approach will provide a template for other key bus routes
to be improved with funding in future years.

Presumably that means the brand new MMCs will be the normal vehicles for the 38, not just the route they've ended up on in the first instance. And presumably it means the Cheshire East initiative is still to come and details on what it actually means are still required!

Despite the obvious synergies between D&G and High Peak, it should be remembered that High Peak is a separate operation and that High Peak is 50% owned by Trent Barton. So I’m still not seeing an issue.

I get the impression High Peak and D&G do not attempt to compete with one another, either in the tendering process or in registered commercial services.
 

Tetchytyke

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I get the impression High Peak and D&G do not attempt to compete with one another, either in the tendering process or in registered commercial services.
Of course they don't, Wellglade are pretty much a silent partner in High Peak- the day-to-day management is by Centrebus.

But they are separate operators with separate ownership, so the question is why should they offer a multi-operator ticket at their own commercial cost? But the poster you are interacting with generally takes the position that all councils are useless and all operators are useless and everything is useless. I thought I was cynical!
 

markymark2000

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I didn't realise they have BSIP funding. I'm pretty sure the first trench got diverted to become COVID support and they missed out on the second trench.
Cheshire East didn't get any BSIP funding in the main round but then everyone (I think) who didn't get funds the first time around has got BSIP+ funding. More information on the funding allocations can be found on the Gov website

But they are separate operators with separate ownership, so the question is why should they offer a multi-operator ticket at their own commercial cost?
They will happily have ticket acceptance with Select and at the time Midland Classic; the only link between them is/was Julian Peddles limited involvement. Until recently they refused to do ticket acceptance with Chaserider, who they actually own! Even now, the only acceptance is the little Uttoxeter zone, and they refuse to have any meaningful ticket acceptance with High Peak despite High Peak being managed by and 50% owned by Centrebus, who own D&G.

They will happily virtue signal that they work with High Peak on the Peak Plus Xtra ticket but they know that ticket is useless to almost anyone as it's only valid on D&G 19 in Macclesfield and the 108 (Ashbourne - Buxton). What a random set of services and how useless in terms of its multi operator validity with D&G. Both firms can clearly do multi operator tickets commercially; they choose not to do it though where it could be useful to passengers because they want funding instead for that and want to scrounge off the taxpayer. If this was the big firms doing this, you'd be criticising (and indeed people did criticise the likes of Arriva/Yorkshire Tiger) yet it's somehow acceptable for D&G to do it?

D&G only removed their ticket acceptance as soon as they realised that they could rinse Cheshire East council for a bit more money and how convenient that the new Macclesfield Zone ticket only supports D&G and High Peak. Cheshire East wouldn't dare do the Crewe zone first because it would benefit other operators and it would mean D&G wouldn't benefit from it as much (in fact it would negatively effect D&G because of the 84). If others are too blinded to see it, that's up to them but to me and others, it is crystal clear what is going on

But the poster you are interacting with generally takes the position that all councils are useless and all operators are useless and everything is useless.
Not all, there are some decent councils and operators out there. They are just heavily outnumbered. When you have dealt with the number of operators and councils that I have, you start to see things rather differently. Stories aren't for this topic though
 
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Tetchytyke

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they refuse to have any meaningful ticket acceptance with High Peak despite High Peak being managed by and 50% owned by Centrebus, who own D&G.
Any “meaningful acceptance” has a commercial impact on revenue, and as you note High Peak is only half owned by Centrebus.

There’s also an anti-competition aspect if the two operators just work together on a commercial basis.

I know Julian Peddle can be a divisive figure, but I don’t see the issue here.
 
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markymark2000

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There’s also an anti-competition aspect if the two operators just work together on a commercial basis.
So you're ignoring the Select/Chaserider situation then where, with the full network, Telford and Stafford & Cannock zone tickets are completely interchangeable between the two firms? Also ignoring the many, many other examples out there of multi operator tickets offered commercially such as Red Group in Aylesbury and the High Peak/TM Travel Peak Plus Xtra ticket.

There is also a multi operator bus ticket exemption from the Competitions and Markets Authority if certain conditions are met (too much to quote)

You're just making up barriers now to defend the indefensible.

Any “meaningful acceptance” has a commercial impact on revenue, and as you note High Peak is only half owned by Centrebus.
Some impact but if it was done properly, it would encourage more users to the bus network (I know, not D&Gs speciality but hear me out) which would level it off. Demand is suppressed due to the ticketing situation. A Macclesfield zone could be set at a reasonable fare which satisfies both operators (around £5). Nothing wrong with a higher priced multi operator ticket too for the larger networks, as long as that price isn't priced so high in a deliberate attempt to stop people buying it.
 

33117

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Trying to get things a bit not so debatable, (makes for heavy reading haha)

The MMCs for the 38s I've heard are being fitted with next stop announcements. Noticed today on 576 that it's been fitted with a display down the front & also when they were delivered they had speakers fitted.


Small shades of sapphire (ish) spec coming through lol. 38s now seem to be solely MMC worked bar a few times this week when other vehicles have covered whilst the MMCs have next stop equipment fitted. Evening turns from macc are usually the ex cardiff motors which although only 33 seaters should be able to cope.
 

markymark2000

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Trying to get things a bit not so debatable, (makes for heavy reading haha)

The MMCs for the 38s I've heard are being fitted with next stop announcements. Noticed today on 576 that it's been fitted with a display down the front & also when they were delivered they had speakers fitted.


Small shades of sapphire (ish) spec coming through lol. 38s now seem to be solely MMC worked bar a few times this week when other vehicles have covered whilst the MMCs have next stop equipment fitted. Evening turns from macc are usually the ex cardiff motors which although only 33 seaters should be able to cope.
Interesting. I didn't expect to see that from D&G but then again with it becoming in just over 2 years, it's wise to start somewhere and the newest buses is a good place.
 

33117

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Interesting. I didn't expect to see that from D&G but then again with it becoming in just over 2 years, it's wise to start somewhere and the newest buses is a good place.
It is positive news aye, the only other vehicles that have owt similar are the DF streetlites.

They have the displays showing the destination & route number.

Attached is a photo, apologies for quality not being brilliant but it's took off my phone. Shows the display at the front.
 

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Cesarcollie

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D&G only seem to use those to show the route number and destination, not even via points.

That is what the regulations require starting in October 2024 (on the newest buses to start) - route number, ultimate destination, next stop. Audio and visual. Via points as well would be overload - it would be worse than the railway!
 

ACBest

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Interesting. I didn't expect to see that from D&G but then again with it becoming in just over 2 years, it's wise to start somewhere and the newest buses is a good place.
For the newest vehicles (anything which entered service on or after September 2019), it comes in to force in just 10 months time - they have to be fitted with the equipment, and it must be operational by October.
 

northwichcat

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That is what the regulations require starting in October 2024 (on the newest buses to start) - route number, ultimate destination, next stop. Audio and visual. Via points as well would be overload - it would be worse than the railway!

You're missing the point. At present the Streetlite DFs only show the final destination and route number - nothing else at all, not even the next stop information that you referred to. If one was being used on a 88 Altrincham-Macclesfield journey, it wouldn't give the passengers any clue to Wilmslow passengers that it's not the direct Macclesfield bus, and takes around twice as long as the more direct 130 route.

For the newest vehicles (anything which entered service on or after September 2019), it comes in to force in just 10 months time - they have to be fitted with the equipment, and it must be operational by October.

I wonder if that'll mean second hand 6 year old vehicles increase in value, as operators know buying one of them gives an exemption for now.
 

Mollman

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For the newest vehicles (anything which entered service on or after September 2019), it comes in to force in just 10 months time - they have to be fitted with the equipment, and it must be operational by October.
I thought it was only vehicles new in and after October this year that has to have them fitted. With the rest to follow by October 2026?
 

ACBest

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I thought it was only vehicles new in and after October this year that has to have them fitted. With the rest to follow by October 2026?
No - the key dates are as follows:
  • Vehicles new from Oct 2024 must be fitted from new
  • Vehicles new between Oct 2019-Sep 2024 must be fitted by Oct 2024
  • Vehicles new between Oct 2014-Sep 2019 must be fitted by Oct 2025
  • Vehicles new between Jan 1973-Sep 2014 must be fitted by Oct 2026
(The word fitted above also refers to the equipment being fully operational and making next stop announcements!)

In batch one, both Chaserider and D&G’s E200MMCs and Evoras are up for fitment - although keep your eyes peeled for some bonus vehicles which have been brought forwards - such as the slightly older (2018/19) MMCs at Chaserider, which will be fitted alongside the newer ones to keep things consistent between the Travel Telford branded vehicles.
 
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Mollman

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No - the key dates are as follows:
  • Vehicles new from Oct 2024 must be fitted from new
  • Vehicles new between Oct 2019-Sep 2024 must be fitted by Oct 2024
  • Vehicles new between Oct 2014-Sep 2019 must be fitted by Oct 2025
  • Vehicles new between Jan 1973-Sep 2014 must be fitted by Oct 2026
(The word fitted above also refers to the equipment being fully operational and making next stop announcements!)

In batch one, both Chaserider and D&G’s E200MMCs and Evoras are up for fitment - although keep your eyes peeled for some bonus vehicles which have been brought forwards - such as the slightly older (2018/19) MMCs at Chaserider, which will be fitted alongside the newer ones to keep things consistent between the Travel Telford branded vehicles.
It is going to be tight then given we are still awaiting details of the fund for SME operators from the DfT.
 

ACBest

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It is going to be tight then given we are still awaiting details of the fund for SME operators from the DfT.
Very true! That’s being administered by an organisation called RTIG - I was told that full information would be hopefully be available by Christmas, but that has of course passed us by, so I assume there’s a sticking point holding things up.

If I remember correctly, in the original proposal for the legislation, a small operator was described as one operating 20 vehicles or less, so it somewhat restricted the number of operators who would be eligible for it!

I apologise, I’m wandering a little off-topic at this point!
 

northwichcat

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D&G had a bad start to the day. Vehicle 31 failed on the first Macclesfield to Knutsford, so wasn't available to do the following 188 journey. Consequently, they diverted the 07:03 Altrincham to Knutsford to run via Pepper Street, meaning it got behind schedule. Presumably as vehicle 38 was assigned that journey it was too small - as they sent it back up to Mobberley afterwards to do another run into Knutsford Academy (untracked by bus times). They then sent it up to Hale Barns, meaning the 08:20 Knutsford to Altrincham was part cancelled. Some people will have been very late for work! Seems the 09:12 Knutsford to Northwich journey on the 89 ran to time with a replacement vehicle.
 

Shauny

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The MMCs for the 38s I've heard are being fitted with next stop announcements. Noticed today on 576 that it's been fitted with a display down the front & also when they were delivered they had speakers fitted.
The speakers were fitted at the same time that the screen was fitted.
 
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SeanM1997

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I travelled on one of the new MMCs yesterday and bustimes said they had USB points but sadly they didn't. Hopefully they will get installed as quite a long journey from Crewe to Macclesfield
 

northwichcat

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I travelled on one of the new MMCs yesterday and bustimes said they had USB points but sadly they didn't. Hopefully they will get installed as quite a long journey from Crewe to Macclesfield

There aren't many people using it end-to-end. It's really three separate services running as one through one - Macclesfield to Congleton, Congleton to Sandbach and Sandbach to Crewe. The main reason people travel to Crewe is for trains but Macclesfield has direct trains to Birmingham and London. Even Congleton has connections at Stoke for long distance trains.
 

SeanM1997

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I travelled along the 1745 38 Crewe - Macclesfield yesterday. Surprisingly around 27 between Crewe and Sandbach at maximum which shocked me, much less after that. Its a shame the 1845 doesn't continue to Macclesfield which feels a hangover from Arriva times and could be extended given the depots are in Crewe and Nantwich

Several routes look like they should continue further which the 31/37 changes fix slightly from 5th February

1845 38 Crewe - Congleton (why not Macclesfield?)
1740 85 Newcastle - Crewe (why not Marshfield to give a later Crewe Station - Marshfield link and then can do a return to Crewe Station, extending run card by just 45 mins?)

Why is there no 1748 12 Shavington - Crewe/Leighton when the 1708 Leighton - Shavington terminates in Shavington leaving 1h30 gap in service
 

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