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Derby Telegraph "Plans to convert Monsal Trail back into railway takes 'significant step forward'"

yorksrob

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The principal objection is surely the huge cost of this scheme! Has anyone with access to the requisite finance actually expressed any serious interest in the scheme?



IIRC Peak Rail had bases at both ends of the proposed heritage line, but had to relinquish the Buxton end as it was became apparent how unrealistic their plans were; Much as the scheme being discussed here.....

As has been said many times on this forum, such costs aren't unusual for infrastructure projects. Where I suppose I differ is that I think that some of these projects should be regional rail links rather than yet more roads.

You're right, the whole route probably was unrealistic....... For a heritage line.
 
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Dr Hoo

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As someone mentioned upthread, there's a plan to provide an alternative route for the cycle way.
[Sigh] If only we could see this 'plan'.

For those unfamiliar with the Monsal Trail (which I visit quite often for walks and cycle rides) it enjoys a broadly steady gradient of around 1:100, rising from Bakewell, only by virtue of significant engineering works. These include six tunnels and two major viaducts as it crosses and re-crosses the River Wye, often being on a ledge, high above the river. Any alternative trail with similar gradients would also seem to require major works, albeit on a lighter scale (e.g. suspension bridges inside of viaducts). How well this would work for equestrians, wheelchair and mobility scooter users I'm not sure and it would be be a significant landscape issue in a National Park. Presumably there would need to be new large car parks to replicate those at Hassop Station and Millers Dale Station in particular.

Another factor, not often mentioned, is that there are many other 'field' footpaths and bridleways that intersect with and cross the Monsal Trail. Presumably these would all need ramped footbridges or subways across the reinstated railway.
 

yorksrob

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Excellent - ignore the rest of my points - but then again that has been the theme for the last 7 pages!

Your only other point was that Buxton, Matlock etc aren't "large" settlements. Maybe so, but together they're enough population to generate decent rail traffic.
 

yorksrob

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So terminus stations should be outlawed now? Buffer stop allergy strikes again.

Well, I think you'd have difficulty outlawing buffers at Brighton.

But where you have a string of settlements and railway lines at each end, I'd have thought it was sensible not to have a chunk in the middle missing
 

AlastairFraser

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...as are railway costs.

Commodities like freight transport services from different suppliers generally price track because of market competition (and that competition is why freight transport generally has thin profit margins).
Usually freight transports costs are competitive, yes, but the job is increasingly unattractive and HGV drivers are very hard to come by (source - I currently am working in logistics.)
 

dosxuk

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One for those posters who think the line should be re-opened - would you still support a new line between Matlock and Buxton if there wasn't the remains of the previous line?

Secondly, why is there the desire to get Bakewell served by rail, but seemingly little for the much larger towns of Leek and Ashbourne?
 

A0wen

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Usually freight transports costs are competitive, yes, but the job is increasingly unattractive and HGV drivers are very hard to come by (source - I currently am working in logistics.)

Bit in bold - but are still easier to come by, quicker and cheaper to train than train drivers.

Glassdoor reckons the average HGV driver salary is just over £30k compared to £57k for a train driver.
 

A0wen

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Your only other point was that Buxton, Matlock etc aren't "large" settlements. Maybe so, but together they're enough population to generate decent rail traffic.
Only in one direction. Not much of a transport network.

Of course Buxton was never on the Matlock - Manchester mainline, it was a branch off it and Buxton only ever had 'terminus' stations, so even when the line was built Buxton wasn't a traffic destination for it.
 

yorksrob

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One for those posters who think the line should be re-opened - would you still support a new line between Matlock and Buxton if there wasn't the remains of the previous line?

Secondly, why is there the desire to get Bakewell served by rail, but seemingly little for the much larger towns of Leek and Ashbourne?

Yes, assuming there were still links to Buxton and Matlock, I think it would still be worthwhile improving rail links between the areas.

With regard to Leek and Ashbourne, they could well have a good case, however I'm less familiar with the locality, so reserve judgement.
 

AlastairFraser

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For precision manufacturing using 'Just in time' inventory managrment ptinciples perhaps, but industries which are receiving loads that are a couple of thousand tons of aggregates aren't that kind of industry.

And whilst the costs of road transport may be "spiralling" to use your word, the cost of rail transport is so much higher than road that for anything other than the kind of bulk loads rail does well, that such "modal shift" is unlikely to ever occur on economic grounds.
The industry in the area mostly suits the rail transport model though - big bulk loads from quarries and perhaps water bottles to large supermarket distribution centres (especially now that a lot of them are rail connected).
I've also remembered that Highland Spring has proven the concept with water.
 

yorksrob

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Because Traksy is the defacto repository of contractual rights and paths.

I'm guessing that there might be various paths that aren't used very often, but the north WCML still strikes me as an unusual example to illustrate the difficulties of a mixed railway
 

Falcon1200

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the north WCML still strikes me as an unusual example to illustrate the difficulties of a mixed railway

Having been for some years the Network Rail Controller responsible for the Scottish section of the WCML, I would say it very much does illustrate the difficulties of a mixed traffic railway; The Signallers at (as it was then) Motherwell SC (Signalling Centre) had to be, and were, extremely adept at judging the running times of the various types of train and looping slower trains when necessary to keep everything moving. And, outside my jurisdiction, Carlisle SC did the same for their patch (and the Signallers for both areas still do, of course).
 

AlastairFraser

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Bit in bold - but are still easier to come by, quicker and cheaper to train than train drivers.

Glassdoor reckons the average HGV driver salary is just over £30k compared to £57k for a train driver.
Salary is not the issue in terms of cost - it's the whole environment from training to CPCs etc.
And the volumes a train can move compared to a lorry are in a different ballpark (as you acknowledge).
 

yorksrob

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Of course Buxton was never on the Matlock - Manchester mainline, it was a branch off it and Buxton only ever had 'terminus' stations, so even when the line was built Buxton wasn't a traffic destination for it.

Well if you were starting from scratch today, you probably would seek something more direct. However we have what the Victorians left us.

Having been for some years the Network Rail Controller responsible for the Scottish section of the WCML, I would say it very much does illustrate the difficulties of a mixed traffic railway; The Signallers at (as it was then) Motherwell SC (Signalling Centre) had to be, and were, extremely adept at judging the running times of the various types of train and looping slower trains when necessary to keep everything moving. And, outside my jurisdiction, Carlisle SC did the same for their patch (and the Signallers for both areas still do, of course).

Well, it's certainly testament to their skills that they manage to run it so smoothly in that case.

It's still unlikely that regional link through Bakewell would attract the same level of traffic as the WCML.
 

dosxuk

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Well if you were starting from scratch today, you probably would seek something more direct. However we have what the Victorians left us.

The thing is, we pretty much are starting from scratch. The land has been sold to third parties and many of the remaining structures will have been so long without the levels of maintenance required for heavy trains to cross that they will need to be all but rebuilt, if not rebuilt entirely. All the Victorians have left is a pencil mark on a map saying "disused railway".

It's the same with the Sheffield - Stocksbridge route. It doesn't go where the people are, it's not connected to anything useful, but because it's the remains of an old main line, people are desperate to see it being used again.
 

willgreen

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Only in one direction. Not much of a transport network.
To the direction which matters more, though, and there are buses in between (and indeed to a whole host of other local destinations). Do you want a transport network or do you want trains? They’re not the same thing.
 

BrianW

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It's the same with the Sheffield - Stocksbridge route. It doesn't go where the people are, it's not connected to anything useful, but because it's the remains of an old main line, people are desperate to see it being used again.
Sadly wrong- the Sheffield- Stocksbridge route DOES go somewhere the people are- the Conservative voters who voted in the currently Conservative current MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge, Miriam Coates.
 

dosxuk

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Sadly wrong- the Sheffield- Stocksbridge route DOES go somewhere the people are- the Conservative voters who voted in the currently Conservative current MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge, Miriam Coates.

It doesn't - it sticks to the opposite of the river to where the people live, and once it gets to Stocksbridge, it hides away at the bottom of the valley, a long, steep climb away from the expensive houses with their picturesque views that voted for said MP.

If there was a genuine need for a rail link between Hillsborough and Stocksbridge, it would be higher up the hill, on the same side as the homes.
 

A0wen

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Salary is not the issue in terms of cost - it's the whole environment from training to CPCs etc.
And the volumes a train can move compared to a lorry are in a different ballpark (as you acknowledge).

The training costs of an HGV driver are far lower than a train driver. And the ongoing training costs are much lower - a new version of whichever Mercedes / MAN / Scania / Volvo tractor unit enters a fleet does not lead to wholesale retraining of all drivers, whereas a new class of loco or unit on the railways does - that's just an example. HGV drivers usually don't have to undergo expensive route learning - there's another.
 

A0wen

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Well if you were starting from scratch today, you probably would seek something more direct. However we have what the Victorians left us.

By the logic of the bit in bold, why be inhibited by a substandard route the Victorians built ? After all the route through the peaks was only built because the Midland wanted access to Manchester from the East Midlands - so if that's the rationale why, apart from entirely emotional reasons, push for this reopening ?

Why not promote a Buxton - Ashbourne - Derby line ? Or Leicester - Burton - Uttoxeter - Leek - Macclesfield - which completely avoids the national park and would provide direct connectivity from the East Midlands to Manchester ?
 

Bald Rick

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I know, teaching granny to suck eggs.

It was more for the general readership of the thread.

I often end up looking at it waiting for my opening at Carnforth and there really aren't that many trains on most of it. I'd have thought that somewhere on the Southern Region like Orpington to Tonbridge would be a closer example of a busy mixed use railway.

Genuinely - please go and get a job in train planning, and see for yourself what timetabling a mixed traffic railway is like. Rather than using your opinion

The WCML may not seem very busy at any particular point - but the railway is a network, and capacity is managed across all of it. See the ECML - hardly busy at Berwick or Durham, yet there is no spare capacity for more services between Darlington and Edinburgh, as has been in the news recently.

The industry in the area mostly suits the rail transport model though - big bulk loads from quarries and perhaps water bottles to large supermarket distribution centres (especially now that a lot of them are rail connected).
I've also remembered that Highland Spring has proven the concept with water.

But there is already a railway to Buxton. The quarries shift a lot of their output via it. Buxton spring water doesn‘t. Neither are time sensitive. How would a new railway between Buxton and Matlock change that? And what contribution would the freight traffic make to the construction cost of the railway?
 

Nottingham59

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The industry in the area mostly suits the rail transport model though - big bulk loads from quarries and perhaps water bottles to large supermarket distribution centres (especially now that a lot of them are rail connected).
I've also remembered that Highland Spring has proven the concept with water.
Unfortunately there is no supermarket distribution centre that would need a whole train load of one single brand of bottled water at a time.
 

Killingworth

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Realistically when is the earliest date enthusiasts for this project would expect it to be operational?

I ask because railway projects take a very long time even when favoured by whoever is in control. I can't precisely date it because the information came to me from someone who is no longer with us, but he saw plans for redoubling at Dore on the walls of Railtrack's Manchester offices soon after they were formed out of British Rail, certainly by late 1990s. It has taken at least 25 years to get that delivered, including the new loops at Bamford and Dore plus resignalling. Over the 25 years of planning and replanning costs along the way must have added a lot to any figures quoted for the current contract. Over those 25 years passenger and freight traffic has increased and changed. After 6 weeks of operation it's too early to say how effective it will be for both passenger and freight traffic. If it hasn't improved matters in 12 months time that might give a very, very little more weight to this proposal.

We already know that the Hope cement works is due to close in 2042 removing that traffic from the line. (Parts of Tunstead Quarry are within the Peak Park and are planned to be worked out by the same date, but there's plenty more outside the Park.) Rail works best with train loads over long distances. Lorry loads are best over short distances, for smaller orders, from quarries without rail access and/or to customers without rail access. The products coming from the quarries are also more varied than some may imagine so there may not be a lot of scope for removing significant extra amounts off the roads. Currently quite a lot is going to HS2 related contracts.

Peak Rail's original intention was to open the entire line from Buxton to Matlock. Those with long memories may recall the heady days of heritage steam operation at Buxton and the way in the 1980s we were encouraged to donate or buy shares to build a bridge across Charles Street to get access to go south. It was built, although that came to nothing when the site was sold off for a water bottling plant. That's been and gone again for over a decade.. I may once have enthused about trains to Bakewell by 2010, but that was wildly over optimistic, from either end!

Looking at the line in detail there are so many difficult places where large sums would be needed to progress relatively short distances meeting modern heavy freight and passenger requirements. The one that's defeated Peak Rail all these years is the demolished A6 bridge at Rowsley. The problem is not just replacing the bridge over the road. To meet modern standards it would have to be built higher above the road requiring a higher embankment in both directions off the new bridge making potentially more difficult gradients.

But there's another issue, the Grade II listed Rowsley Viaduct over the River Derwent is within 100 metres immediately to the west of the A6, see; http://www.forgottenrelics.org/bridges/rowsley-viaduct/

If the track across the road has to be higher it would not easily fit across that grade II listed viaduct. That's to progress a mile beyond the end of Peak Rail's laid rails. The Haddon Estate is then opposed to the railway’s reinstatement so getting to Bakewell is rather a challenge. Running a line through the old repurposed Bakewell station would be tricky too. When I was filled with enthusiasm for getting there I hadn't looked at the practical details, from either end. I have now. Not totally insurmountable but difficult, time consuming and very expensive.

All along the line there are other awkward details that wouldn't be cheap to fix.

Across the country there are frequent landslips where Victorian infrastructure is collapsing even when regularly maintained and monitored. The money that would be needed for this project needs allocating to maintaining all the existing routes and making more modest interventions to ease bottlenecks - especially around central Manchester and the approaches from all directions!
 
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yorksrob

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Realistically when is the earliest date enthusiasts for this project would expect it to be operational?

I ask because railway projects take a very long time even when favoured by whoever is in control. I can't precisely date it because the information came to me from someone who is no longer with us, but he saw plans for redoubling at Dore on the walls of Railtrack's Manchester offices soon after they were formed out of British Rail, certainly by late 1990s. It has taken at least 25 years to get that delivered, including the new loops at Bamford and Dore pus resignalling. Over the 25 years of planning and replanning costs along the way must have added a lot to any figures quoted for the current contract. Over those 25 years passenger and freight traffic has increased and changed. After 6 weeks of operation it's too early to say how effective it will be for both passenger and freight traffic. If it hasn't improved matters in 12 months time that might give a very, very little more weight to this proposal.

We already know that the Hope cement works is due to close in 2042 removing that traffic from the line. (Parts of Tunstead Quarry are within the Peak Park and are planned to be worked out by the same date, but there's plenty more outside the Park.) Rail works best with train loads over long distances. Lorry loads are best over short distances, for smaller orders, from quarries without rail access and/or to customers without rail access. The products coming from the quarries are also more varied than some may imagine so there may not be a lot of scope for removing significant extra amounts off the roads. Currently quite a lot is going to HS2 related contracts.

Peak Rail's original intention was to open the entire line from Buxton to Matlock. Those with long memories may recall the heady days of heritage steam operation at Buxton and the way in the 1980s we were encouraged to donate or buy shares to build a bridge across Charles Street to get access to go south. It was built, although that came to nothing when the site was sold off for a water bottling plant. That's been and gone again for over a decade now. I may once have enthused about trains to Bakewell by 2010, but that was wildly over optimistic, from either end!

Looking at the line in detail there are so many difficult places where large sums would be needed to progress relatively short distances meeting modern heavy freight and passenger requirements. The one that's defeated Peak Rail all these years is the demolished A6 bridge at Rowsley. The problem is not just replacing the bridge over the road. To meet modern standards it would have to be built higher above the road requiring a higher embankment in both directions off the new bridge making potentially more difficult gradients.

But there's another issue, the Grade II listed Rowsley Viaduct over the River Derwent is within 100 metres immediately to the west of the A6, see; http://www.forgottenrelics.org/bridges/rowsley-viaduct/

If the track across the road has to be higher it would not easily fit across that grade II listed viaduct. That's to progress a mile beyond the end of Peak Rail's laid rails. The Haddon Estate is then opposed to the railway’s reinstatement so getting to Bakewell is rather a challenge. Running a line through the old repurposed Bakewell station would be tricky too. When I was filled with enthusiasm for getting there I hadn't looked at the practical details, from either end. I have now. Not totally insurmountable but difficult, time consuming and very expensive.

All along the line there are other awkward details that wouldn't be cheap to fix.

Across the country there are frequent landslips where Victorian infrastructure is collapsing even when regularly maintained and monitored. The money that would be needed for this project needs allocating to maintaining all the existing routes and making more modest interventions to ease bottlenecks - especially around central Manchester and the approaches from all directions!

Alternatively, how long did it take to plan and build the Hazel Grove curve ?

I say that because I'm guessing that it wasn't as long as the twenty years it's taken to re-double Dore. Perhaps the long lead in time has something to do with the way the railway is managed, rather than an inherent problem with railway building.

Anyhow, saying that things will take too long seems like an excuse to do nothing.

Genuinely - please go and get a job in train planning, and see for yourself what timetabling a mixed traffic railway is like. Rather than using your opinion

The WCML may not seem very busy at any particular point - but the railway is a network, and capacity is managed across all of it. See the ECML - hardly busy at Berwick or Durham, yet there is no spare capacity for more services between Darlington and Edinburgh, as has been in the news recently.

Great, where do I sign up.

But I'm assuming that you're not denying that we do manage with mixed use railways and I'm assuming that you agree that this line won't be as heavily used as the West Coast Main Line, so why are so many people on this thread using the fact that this route would be mixed traffic as a reason that this one somehow wouldn't work ?

To the direction which matters more, though, and there are buses in between (and indeed to a whole host of other local destinations). Do you want a transport network or do you want trains? They’re not the same thing.

I want a transport network. Trains are a key part of a transport network to carry medium and longer distance passengers.

The thing is, we pretty much are starting from scratch. The land has been sold to third parties and many of the remaining structures will have been so long without the levels of maintenance required for heavy trains to cross that they will need to be all but rebuilt, if not rebuilt entirely. All the Victorians have left is a pencil mark on a map saying "disused railway".

It's the same with the Sheffield - Stocksbridge route. It doesn't go where the people are, it's not connected to anything useful, but because it's the remains of an old main line, people are desperate to see it being used again.

The route has a lot of infrastructure. A lot will need to be repaired, some will need to be replaced but not all. Quite a different prospect from driving a completely new route through the landscape.

I personally think that this line would be far more useful to people than Woodhead. It has far more potential for local and intermediate services as there are more settlements to be joined.
 
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