Delays on integrated non-rail services

[Gaelan]

Stagecoach's 99 bus service is integrated into both the rail network timetable and fares. Let's say I hold an advance ticket from St Andrews Bus to Edinburgh. For whatever reason, the 99 is delayed, and I miss my train.

• Am I allowed to board a later train?
• Am I eligible for delay repay?

Does the situation change if I instead hold a ticket from Leuchars to Edinburgh, and pay for my bus travel another way (for example, one of Scotland's free bus travel schemes, using a university-subsidized season ticket, or by buying a student-discounted ticket from the bus driver)?

(Note I ask this mostly hypothetically; the 99 is in fact quite reliable, and I never get the last possible bus.)

 

[avid2424]

I had no joy a few years ago re a much delayed bus journey - main road blocked by traffic accident - bus from Minehead to Taunton, an obvious replacement to a closed railway line. With the bus ticket bought separately - to save money compared with buying the available through rail ticket from Minehead Bus to London Paddington. Ticket office at Taunton sold me a new ticket for my rail journey onward from Taunton to London Paddington

If you have a through bus and rail advance ticket and you are not allowed to join a later train, then you would have travelled short. And be exposed to a penalty etc

 

[wibble]

You wouldn't be entitled to delay repay as that would only apply where a train company delays your journey. Any travel on a third party operator is subject to their conditions of travel and I don't think any bus company offer compensation for delays so in the event the bus is delayed, you're not entitled to any compensation.

 

[crablab]

You wouldn't be entitled to delay repay as that would only apply where a train company delays your journey.

I'm not sure the NRCoT makes any such distinction? Admittedly it's isn't clear exactly what the situation is, but delay repay is explicitly permitted for Rail Replacement services, so the argument that it "only applies to trains" doesn't seem to hold water.

When buying a ticket against an itinerary that forms a contract between the retailer and the passenger. It's of no concern to the passenger which "third party operator" is providing that service for a leg of the journey, whether it be GWR, Avanti or Stagecoach. By offering that bus leg as part of the through ticket a contract to deliver it has been formed.

 

[wibble]

I'm not sure the NRCoT makes any such distinction? Admittedly it's isn't clear exactly what the situation is, but delay repay is explicitly permitted for Rail Replacement services, so the argument that it "only applies to trains" doesn't seem to hold water.

When buying a ticket against an itinerary that forms a contract between the retailer and the passenger. It's of no concern to the passenger which "third party operator" is providing that service for a leg of the journey, whether it be GWR, Avanti or Stagecoach. By offering that bus leg as part of the through ticket a contract to deliver it has been formed.

A "Rail replacement service" would still be classed a "train", e.g. due to engineering work or disruption.

4.4 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel makes this distinction
Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party (for instance the right to travel on bus services). Where this is the case, your Ticket is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party, whose own conditions will apply when using their services.

and, under "How to make claims under industry arrangements", 33.2:

If you have a claim or a complaint about your journey, the Train Company you contact will help you either by dealing with the matter itself or by passing it on to the relevant Train Company, Rail Service Provider or other third party(s) or person(s) providing the goods or services in question. Claims will be considered without undue delay and any compensation due will be paid within 14 days of your claim being agreed by the Train Company. The target is to process all claims within one month of receipt.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I've successfully claimed Delay Repay when an RRB ended up completing its journey two hours late (! - the driver got lost, went miles out of his way and got caught up in substantial traffic congestion in a city he had no cause to be in before eventually getting back on route!!!).

Unfortunately I'd be very surprised if any such terms apply to any other form of bus transport, whether on through ticketing (like the St Andrews example) or on Plusbus.

 

[RT4038]

A "Rail replacement service" would still be classed a "train", e.g. due to engineering work or disruption.

4.4 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel makes this distinction
Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party (for instance the right to travel on bus services). Where this is the case, your Ticket is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party, whose own conditions will apply when using their services.

and, under "How to make claims under industry arrangements", 33.2:

If you have a claim or a complaint about your journey, the Train Company you contact will help you either by dealing with the matter itself or by passing it on to the relevant Train Company, Rail Service Provider or other third party(s) or person(s) providing the goods or services in question. Claims will be considered without undue delay and any compensation due will be paid within 14 days of your claim being agreed by the Train Company. The target is to process all claims within one month of receipt.

4.4. 'that other party', whose own conditions will apply when using their services (i.e. the bus company in this case) will unlikely have a delay repay scheme, and even if they do, it will not extend to parts of the journey on other undertakings.
33.2 The Rail TOC may well agree to delay repay on the railway section of the journey. However, I can understand them not doing that, but making you buy new tickets (or not refunding those purchased) is a bit much.

 

[Hadders]

Stagecoach's 99 bus service is integrated into both the rail network timetable and fares. Let's say I hold an advance ticket from St Andrews Bus to Edinburgh. For whatever reason, the 99 is delayed, and I miss my train.

• Am I allowed to board a later train?
• Am I eligible for delay repay?

Does the situation change if I instead hold a ticket from Leuchars to Edinburgh, and pay for my bus travel another way (for example, one of Scotland's free bus travel schemes, using a university-subsidized season ticket, or by buying a student-discounted ticket from the bus driver)?

(Note I ask this mostly hypothetically; the 99 is in fact quite reliable, and I never get the last possible bus.)

If you hold an integrated ticket from St Andrews Bus to Edinburgh and are delayed by the bus then you are entitled to take the next train. You wouldn’t be entitled to delay repay as the bus operator who delayed you isn’t part of the delay repay scheme.

If you have separate bus and rail tickets then you wouldn’t be entitled to board the next train (unless your ticket was flexible). This applies to PlusBus as these are not integrated bus/rail tickets.

Rail replacement buses are different. They are considered a train so you would be entitled to board the next train and to claim delay repay if you meet the delay threshold.

 

[MrJeeves]

You wouldn’t be entitled to delay repay as the bus operator who delayed you isn’t part of the delay repay scheme.

Hypothetically, what about the statutory 1h+ delay compensation written into the NRCoT? I assume they're not bound by the NRCoT despite being part of an integrated ticketing offer.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I've successfully claimed Delay Repay when an RRB ended up completing its journey two hours late (! - the driver got lost, went miles out of his way and got caught up in substantial traffic congestion in a city he had no cause to be in before eventually getting back on route!!!).

Unfortunately I'd be very surprised if any such terms apply to any other form of bus transport, whether on through ticketing (like the St Andrews example) or on Plusbus.

How did you prove the RRB was late?

For the last week, Northampton has enjoyed a RRB service to Milton Keynes.It runs every 10 minutes from around 0400 to the very late evening while the track is rebuilt for a new freight terminal. On R.T.T. a 'schedule' but no 'actual' is always shown. Every journey on NRES arrival boards is shown as 'on time'.

 

[Hadders]

Hypothetically, what about the statutory 1h+ delay compensation written into the NRCoT? I assume they're not bound by the NRCoT despite being part of an integrated ticketing offer.

I think you'd struggle to claim anything. Is Stagecoach listed as an operator in the NRCoT. It's similar to a delay caused by the ferry when going to the Isle of Wight.

 

[crablab]

You wouldn’t be entitled to delay repay as the bus operator who delayed you isn’t part of the delay repay scheme.

That doesn't prevent someone seeking damages as a result of the breach of contract, however.

 

[MrJeeves]

How did you prove the RRB was late?

I did the same with GTR and provided a few photos I took at the bus stop with timestamps in Google photos, along with my Google Maps timeline, but this seemed unnecessary based on their reply.

I initially tried the online portal 3 times before writing by email and they issued £30 in travel vouchers for my £10 ticket as an apology for their portal failing and manual review not picking it up.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I did the same with GTR and provided a few photos I took at the bus stop with timestamps in Google photos, along with my Google Maps timeline, but this seemed unnecessary based on their reply.

I initially tried the online portal 3 times before writing by email and they issued £30 in travel vouchers for my £10 ticket as an apology for their portal failing and manual review not picking it up.

Thanks, interesting.

 

[MrJeeves]

Thanks, interesting.

I'll try and dig out the email I sent if I can find it.

Well it appears I sent it via their contact form so I only have their response, which I just noticed came from their HQ Customer Relations centre rather than their outsourced(?) support.

 

[W-on-Sea]

How did you prove the RRB was late?

For the last week, Northampton has enjoyed a RRB service to Milton Keynes.It runs every 10 minutes from around 0400 to the very late evening while the track is rebuilt for a new freight terminal. On R.T.T. a 'schedule' but no 'actual' is always shown. Every journey on NRES arrival boards is shown as 'on time'.

I suppose I didn't prove it! I submitted a Delay Repay claim as usual, and then used the online contact form to contact the Customer Services department of the ToC (GWR) with details of what had happened by way of explanation including the claim's reference number - frankly it was such an egregious error on the part of the RRB driver, than I'm sure that they must already have been aware of what had happened (on a line that normally has an hourly service), even if they didn't know the exact details. The claim was processed quickly and without further question.